ptr_5

Here's the situation, the temperature is down in the mid to high 30's and my summer tires are obviously just about useless. I need to order my Snows this weekend, but it will probably be a week or so before I have the tires on the car. Now, the question is, is it possible to drive the car smoothly with the TCS on? I find the TCS to be so disconcerting, and while I can probably catch the car should I find myself on any surface where I have even the slightest traction, I have left the TCS on so far because of the low temperatures and fear of hitting black ice. I figure that it is probably wise given that I have not had a lot of time with the car yet (only about 500 miles, 450 of which were probably spent on the freeway...) and have not had a chance to sort out the dynamics of the car at it's limits (that is, with the TCS turned off). The problem is that the TCS is making me feel like the world's most inept driver. So, while I already know that with the TCS active, it is pretty much impossible to be smooth in a situation where one has exceeded the available traction, I was wondering how everyone else deals with it. I mean, just when your driving instincts have you committed to correcting for oversteer, the car makes it's horrible TCS noises and you find yourself wondering whether or not you've broken your beautiful new car. So, do I just turn off my brain and anticipate the TCS's little castigations? Or is there a trick to driving a neutral car(in terms of weight distribution and oversteering/understeering predilections) with TCS in a low traction setting? Afterall, if anything is going to prematurely end my life, it's the TCS; my heart and my ego just cannot take it.

ptr_5

Loaded8

LOL... that is so funny. I felt the same way the other day. I know I was going too fast for the turn on the wet road but I didn't realize I was going too fast until I had already started to turn. It's not a pretty noise but I probably would have done a 360 without it. Either way no harm, no cars around but I had to stop and look at the car it sounded like the body had impacted the ground. It didn't. I guess the noise will be like aversion therapy. :D

zevans

Careful now...

Are we talking about TCS (traction control; the removal of power to the wheels when the driver is on the throttle, to prevent power oversteer) or DSC (dynamic stability control -braking individual wheels when slip angle exceeds a certain threshold)

There's probably some other stuff goes on too.

Loaded8 - sounds like it was DSC that saved you, not TCS... those brakes make a big noise when they're working in ABS mode, which is effectively what they are doing on the unloaded side of the car. When you -are- on the limit the car is actually -more- nervous with DSC on - but you have to try much harder to get through that limit and you're unlikely to do it accidentally.

Try finding an empty car park and driving in tighter and tighter circles at about 20mph in 2nd gear... you'll feel and hear DSC working for sure.

If you hit the DSC button you turn DSC off and leave TCS on - unless you hold it in for 8 seconds and then both are off.

Anyway, all that aside, the trick to driving a balanced car is that it does what you tell it with the throttle. So, use balanced throttle unless you are driving arrow straight. The particular thing you need to adapt to in the 8 is lift-off oversteer - if you come off the throttle with any kind of steering input at all that steering input will be exaggerated.

In other words, complete all braking and gearshifts BEFORE turn-in if it's at all wet or icy.

Remember also the 8 has an LSD which can have strange effects if one wheel has grip and the other does not...

ptr_5

Well, I probably shouldn't have just called it the TCS as the DSC has also scolded me one or two times lately, but since they use the same button, I kind of lump them together. Sure, it's not technically correct, but it is the TCS that is more intrusive in *my* daily commute. I have been driving long enough to know that you never want to be on the brakes (or shifting for that matter) when you're going into most turns (there are always a few tricky exceptions though), my problem for the moment at least, is power-on oversteer. A goodly part of the problem is that I don't have the torque curves of the renesis committed to memory and I find myself goosing the throttle a bit too much in the wrong part of the rev range. Obviously, this can be chalked up to inexperience with the car. Although, I think that the LSD is freakin' me out too! <grin>

ptr_5

ptr_5

It was a little warmer today (probably no more than 5 degrees), but the difference was night and day. Either my TCS/DSC fell asleep or it was much more understanding today. It actually is possible to be quasi-smooth with the TCS on, the tires just have to have enough traction for the computer to control a slide/wheelspin without it resorting to a full ABS clamp-down on the offending wheel(s). The DSC will even allow a bit of sideways drift/power slide so long as the slip angle doesn't exceed a certain threshold. I was wondering why the car didn't feel quite as composed as it did on my three test drives and well, I guess that I have my answer. The temp was probably in the 40 to 45 degree range when I test drove the car and obviously, the OEM Potenzas just hit a wall around 38 degrees and become useless chunks of rubber. I mean the precipitous loss of traction is really rather shocking. The same thing used to happen to the Conti SportContacts that I had on a previous car, but I haven't dared to run summer tires in November for almost eight years and I guess that it was a rather foolish to expect a better outcome this time around. Unfortunately, I didn't have a set of 225/45-18 snows just lying around the house and I have had to drive the car the last two weeks on the summer tires (okay, I didn't have to drive the car, but who buys a new RX-8 and promptly parks it until they buy snow tires? No one has that kind of self-control). Anyway, for those of you fortunate enough to live in warmer climes, or who have the foresight to have changed their tires before the onset of cold weather, just ignore me, for the rest of you, I suggest that you get some snows, or at least some all-seasons. That is, unless you like to the scolded by the TCS.

ptr_5

beachdog

ptr_5
1. You are supposed to be breaking in the car for the first 600+ miles, not learning the limits of its abilities. (its abilities in cold weather with summer tires is very limited, not even on par with your most basic econobox)

2. Stay off the road until you get the correct tires for your weather and road conditions. I won't be sending condolences if you crash before rectifying the tire situation.

BTW, spend some time reading the more technical sections of the forum. The more accurately you express yourself, the better the responses will be. If you mean DSC then say DSC, not TCS.

ptr_5

Well, I'm no idiot. The car already has 1200 some odd miles on it. I am not out romping on the thing, and I didn't even rev past 6k before hitting the 1000 mile mark (it took quite a bit of self-control, but I did manage). Sure, Racing Beat's recommendation is to keep it under 4k in the first 1000 miles, but the car is practically undriveable in that range and sometimes you have to exceed it just to get onto the freeway. Still, I don't rev the car past 5-6k before it reaches temperature and I'm not out there playing Hans Stuck on the slick stuff. I have yet to redline the car or accelerate under full throttle and I keep the revs, for the most part, south of the 7500 line. The vast majority of my miles have been tallied running back and forth on the freeway at 3400 rpm's in sixth gear. When I get off the freeway, however, the TCS does kick in on slick roads (I do know the difference, and I can also assure you that the car will spin it's tires and try to walk out if you start from anywhere north of 2500-3000 rpm when the road temps are low), the DSC will also kick in if you try to make a standard right hand turn at faster than 20-25 mph. Oh, and anyone who's driven the RX-8 will tell you that trying to start the car from a stop below 2500 rpms is hit or miss at best. The TCS and DCS are not some sort of omniscient force which spares one from the inevitable, if they were, then no one in their right mind would ever turn them off. They are a driver aid, placed on cars to assist those with little to no actual driving ability. They are on the car, not for the people who know how to drive (afterall, people managed to drive the original 930 Turbos long before traction control and dynamic stability control existed and those were, along with the gullwing, some of the most notoriously difficult to drive production cars in history), but for the people who prefer to talk on their cell phones while driving well beyond their limited abilities. Frankly, the TCS (and yes, I mean TCS) has lectured me often enough and I didn't really intend on being lectured by another forum member (save that for the children who egg your house at night). I have seen more than enough of that condescending BS on this and every other forum to truly nauseate me. What I asked was whether or not there was some means of driving the car smoothly when the TCS and/or DCS kick in abruptly. Obviously, when the car makes a loud, unfamiliar noise and seemingly stops cold, one's first instinct is to do what anyone does when their actions meet with an unexpected and unpleasant result- stop everything and freeze while trying to figure out what just happened. Now, this doubtless compounds the problem as dropping the throttle suddenly or stepping on the brake leads to an even more abrupt cessation of forward and/or lateral progress and as such, a total and complete lack of smoothness. Even if I had the snow tires on the car already, I can guarantee that I will encounter more than a few occassions this winter where the TCS will interrupt my drive, and depending on conditions, I would imagine that the DCS will butt in from time to time as well. So, rather than jumping to conclusions and chasitizing anyone new to the forums as though they were some green 17 year old who dreams of NOS and full smoking burnouts, add something constructive or keep your annoying misdirects to yourself. In fact, why don't the moderators just save all of you abnoxious, counterproductive posters the trouble and rename every forum: "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION YOU STUPID NEWBIE ****!" I think that would achieve your goal, no?

To everyone else who is actually helpful, I thank you and apologize for my rant. Next time I will try my best to include evidence culled from my Racepak data acquisition system so as to better express any problem which I may encounter. Hopefully that will spare everyone the ordeal of having to witness another self-important post like the one above.

ptr_5

PS Perosonally, I now consider this subject closed, but if people can't restrain themselves and want to start a flame war, they will be disappointed to realize that they are arguing with an empty thread.

grapes

ptr 5 -Good posts and thoughts on traction control & DSC. Keep up the good work. Don't let the few idiots on this forum dampen your enthusiasm-

beachdog

/\ /\ /\

Exactly the response I expected from you and exactly why I wrote what I wrote.

I am not going to go through your rant point by point but I have even less regard for you now than after your first post because you are still driving around on weather inappropriate tires.

You want constructive advice? Load your 8 onto a trailer and bring it to a track, rent some time and practice your responses to the systems that are plaguing you. Or, press the DSC button for ten seconds after starting and then they won't bother you anymore.

xoxoxoxox

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

jesus, just slow the hell down on public roads and you'll be fine. I've been driving around in 20 degree weather with my summer tires without a problem - if your constantly challenging the TCS/DSC on public roads then your probably driving like a moron and your going to crash either way.

ptr_5

Since we seem to have inadvertently wandered into the "I am a wayward adult who desperately needs a father figure" forum, I suppose that I will have to take in stride the constructive criticism that has been offered. But, if we are going to be pedants, let's at least show some consistency. So, as it says TCS in the header of the post, let's keep the subject to TCS, shall we? Let's also assume that, in spite of the fact that it is totally ridiculous to trailer my car out to the drag strip to practice street starts at 2500rpm, I am doing so tomorrow in order to learn the reponses of my car. With that being said, I can obviously go no slower than 0 mph, so I would have to assume that slowing the car down on public roads is also out of the question as well. Now, do we have any advice for driving the car smoothly when the *TCS* kicks in abruptly? I only ask so that I will not waste my time and money at the dragstrip pursuing needless combinations of throttle and/or clutch pressure and can thus benifit from the sagacity of the self-appointed paternal figures eager to dispense their advice.

ptr_5

PS If I were feeling petty, I could point out that were you expecting my exact response, you wasted everyone's time with your spiel regarding Mazda's recommended break-in period. (whoops, I seem to have accidentally pointed it out, I apologize... I guess you're not psychic and I'm not totally above being petty <smile>) I could also point out that the appropriateness of my tires has little to do with it as there will always be situations in which one will exceed the threshhold of the TCS/DSC system, especially in the winter. Afterall, I do not have the liberty to change tires based upon the road conditions of each particular stage as they do in WRC- I really doubt that I could find ice tires anyway, even if they were legal on public roads. The fact of the matter is that public roads can never be expected to have uniform characteristics and despite one's best efforts to the contrary, they will encounter tricky situations even to the point of vastly different grip levels on each wheel. As such, any real advice would be appreciated. I myself said that I needed snow tires in the second sentence of my post, so pointing it out over and over again as though you have, through some mystical wisdom gleened from the decades of harsh Orlando winters with your 2004 RX-8, finally attained parinirvana. I thank you for having remained on this plane to assist us lower mortals to achieve enlightenment.

zevans

Wow, what happened here? :D

Okay... I just wanted to check you knew what you were talking about before we started a real discussion. It looks like you do. (There are a lot of RX8 owners here that don't do advanced driving.) So...

The Bridgestones are terrible tyres IMHO. This may not be helping, TCS or no TCS. I drove home in almost-freezing rain yesterday - it was 38 Fahrenheit - and it felt like I had no-name remoulds on it.

beachdog, it -will- step out at low speeds and normal driving situations when the weather is cold and wet. Lecture therefore unneccessary.

You can educate yourself to "drive through" the interference. I'd say the TCS allows as much of a slip angle as I'd care to get into on public roads, but only if you steel yourself to ignore it when it kicks in. There is a massive temptation to try and correct the correction, and I couldn't get over that until I took it on the track and experimented properly.

DSC basically prevents you from using the brakes to turn the car, so I switch that off for spirited driving every time.

Some asides... running in - I think you are doing the right thing. Noodling around under 4000 revs for 600 miles seems like a good way to coke everything up before you've even started, so like you, I didn't do that.

I find taking normal left turns (UK equivalent of right turns) OK up until about 25mph too and then things do squirm a little. You can get round a lot faster if the road is empty and you choose your lines accordingly of course.

Dragging doesn't do it for me so I haven't experimented much with hard launches, not even on the track.

The TCS is unpredictable on slippy surfaces - I had to switch it off when I was parking on wet grass at a meet yesterday. The problem with it is it stops the wheels spinning - but sometimes you -want- the wheels to spin in situations like that.

There you go -some more thoughts on your interesting posts. I'd love to see some data logging from an 8!

dmp

I don't know you. But you seem like a dick.

(shrug).

Perception is reality. How one is percieved, even online, is reality for people looking. Instead of answering his questions/entering into discussion, you decide to show the rest of the world how 'smart' or 'capable' you are.



Why can't people just be NICE. Really?

beachdog

ptr_5, I guess that I'll refer to you as professor for now on. Had to look up a few words.

My screen address is Orlando FL. Let's just say that my driving experience is far more varied than that. For what it is worth, temperatures over night, winter temperatures, high humidity, road surface oil, sand and other conditions all contribute to situations when the tires are out of their design envelope, even in Orlando.

Since you have experienced numerous occasions with the TCS kicking in, are they still "unexpected"? There's bound to be some jostling when the computer control takes over (TCS or DSC). Add into that the drive by wire throttle and things get exacerbated. With ABS, most people get off the brakes when it kicks in which is the opposite reaction necessary to keep the system engaged. Are you letting off the gas when the TCS kicks in? Try staying on the throttle constant pressure. If the TCS sees that you still want to accelerate it should be able to find the amount of torque to deliver based on the amount of traction available.

Do you always launch at 2500 rpms? Why not launch at 1200-1500 rpms and feather in more throttle as the tires hook up? Avoid the TCS altogether.

Sorry about the attitude, but you came on like a newbie engaging in risky behavior and then a week later post that they wrapped their 8 around some roadside hazard. With all the 8's accumulating in the junk yards the insurance isn't going to stay low for long.