Trojan[Z]

will you guys knock it off with the hog comment for the Z,my Z is low to the ground weighs about 3100lb compared to the 8's 3010lb and handles beautifully,like i said i test drove both and they both feel pretty great in the handling department, and you guys overreact when comparing the Z and the 8...saying the Z would fall of the cliff and i and my passenger would die lol when in reality the Z will out lap an 8 and yea we all know that .If there is any reason you guys call it a hog is because it does have a roundish shape,but this is a shape thats inspired by the 911 hence the similar round butt,so if the Z looks like a hog then the 911 weighing in at 3075lb would be considered a hog as well,you guys speak of the Z as if it weighs in at 4000 pounds

Aoshi Shinomori

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/nissa...D20LNsQF?p=ext

Ther base model weighs in much closer to 3200, some of the other models such as the anniversary edition weigh in at about 3250 250 pounds can make a big difference in performance. I disagree about the Z beating it around a track, on unbiased forums such as clubrsx, I read about RX8's wasting Z's around the track. It simply does not handle like the 8 does. Sure it's got a large 6 under the hood so it goes fast in a straight line. Not everyone likes that, the Z is a great car with a different purpose in mind though. I could take buy an EVO 8 for about the same price as a Z or 8 and it would beat them both in most things, but not everyone wants that kind of car.

Fanman

Curb Weights (Per Nissan 350Z Brochure)

350 Z = 3,188
Enthusiast Model = 3,197
Performance Model = 3,217
Touring Model Model = 3,247
Track Model = 3,225

RX 8 (6 sp.) = 3,029

The difference is about 200 lbs. for any of the decent models. In tests the 350Z Track had very similar skidpad, but slower slaloms times. The 350Z Track had similar stopping distances (60-0 & 100-0). But if you have a "regular" or any other model 350Z you are giving up the Brembo brake package (basically over 1" on both front & rear, and 4 pistons up front) as well as the sportier suspension settings, and bigger tires (than the 350Z & Enthusiast model). The RX8 would clearly outhandle, and outbreak any 350Z model, except the track model.

The issue that I have with your statements (as well as another poster on this board) is that you presume to tell us that a 350Z is a high performance car, and an RX8 is not. Or that the Z will outlap an RX8 when it really depends on what type of track you are on. How else do you explain the Stig on Top Gear getting the same exact time with the RX8, that he did with the 350Z ? Same driver, same conditions, same exact time. Like I said, you give me a tight, small track like Streets of Willow (small track) and I bet I could turn better times in the RX8. When you make blanket statements expect a rebuttal.

DrKillJoY

my comments are only based on the fact that I have witnessed first hand the under-steering phenomenon known as the 350Z.

At high speeds it "pushes" through turns, again it goes VERY fast and yes, possibly faster than the 8, but if the turn is too tight your going to be kissing gravel.

mysql101

I think what you're missing is that they have to get in their jabs while they can.

The RX-8 is clearly underpowered compared to the competition. There are no real performance upgrades available that make significant power. It isn't a matter of "if" the RX-8 aftermarket scene will allow us to get 350 - 600 horsepower, it's a matter of "when", and also consider lots of people are going to wait for their warrantees run out.

Phlash

The 8 on the track is an eye opener. We ran Road Atlanta in October against the likes of Z's Vette's, 911's, etc and surprised a lot of folks by running with or better than the afore mentioned auto's. The last run we had three of us climbing all over a vette and passing a 911. Afterwords, the owners came by and gave us the thumbs up and stated that they had a entire new appreciation for the the 8. That's a hell of a compliment. Those that have never had the chance to be in an 8 on the track have no idea what their missing and what an absolute hoot the car can be at speed.

I drove the Z, G35 coupe, Evo, and WRX prior to getting my 8. They are all nice cars in their own ways. But none of those yelled out to me and said "welcome in, wanna play?" like the 8 did......I luv my 8. Track day at Road Atlanta repeats this Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Put your $ where your mouth is, come join us..........

Ike

You're right with most of your statements. Many of the RX-8 guys here act like they have some super light car and it's simply not the case. They are both great cars and handle great, but the 8 does feel noticably lighter even though the difference isn't all that much. About the Z outlapping an 8 being a fact, you're the one being a little overzealous there.

dmp

Frankly, my $5,000 miata WAY out-handles my RX8. (shrug). I bet it'd take a 350 to school too - on the right course. :D

Handling is so subjective, anyway. When I used to drive 93 Probe GT I would RAVE about the handling. Now I can't imagine driving a car with worse handling than my RX8 - which is about the minimum in responsiveness for my tastes.



Trojan - have you weighed your car? with you in it?

SilverEIGHT

I plan to come and watch the fun. Is there a reserved place on the infield for the RX8 Club?

Phlash

we had a group right in the center of all the action last time. They let us (the 8's) run together last time. we have drivers in group c and b this time....should be a hoot!

We had the next biggest showing next to the Vette's last time.....we shouldn't be hard to find!

BillK

And as I said, the Porschephiles, while vocal, are not the ones keeping Porsche afloat. They're not the ones who bought Boxsters, and they're not the ones keeping the doors open by buying Cayennes today (without which, despite the cries and moans of the Porsche faithful, their annual US sales for the past two years would have been virtually nil.)

Jaisin

I wish I had the chance to drive a Z so I could comment also.

crossbow

You guys are so passionate about your cars . I've said it in other posts, and I'll say it again.

Neither the Z, the 8, or the M3 are fast cars. The C6, the Viper, the 360 moderna, the Enzo...none of these are fast cars. The lotus elise? Nope, not a fast car.

Why? WTF am I smoking? Because without a driver, those expensive toys are nothing more then shiny paperweights.

Its the driver that makes a vehicle fast, the vehicle just exists to allow the driver to push his or her envelope. Some car's allow this envelope to be pushed further then others, but the envelope is part of the drivers ability, not the cars.

Without proper driving skills, an enzo ferrari is no faster then a Civic Type R, no matter how impressive its statistics are.

There is no way to understand this without investigating proper driver training. Nobody is a flawless driver, anyone who argues otherwise has never truely driven. There is always room for improvement, and there will always be someone better and faster then you are...even in your own car.

Being passed or beaten by another car hardly ever has anything to do with the type of car, but everything to do with the skills of the driver. If a Mazda 6 passes a BMW M3 or a 911 on VIR, does it mean the 6 is a faster car? Or does it mean that the driver behind the Mazda 6 is more experienced then the relatively new driver behind the wheel of the porsche on his first ever track day.

On most road courses, you have to signal to allow someone to pass you. Its not the car that signals you its ok to pass...its the DRIVER.

Mod the driver, not the car, and you'll forever benefit from suspension, power, handling, and braking improvements on every vehicle you drive, regardless of modifications.

One course thats pretty good to start out with is the Evolution Autocrossing school. As part of the class, national champions take your car around the course, with you in it. Its incredible to see how slow you are, (due to your own lack of skill) vs an experienced driver in your own car. You quickly realize that you could spent 10,000 dollars on improvements on your vehicle trying to make it faster, or just get a good couple of days of seat time with driver instruction

http://www.autocross.com/evolution/

G8rboy

I couldn't agree with crossbow more... autocrossing my Miata helped me understand this, and watching skilled drivers with 100hp cars whoop Vipers, 'Vettes and the like made me believe.

jsh1120

Crossbow...Excellent post and right on target. Having ridden motorcycles for nearly 40 years, I learned long ago that the best "performance investment" one can make in a bike is rider education. In addition to increasing the bike's performance, it has the added benefit of being easily transferred from one bike to another. Not so with engine and suspension mods.

Of course, neither bike nor auto manufacturers profit directly from improved rider/driver performance. Thus, each group (and the media they support) emphasize the latest "improvements" in their products with the implied promise that the machine can compensate for the rider's/driver's inadequacies. Unfortunately, American consumers would rather believe they can buy performance off-the-shelf rather than investing in the more difficult task of improving their skills.

Having aged sufficiently to overcome the effects of testosterone poisoning, I'm amused by the numerous posts focused exclusively on the relative effectiveness of pushing one's right foot to the floor in various vehicles.

SilverEIGHT

I'm sold! I will be looking at the July in Atlanta. Thanks!

Hard 8

Crossbow is right, of course. I'm not a race car driver, but I have spent enough seat time at Laguna Seca and other California road courses, being passed by "slower" cars and passing "faster" cars, to know that the driver's skill is a huge factor. Not the only factor, but a huge one.

However, and not to be too much of a stickler, the focus of this thread is upon whether, all else being equal, including the driver, the RX-8 can hold its own against a Z car. I think that Crossbow knows this but decided to ignore the question and emphasize driver skills anyway, because a lot of "enthusiasts" tend to gloss over that major variable as if it were irrelevant.

I sympathize with Crossbow's perspective but unfortunately it completely sidesteps the focus of this thread. Yes, a great driver can attain decent lap times in a Yugo and a lousy driver can crawl around the track in an Evo VIII (I've seen it done, and passed him myself), but what about a great driver in an RX-8? Can he keep up with "himself" in a Z? That is the question here.

And the answer to the actual question at issue here, according to various tests by professional drivers at Road & Track, Top Gear, Car and Driver, etc., is that yes, he can. The lap times that a single professional driver achieved, again and again, in each car, showed virtually no significant difference.

The other point of this thread is that Nissan dealers can be idiots. And it's true. When I was shopping the 8 against a G35C, the Nissan/Infiniti dealer told me that the G35 "can run rings around" the RX-8, wich, we all know, is crap, again, assuming the identical driver in each car. I think he had no idea what an RX-8 was. He just filled in the blank in his stock response.

Sorry to be such a stickler, but sometimes I grow tired of being reminded, again and again, that the driver is a critical component, and that professional instruction is a critical factor. But I suppose it is a point that is worth repeating, even ad nauseum.

dmp

That is a very, very, very good reply.

Jaisin

Amazingly a lot of people don't know what the 8 is, or the get it confused with RSX.

jsh1120

Interesting that you'd make this point. I'm relatively new around here having been monitoring the board for only a few months and being an RX-8 owner for only a couple of weeks, but my impression is decidedly in the other direction.

I was impressed by Crossbow's point because I see it made relatively infrequently, and seldom as well as he made it. Instead, I've been struck by the number of rather naive posts that seem to assume that the issue is primarily one of one marque versus another, largely without reference to the skill of the driver.

(Have to admit that this board is not nearly so afflicted by such nonsense as a number of other boards I visited while deciding on a purchase of the RX-8, however. One reason that I ultimately decided that the RX-8 might be worth a look. From the posts to IS300 boards, for example, it appears that the car is sold exclusively to adolescent males, not to mention the population of boards devoted to the 350Z, STI, and Evo. )

On second thought, however, it may just be that many posters simply assume they are excellent drivers so the question of skill is irrelevant. Considering that something like 90% of American drivers consider themselves "above average," that wouldn't be a surprise.

Hard 8

No question about it; many purported enthusiasts completely omit the driver from their calculus. But that wasn't what this thread was supposed to be about.

I was just feeling a little testy this morning. Perhaps I've read that kind of speech one time too many on the Miata.Net forum, and it's just a tiny bit patronizing.

Oops! There I go again. Bad me! :o

Hard 8

Thanks, mon! I was expecting to get lambasted for it.

dmp

You hit the nail on the head, imo - and summed up the practical result of comparing the cars:

Comparing the 350z, S2000, and RX8, among others, is like comparing SuperSport bikes...

Frankly, they are all different instruments playing the same song.

Top'sRX8

Let's go kick his ***!!!!!!!!!

Virgil

God damn it, I hate it when dealers do that. I find myself, 18 year old, filling in the blanks of much of what the dealers are trying to tell me about there cars, I would say that is pretty freaking sad.

-S2000, higher rever, light weight, no torque (can we say an RX-8 w/an inline 4?)
-350z, torque, more hp, heavy, front engine car (To each his own, I don't like the way it looks)
-RX-8, looks like a million bucks, bang for your buck, functional, lightweight, excellent chassis, a canyon carver (biased I am not ).

Also, all you teenage bastards with RX 8's, bite me. :D


I couldn't agree more about the RX-8 vs. 350z argument, they are both very equal in performance, one is a twisty sex toy of a car and the other is a Brute of a straighline. Personally, I like the high-reving sex toy to the brute.

ALso, to the guy that stated "Did you know that the RX-8 was voted second GAYest car!" were the hell did you get that statistic, from the forums you crawled out of?

Also, driver it wise it really depends on your style of driving when switching between each car. If you have been driving cars with a higher torque ratio like the 350z or mustang with a relatively low revs then you may end up missing the point of an 8's 9000rpm, the same witht he S2000.

I like the looks of the 8 and the uniqueness of the rotary, although I do like zed cars being fancier of the 240zx myself. Also, what did that car do to all the other muscle cars of the day, lets ponder this one. Nissan came out with a lightwieght, low hp car (roughly 90 on dynos) and what do you get, a muscle car spanker on the track. Sure, it couldn't beat a muscle car in a straight line but for a guy who fancies porche's and lotus cars who needs high hp when your rounding turns faster then the other guy?

I like high revs and rotaries, the unconventional in a sense. If you like torque go ahead. Whichever I choose, the Rx-8 or the Evo, both will be the fastest cars I have ever owned and both will please me.