Thats because they're just like him. ^^^

I actually find it kinda funny that such a "lower powered" car can hang with the "big dogs" on the track.

 

Its no secret that everyone is looking for a powerful rotary again, be it another 7, a 9, or a MS8. It seems to me the 8 is great for the masses, it has something for everybody, but im tired of compromises. Pending the reliability of the renesis, i hope the RX8 has done enough for some factory sponsored boost.

If not...i will be boosting my FC and go from there.

 

Ike you have always sounded very proud of your WRX, that's not a bad thing.

I myself take great pride in my 8.

The thing is whenever something is engineered to one extreme or another something has to give. For example the 8's is power is less than other cars in its classs, but handling and drivability is excellent. Traction is not as good as an all wheel drive vehicle, but we don't have understeer that comes with all wheel drive. Obviously Mazda wasn't going for a horsepower monster or a quarter mile king. They made an excellent handling, easy to drive, nice on the eyes vehicle that doesn't beat a person up if they want to drive it for a long distance.

I have never seen a review that mocked the 8's handling. What I have seen is the 8 as a benchmark for handling and driveability.

It is good to compare and point out differences, that is how we improve. Pointing and laughing does not show intelligence, only ignorance.

I'm curious Ike have you ever driven an RX-8?

I hear you say you respect the 8 but for some reason I always get the notion that your just saying that by the tone you relay in your responses.

 

I think people that worry about dyno's need to all get Supras, so they can feel like they are big men, with their 1,000 horsepower cars, that wouldn't even come on boil until 5K.

There will always be people that worry about one thing or another. Some people like straight lines, some people like curves. I'm sure that most of you have seen it, but in Top Gear, the RX-8 ran the same time as the mighty 350Z, and the M3. To me that shows something. I bet people on the 350 forums talk a lot of junk about the 8, but in a mixed track with straights and tight turns, the 8 will hold it's own.

 

I like my WRX quite a bit, that doesn't mean I'm blinded by and, there are things I don't like about it and will readily admit those things. I have driven the 8 and liked it but the thing that stood out the most was the lack of power, which is a subjective thing. When I test drove the car it was rated at 247hp, the first thing that came to my mind when I went through the gears was there was no way that could be right. Had it been rated at 220hp I would have known what to expect going in. No matter what the number said on the sticker, it just didn't have enough get up and go for me. However I did love the handling and felt the car was great overall.

I chose to not consider it because I knew I wanted more power and that need for power would just get greater as I owned the car longer, I think that's better than the guys that buy it and then months later whine about how underpowered the car is... Before you start thinking I'm just some power hungry streetracer let me say that I started racing karts at a very young age and later raced 125cc shifter karts and did regular trackdays with E30/E36 M3s and my DSM once I was old enough. I also realize that in everyday driving it's far safer and more fun to use the power of a car than it is to test its handling limits.

No, Mazda wasn't going for a horsepower monster, but early on the car was rumored to have 280hp, even Mazda's early press releases used that number. Then as time passed the number came down to 250hp, then 247hp, then 238, and now most have realized that 238 is quite generous. That is a large reason for the bashing of the car on other automotive forums.

A lot of it is just ignorant bashing, but in large part it's Mazda's fault for flubbing their numbers so much. Despite what many may think of me, I have often defended the RX-8 from that ignorance, I don't like to see misinformation on any car. Much of what sells a car is image and in the import scene, street cred (<-- I know that sounds stupid but it's true), and Mazda has done plenty to screw up the image of the RX-8. From the horsepower numbers, to the constant reflashes, early flooding problems, and the gas mileage that didn't come anywhere near the epa numbers, then there's the whole rotary stigma that the FD created.

What's funny is you will see guys with slower cars than the RX-8 regularly call it underpowered. No one expects much from their Celica GTS, it's never been anything overly impressive. It's an expectation thing, the RX-8 was expected to be more like the RX-7, it was expected to have more hp, it was also expected to have at least the claimed hp number once it was lowered from 280 and then from 247.

Had Mazda not blundered so many things I see no reason why the RX-8 couldn't still be selling 2000+ units a month and we wouldn't be having this discusion.

 

The next time I drive to work on a racetrack I'll care... It is possible to have a good bit of horsepower and a car that handles really well. So many of you guys talk like it's one or the other. In addition, so many people that bring up this argument have never been and never will be on a racetrack in their life nor will they ever take their RX-8 to its handling limits.

 

I agree to most of your points but Mazda has always stated that this car was not an rx7 replacement. Mazda had to make this car more reliable with more passenger space and less powerful to warrent the execution of a new rotary vehicle for the masses.

I've also seen the bashings and most if not all are from ppl in the US where big power is part of their heritage. Although I do agree that Mazda should have stated the correct hp #'s, they probably met some speed bumps along the way. Where emissions/smog laws made Mazda flash the car so they can even sell it in the US. This resulted in lower power imo.

It's hard for someone that drives an awd car to appreciate the smoothness of a rotary engine. Your car is all grunt. It's a total different driving style when maximizing the performance of a rotary. It's a momentum car. If you brake too much in a corner, then times will be affected more then marginally.

BTW The MS6 is a good sign of things to come for the 8.

 

The RX-8's selling point is that it combines the best attributes of both a sports sedan AND sports car into one car. The problem is, neither audience is convinced. Sports car shoppers think it's underpowered and won't handle like a "true sports car." Sedan shoppers think it's too impractical and stiff-riding.

Heck, *I* wasn't convinced. It's exactly what I wanted, yet I never even considered it when shopping for a car. It just seemed too odd, too out-there for me to consider. Rotary? Suicide doors? What the...?

By happy accident, I ended up test driving one, and decided to buy it 30 seconds down the road.

If Mazda wants to sell more, they gotta stop the silly zoom-zoom stuff people are sick of hearing about. Do some more ads which stress the practicality of the car, along with the connection to the road. Dump the cute door-hugging ads, and show something real and practical... like the kids hopping into the back seats or mom tossing the groceries into the trunk. Then show it ripping up an autox or something, or a mountain road (less the kids and groceries). More useful scenes and info, less cuteness.

 

Ike that makes more sense as far as the hp bashing since it has been restated like it has.

HeelnToe that is a great idea for the advertising. Instead of the car hugging, show it cruising down a track around a few decent corners.

 

I think they'd actually have to start advertising for the RX8 first.....

 

They advertised it quite a bit, that's why we're talking about their horrible cutesy ads. Lots of magazine ads and the commercial was running pretty regularly the first year after release. I had a Mazda dealer tell me that Mazda's intention with the RX-8 was to capture a lot of female buyers. After I saw the ads I didn't doubt it... The best Rx-8 commercial isn't even for a commercial but for tires, but I think Mazda has always had awful ads. I wanted to strangle that zoom zoom kid and hate that song.

 

The Rx-8 just got it's ratings dropped in Solo 1 up here in Canada because it never crossed the finish line first or anywhere close to it.

 

I think the 8 is a success and a failure at the same time. A success because it’s a marvel of modern engineering, that combines drivability and handling like never before. A failure, because Mazda underestimated the importance of power in the minds of the PURCHASING American Public!

True driving enthusiasts appreciate what Mazda has done, and countless magazine reviews applauding the car prove that. The 8 revived the rotary; it handles like a go cart, and for the most part is a good every day driver. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the 8 is a dream going around a road course, and it will easily hang with many of the more powerful sports cars. The problem is most Americans looking to buy a car are not enthusiast.

Mr. John Q Public doesn’t run his car around a road course while going to the grocery store; no slalom on the way to work for Jane Doe. Even if there was, most people haven’t the faintest idea how to use the 8 to its limits. For these people, the closest they get to sporty driving is a red light jaunt with a local teen. These situations aren’t the 8’s strong suit, and this is why the car doesn’t sell well.

The only questions remaining are:

Does Mazda care (Probably)?

Do you care (Depends, are you an enthusiasts)?

 

No it isn't hard for me to appreciate it, I've driven all kinds of cars and can see the good and bad in all of them. The rotary is neat, and it's smooth, but it has drawbacks and personally the drawbacks aren't worth the benefits for me. In fact it's pretty tough to find a lot of benefits. Yes it revs high, but if you ask me powerband is more important than what a car redlines at. It's light, but there are plenty of light higher powered engines out there now. It's possible that it sits lower in a car due to it's shape and size, but I don't really think there is a whole lot of difference in the COG of a flat or inline engine and the rotary.

 

Waits for the flames

 

That's your opinion. I'm just saying that you're use to lots of torque and its just a different experience driving an 8. The 8 is not a dedicated sports car. It's just a fun everyday car. My brother use to own a 911 turbo and it is unbelievable. Funny thing is that we got beat by a turbo golf vr6 on the highway. It was embarrasing to say the least. It just goes to show that if someone wants more power then you can always find ways to acheive it. I for one find the 8 fast enough for daily driving and it is a great car for what it is. I do have a good feeling that Mazda will find away to bump power. It's just a matter of time now. I don't think the ms6 was ment to be Mazdas top sports car is what I'm getting at.

 

Do you even own an RX8 or any Mazda Product for that matter?

 

I think Ike is a closet RX-8 lover.
He hides it from his WRX buddies because he is afraid he will be laughed at or misunderstood.

 

is it necesary to make this thread into a hp thread?

the question was:
Do you guys think the RX-8 was a comercial succes for mazda?

my opinion is yes, it not only revived the rotary in the us but gave them the platform for the miata, mazda cant be so dreamers as to belived the RX-8 was going to sell a million cars not afther the fd, firts they must proof the rotary is a relyable engine and then the sales may be there but not in the firts model, what mazda needs now is to get some new energy behint the RX-8 maybe thru racing programs? and please get a cat that can take the heat.

 

now a second rotary model, price 18,000 to 22,000 and 2,600lbs and a rework rotary with 180 to 190 rwhp, that will sell in large #

 

If the question was "do you think the RX-8 was a success for Mazda", how can we not talk about horsepower? The horsepower debacle was a huge set back for the 8, and it really soured a lot of people on the car. Furthermore, every hater of the 8 complains about the HP numbers. I think it's fair to say that Horsepower is the only real performance related problem the 8 has, and if the car had more ponies it would probably be a better seller than the Z.

If we didn't talk about Horsepower, the thread would be nothing but "YES" or "NO." Whether we want to admit it or not, threads without controversy are boring!

 

I agree with you that if the car had 20 more hp its sales be better.

but do you think in $ the car was a succes for mazda?

 

No, threads about horsepower are boring. Quite possibly the second most boring on here, edged out only by threads about gas mileage.

I completely think they could've sold a lot more with better advertising. Those "hugging" commercials were so awful that I totally didn't remember I'd seen them until I was reminded of them. They told you NOTHING about the car or why you would want one. I've seen at least one other RX-8 commercial, and that too told very little about the car or why you'd want one. And the "zoom-zoom" stuff is crap, because they totally watered down the very concept by applying it to every car they make.

Yes, lots of serious sports car people were always going to be turned away by the HP, but I still think lots of less serious sports car people (like me), people who'd enjoy driving a sports car but assumed that it had to be two seats and tiny trunk and therefore too impractical for them, people like that would've bought more if they'd known about it. I keep going back to the endless stream of people who see our cars and are really impressed *and have no clue what it is*. That's just failed marketing.

 

I agree that the whole HP debate is old, and beaten to death, but in any case it’s a reality. Until the 8 gets a HP upgrade this forum will be haunted by threads about the lack there of, or ways to add it. When trolls want to kill the 8 they will start threads about it, and when 8 owners are upset with their cars it will be central to the argument.

I disagree that serious sports car people are the ones that hate the 8, and the less serious would love it (assuming they know about it). I think true fans of sports cars are the ones that will love it, and those less into cars will hate it. Less educated sports car fans don't appreciate the handling, and focus on the ponies. True fans want the entire package, perhaps willing to sacrifice some horizontal acceleration for vertical.

The problem is how many of these “True Fans” are there? Can Mazda make a profit just selling to them? I doubt it, but I don’t have all the facts.