RX-8 vs. EVO
#101
I said it before...I have owned an Evo and currently own an 8! While they are different animals in a lot of ways they are both great driving experiences! The Evo is a beast of a car when it comes to performance! The RX-8 cannot outdo the Evo in any area of performance that I can think of! The RX-8 is a more comfortable ride and very smooth about it's business in every way...still great! There is a lot of false info passed in threads like this and while some get all pissy at Ike for saying what he does...he is absolutely right in a lot of these debates!
#103
Originally Posted by bruce_van
I'm actually think there are too many cars to choose from when deciding on a new car. That's a wonderful thing.
Wow...that sounded really cheesy.
#105
Originally Posted by 9291150
You're mostly alone in that "scary" evaluation of the 8's handling. I only read one review out of dozens that said anything close to that. The 8 IS too soft for a trackday only car, but so are most stock cars, your 350 included.
Hornet- how do you rate the brakes on the EVO compared to the 8?
#106
Originally Posted by Ike
That one in particular is the top of the line UK model but it's not as different as you'd think from a standard MR Evo. All the suspension is the same they just boosted power levels to 400hp, which is about the same as a standard Evo with some boltons. They did it a little differently though, maybe for emissions, maybe to justify the extra cost. The main difference is a little bit larger turbo and a Motec.
#107
Originally Posted by dbb
.... and the turbo lag which made the car undriveable on roads, which they showed on the same top gear episode.
#108
Originally Posted by dynamho
Certainly the MP3 Protege was a fun-to-drive car. I think it's one of the smartest moves Mazda made to test the waters. However, I don't recall that it was designed from a clean sheet of paper like the RX-8. Tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't the MP3 a Protege (great little car BTW) with suspension mods and a trivial power tweak, whose success led to the underrated but fantastic MS Protege?
I don't follow why the MP3 example illustrates the validity of the "sports car". If the criterion is just fun-to-drive, then I'm afraid say that the argument falls way short. Perhaps, you and I are not in sync....
I don't follow why the MP3 example illustrates the validity of the "sports car". If the criterion is just fun-to-drive, then I'm afraid say that the argument falls way short. Perhaps, you and I are not in sync....
#109
Originally Posted by gh0st
this is just one of about 10 RETARTED comments ive read so far. this is reality, not gran turismo.
hahaha poor Ike...the ignorance and debating skills of some of these fanboys must drive you up the wall.
this thread made my brain bleed a little.
hahaha poor Ike...the ignorance and debating skills of some of these fanboys must drive you up the wall.
this thread made my brain bleed a little.
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html
Basically, 4WD does not introduce power oversteer. However, most people still prefer it simply because it provides superior cornering grip thus improve cornering speed. As I have promised earlier in the Cornering Grip section, here I'll explain how 4WD improve cornering grip :
Consider a driving wheel running in a corner. Due to the frictional force applied from the road surface, the tread in the contact patch distorts and creates slip angle. The faster the car corner, the more centrifugal force generates thus the larger the slip angle becomes. You can interpret this as the elastic distortion of the tire generates a counter force to keep the car fighting with the centrifugal force. When the car is accelerated fast to the extent that the elasticity of the tire reaches its limit, it could not distort anymore, thus more speed will lead to the tire slide, and the car lose grip. This point is what we call "Cornering Limit".
A FWD or RWD car has already a lot of tire distortion (slip angle) in the driving wheel because the tractive force is shared by only two wheels. Therefore there is not too much space left before the tires running into their cornering limits. On the contrary, 4WD cars distribute tractive force to all wheels, thus each wheel shares considerably less tractive force thus create smaller slip angle in cornering. The car can corner at higher speed before the slip angle reach the cornering limit.
Consider a driving wheel running in a corner. Due to the frictional force applied from the road surface, the tread in the contact patch distorts and creates slip angle. The faster the car corner, the more centrifugal force generates thus the larger the slip angle becomes. You can interpret this as the elastic distortion of the tire generates a counter force to keep the car fighting with the centrifugal force. When the car is accelerated fast to the extent that the elasticity of the tire reaches its limit, it could not distort anymore, thus more speed will lead to the tire slide, and the car lose grip. This point is what we call "Cornering Limit".
A FWD or RWD car has already a lot of tire distortion (slip angle) in the driving wheel because the tractive force is shared by only two wheels. Therefore there is not too much space left before the tires running into their cornering limits. On the contrary, 4WD cars distribute tractive force to all wheels, thus each wheel shares considerably less tractive force thus create smaller slip angle in cornering. The car can corner at higher speed before the slip angle reach the cornering limit.
I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that.
However ...
There is always argument that whether the neutral steer of 4WD is better than RWD's oversteer. Although neutral is more favorable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase. Remember, no driver could avoid miscalculation, no matter Mrs. Robinson or Michael Schumacher. Normally we need to feel the car's attitude and the road condition every moment before deciding how to control the car in the next moment. In this sense, RWD's controllable power oversteer is what we want.
Moreover, power oversteer of RWD ask the driver to intervene the throttle during cornering. This let him feel more involving and that he is mastering the car. In contrast, 4WD cars let the tremendous grip, the limited-slip differential and even the computer to rule the car's cornering. Therefore we always hear road testers said RWD is more fun to drive.
Moreover, power oversteer of RWD ask the driver to intervene the throttle during cornering. This let him feel more involving and that he is mastering the car. In contrast, 4WD cars let the tremendous grip, the limited-slip differential and even the computer to rule the car's cornering. Therefore we always hear road testers said RWD is more fun to drive.
#110
Originally Posted by dbb
it's going to bleed some more now ...
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html
I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that.
However ...
"...Although neutral is more favorable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase...."
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html
I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that.
However ...
"...Although neutral is more favorable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase...."
His point here is perhaps that the extra degree of control offered by RWD is most suitable for driving enthusiasts.
Thanks for the link though. It has some great reading!
Last edited by dynamho; 02-13-2007 at 04:29 PM.
#111
Originally Posted by dynamho
Certainly the MP3 Protege was a fun-to-drive car. I think it's one of the smartest moves Mazda made to test the waters. However, I don't recall that it was designed from a clean sheet of paper like the RX-8. Tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't the MP3 a Protege (great little car BTW) with suspension mods and a trivial power tweak, whose success led to the underrated but fantastic MS Protege?
I don't follow why the MP3 example illustrates the validity of the "sports car". If the criterion is just fun-to-drive, then I'm afraid say that the argument falls way short. Perhaps, you and I are not in sync....
I don't follow why the MP3 example illustrates the validity of the "sports car". If the criterion is just fun-to-drive, then I'm afraid say that the argument falls way short. Perhaps, you and I are not in sync....
#112
Originally Posted by 9291150
No, there is not that big a diff. in skidpads or transition/slalom times, which says much about the 8 considering its compliant ride.
http://www.caranddriver.com/longroad...x-8-page2.html
id say .95 vs .88 is a pretty significant margin, but if you think otherwise that its not a big diff then thats fine too.
... and ive seen .98g for the EVO... http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/mitsubishi_evo8.htm , so id say .95g is a pretty conservative number for the evo.
Last edited by playdoh43; 02-13-2007 at 04:58 PM.
#113
Originally Posted by playdoh43
well i thought you might be right because i wasnt sure what the rx8 got in skidpad, though i vividly remember it to be slightly less than .9g as ive mentioned in my previous post... so i took out my c&d about the EVO and it got a .95g stock, and just to make it fair i went to search for the skidpad number for rx8 at c&d, it was .88g
http://www.caranddriver.com/longroad...x-8-page2.html
id say .95 vs .88 is a pretty significant margin, but if you think otherwise that its not a big diff then thats fine too.
... and ive seen .98g for the EVO... http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/mitsubishi_evo8.htm , so id say .95g is a pretty conservative number for the evo.
http://www.caranddriver.com/longroad...x-8-page2.html
id say .95 vs .88 is a pretty significant margin, but if you think otherwise that its not a big diff then thats fine too.
... and ive seen .98g for the EVO... http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/mitsubishi_evo8.htm , so id say .95g is a pretty conservative number for the evo.
No idea how that "exoticcarsite" sourced its data.
#114
Originally Posted by gh0st
on stock suspension, the 8 is twitchy at high speeds when approaching the limits.
Hornet- how do you rate the brakes on the EVO compared to the 8?
Hornet- how do you rate the brakes on the EVO compared to the 8?
#115
Originally Posted by playdoh43
^^its been mentioned many times before on this board, theres a reason why RX8 is in B stock while EVOs and S2000 are in A stock in autoX. they are a class higher because they handle better in general. AutoX is all about handling while acceleration plays very little part in it. on the skid pad EVO pulls close to 1g while RX8 if i remember correctly is a tad below .9 ... but skidpad is more indicative of the grade of tire and EVO has superior Yoko Advans, not so much about handling. ---edit actually tires does directly affect handling, superior tire will add toward overall handling of a car
#116
Originally Posted by 9291150
You're picking the best of one and worst of another. Ok, let's stick with C&D, they also tested an 8 at .91 on Dunlops, and I saw two other tests of the Evo in C&D, one with .90 and another with .93 results. Hence my conclusion. I'm not even getting into transition/slalom times where the 8 also shows well.
No idea how that "exoticcarsite" sourced its data.
No idea how that "exoticcarsite" sourced its data.
I didnt pick the best of the evo number... or the worst number for rx8.
i really dont want to continue aruging this because you are picking the best rx8 data vs low evo data on the other hand. in the end they are just numbers. so whatever, youre entittled to your belief. to me its more indicative of tires anyways. I know that the EVO is a much more capable car on any track, whether it be all turns or turns with straights, so thats enough evidence for me which one handles better.
Last edited by playdoh43; 02-13-2007 at 05:57 PM.
#118
Originally Posted by Ike
That one in particular is the top of the line UK model but it's not as different as you'd think from a standard MR Evo. All the suspension is the same they just boosted power levels to 400hp, which is about the same as a standard Evo with some boltons. They did it a little differently though, maybe for emissions, maybe to justify the extra cost. The main difference is a little bit larger turbo and a Motec.
#119
Originally Posted by 9291150
You're mostly alone in that "scary" evaluation of the 8's handling. I only read one review out of dozens that said anything close to that. The 8 IS too soft for a trackday only car, but so are most stock cars, your 350 included.
I can leave the garage in the 8, come home after a 30 min drive. I can then get into the Z and drive the same stretch of road. I think that's as good of a comparison as I can think of. Being soft doesn't mean I am knocking the car, I am just stating what I feel. Why do people get so offended? Try a butt-floss, maybe that will clear it up.
#120
tmak26b is not alone, BMI have also made similar comments on multiple episodes. fanboys need not get bitter, no one said that rx8 is not a great handling car. in fact im pretty sure everyone here agrees that the RX8 is one of the best handling cars out there, Tmak26b included. Stop acting bitter everytime theres something negative is said. rx8 is not gods gift to men, nor is the evo or the 350Z, get over it.
#121
Originally Posted by tmak26b
Are you talking about the FK400 or something? That thing has a different suspension, the steering ratio is different too. The car is more hardcore than the ones you see here. It turns like a truck too.
#122
Originally Posted by MP3Guy
Ummm. That was the point I was trying to make. The MP3 Protege was a fun car, but it surely is no sports car.
#123
Originally Posted by dbb
it's going to bleed some more now ...
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html
I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that.
However ...
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html
I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that.
However ...
#124
Originally Posted by Ike
Ok, go start your RX-8 from a dead stop in 6th gear and tell me how it accelerates. All they were showing is that the car needs to be in it's powerband to perform well, no different from your RX-8.
The RX-8's powerband is TOO broad for some people, and the engine is so elastic in it's response, it's one of the best reasons to own the car. And this again points to my "car by numbers" critique. You can generate a wonderful data panel on a road test with these overdone cars. That doesn't make them enjoyable to own and actually use.
But bragging rights to a statistic is all some people need in a car.