Hello.

New guy and all that good stuff. Since this is my first post here I'll give some of that mandatory introduction crap before begining my actual post.


About me:
I'm 24, just bought my first RX-8 in September and I'm loving it. I have a bit of a lead foot, and dispite my years of driving experience with rotaries, I just never seem to learn.
My first car was my mother's hand-me-down sweet 16 present: 1989 RX-7 GX-L. Non-turbo & automatic, but still fun. I fell in love. I tried driving other cars, both sporty and economical, and I've come to the conclusion that I will never (happily) own anything that isn't powered by a rotary.
That broke in 2002 @ 102k miles. In 2005, 6 months after graduation, I bought an 1993 TT RX-7 auto as my project car. I then got in a violent accident 28 days later in my Avalon and I lived in fear of tiny sports cars, and traded in my FD for a Galant after owning it for less than 2 months.
3 months ago I learned that unless I was taking right turns @ 45mph, I just wasn't happy. I test drove all sorts of sporty cars - Z4, S2000, 3000GT VR-4, MR2, Solstice, Sky, STI, 350Z, Miata...but nothing was as fun to drive as the RX-8. While it was INFINATELY slower than most of the cars I drove, and the Z4 & S2000 seemed to handle better, that rotary just called out to me, and before I knew it the Galant was traded in for a 6-speed Grand Touring RX-8.

I'm an all-or-none kind of guy, so I most likely wont be modding my car until 2008 or something. I've had my eye on a supercharger, but until my dentist & optomitrist stop bleeding my wallet dry every month (Insurance sucks, I'm boarderline legally blind, and my teeth all conveniently decayed at the same time), I'm going to be stock for probably the entire life of the original engine.


[/Introduction]







[Actual Post]
OK, so, my question is about the traction control system on the RX-8. Of the many MANY cars I've driven over the past 8 years, the RX8's have the most PHENOMENAL dynamic stability control system I have EVER felt in my life. Even the driver assists in the Gran Turismo games for Playstation aren't this good.
On December 2nd Car & Driver magazine had a neat little "editor for a day" event for subscribers in Houston (I saw several RX-8 owners there...).
The Lexus RX300 had the most intrusive DSC ever. buzzers went off non-stop, the trottle was constantly being cut, the power steering would randomly cut out, the brakes were delayed in response - a HUGE let-down in my eyes since my Avalon (which was a '96), hardly ever clicked on around turns.
Then I drove a Caddy SUV. The DSC was almost non-existant. I really felt like I was driving solo unless I snapped the wheel as hard as I could and floored it, at which point the car vibrated violently as it slowed down. One guy even got the car to sway to violently that it dialed ON-star because the collision sensors had been tripped!
Now, before you flame me for comparing SUVs' DSC systems to a sports car DSC system, let me rationalize my comparison. FACT: SUVs are big, heavy, hard to control, dangerous automobiles for the driver and all the cars around it. The average driver is NOT going to be able an out-of-control SUV with the same rate of success as they could an Sedan or Sports car. The way I see it, SUV DSC systems should be among the best of the best. The responsiblilty of controling 3½ tons of top-heavy reinforced steel should not be entrusted to the average driver in extreme conditions. A company like Caddilac, which is essentially General Motors' flagship company, should not equip one of their biggest and most dangerous vehicles with such a flimsy, almost non-existant, driver assist system.
But what is the alternative? Was the only other option on the opposite end of the spectrum (which is where the Lexus stood)? Is technology *STILL* so un-evolved that our options for Stability Control Systems are essentally "all" or "none"?

Then I got to drive a BMW & Caddy Sedan. The BMW was none other than Car & Driver's very own #1 pick for 2006's car of the year - the 325i. "Surely," I thought, "if any car is going to impress me with their DSC, it's going to be this one." How wrong I was.
Flooring it resulted in a .001 second tirespin, which then resulted in the gas being COMPLETELY cut for the next second and a half.
Sudden application of the brakes made the car sway enough to make the gas completely cut out again.
Each turn had horrible understeer, which was then corrected via the traction control cutting off the gas.
In short, it was the Lexus all over again. This only confirmed my "all or none" hypothosis. The final car that day was another Caddy (sorry for not giving any names - I know nothing of their vehicle lineup and don't want to mislead anyone by incorrectly guessing at the names.), and it drove just the SUV. You could give it hell in the straights, but if you snapped the car too hard from turn to turn, the car would treat it as if you got in an accident and kill the throttle completely for nearly 2 or 3 seconds.

So, here we have Lexus, Caddilac, and BMW - 3 of the biggest names in luxury and safety, with the most unpredicatble and unreliable driver assist controls I've ever experienced on their best selling '06 models. I was severely disappointed in all of these companies by the end of the test drives.

Then I get into my MAZDA... my non-luxury, non-safe, pseudo-4-door sports car... which I can SWEAR has a more advanced DSC system on it, but I don't want to tear my tires up just to prove an irrelivent point to myself. It rains that night, and I still can't stop thinking about what a let-down those luxury cars were, so I decide to find a nice open parking lot and take advantage of the NON-tred-destroying wet ground.
Sure as the world turns, Mazda's "zoom-zoom" beat the luxury companies like red-headded step children. 35mph, crank the wheel, downshift, drop the clutch at 8k, and the backend slips out 30 degrees, the car vibrates, the pedals ignore you for the short instant the car takes to regrip, and gives you full control of the trottle again. I really really tried to lose control, but I could not, for the life of me, force myself into an uncontrollable spin whilst in that parking lot. But at the same time, I could still drive that car like I stole it. The rear end would get out from behind you will little effort in 2nd & 3rd gear, but in less than a second, DSC would kick in, get all 4 tires back in grip, and put you right back in control.


So I start to read some consumer reviews on Edmunds & Kelley Blue Book to see what other's have to say about the RX-8's DSC. To my shock, of the 20 or so reviews that I read, not a single one said anything postive about the traction control! Instead I found myself reading review after review of people saying "This car is USELESS in snow & rain, even with TC on," "I HATE driving in anything that isn't blazing hot summer weather or else the backend slides everywhere," "This car will kill you because of the horrible oversteer," etc.


So, here's my question to other RX-8 owners & enthusiasts: What's going on here?
Am I just a really crappy driver who doesn't understand the purpose of a 'good' DSC system?
Is my DSC system a fluke?
Does the RX-8 have an amazing DSC system that people are just failing to recognize?
Are most DSCs like this, and I was just unfortuneate to drive some overly-protective vehicles with Car & Driver?

 

damn, this post is so long, i gave up on it after the 2nd paragraph :p
welcome

 

First let me say that the RX 8 (from my experience) has the best TSC and DSC systems I've ever seen on any car...

Next let me point out that you are comparing (in my opinion) 2 horrible SUV's, and one comparable sedan... Ofcourse the RX8's DSC is better, for starters the RX 8 is better... Next we have 50/50 weight ratio, good brakes, and sometimes good tires... Simply a 50/50 weight ratio creates an easier situation for the RX8's DSC to gain traction compared to any SUV... Next let me point out "hardcore" that these are Caddy SUV's... Unless you smoke cigarettes everyday, are an alcoholic on a constant binge of other miscellanious drugs, then most likely you are intelligent enough to acknowledge how buying a caddy is a large waste of money... At this point you can obviously point out that I'm a big hater of expensive vehicle's that are really just stripped down dumb idea's...

The reason our DSC is better is because we have actual hard workers that go for the idea, and less for the money in their wallet...

 

Jump to the bottom, he finally gets around to asking a question.

Welcome to the forum, busy-fingers!

 

I find the DSC is too aggressive in dry conditions and too weak in wet, snow or ice. In the dry, the DSC hits with a jerk. In the wet, it reacts too slow. I accually spun the car because I was correcting before the DSC kicked in. When it did come on, it added to my correction and created a fishtail motion as we fought for control. I have 30+ yrs of driving experiance in rear wheel drive cars w/o DSC. I'm not sold.
Part of the problem with the reviews you read was the OEM tires that come on the car. They are bad when the temperatures drop below 40 degrees F. They are useless when there is snow or ice on the road surface. They are "summer performance" tires and not made for cold conditions.

 

First off, thanks for writing so much about your experience with DSC in other cars, I actually haven't driven anything else that has any kind of ABS, not to mention DSC or Traction Control so it's neat to learn how they work in some other cars.

I think what might be happening is that even though the BWM and Lexus you drove were quick and powerful cars, they were designed more with luxury in mind than performance. I try not to generalize, but for the market that those cars are sold to, the owners don't push them to the limits very often and if something unexpected were to happen while driving in traffic and not just tooling around in a parking lot, those owners want their cars to put their *safety* first. On the other hand, the RX8 is much more of a straight-up sports car, and as such it's much more performance-oriented and well balanced. So it'll trust the driver to know what he/she is doing more than the BMW, which wants to do all your thinking for you.

Then again, just my speculation. But if you were to drive some more straight-up sports cars equipped with stability control, you'd probably feel something closer to what the RX8's DSC gives you than what you felt in the SUV or Lexus.

 

terrible over steer? only when DSC is turned off! hehe

the 8's DSC system is amazing! i'll have to agree with you there. but in snow, it might be better to turn it off if you're stuck in snow ,from my experience, it wont let you over spin the tires to gain some traction.... try it sometime if you have snow. if you floor it on snow, the tires spin... very... very slow with the dsc on, turn it off and the tires spin and cut into the snow no problem.

 

Welcome.

My motto is..who needs all that hp on the track when you've got 50/50 weight distribution?

I used to be all about power, back in the day. The 8 has matured me, and taught me a lot.

-Cody

 

lol sorry - I have a bad habit of posting big. Let me give the CliffNotes version:


For the longest time I was under the impression that Luxury Vehicle companies equiped their cars with top-notch traction control systems, and that the more economical brands like Honda, Mazda, Ford, Chevy, & Mitsubishi offered little more than ABS.

I did a test drive with Car & Driver Magazine on the 2nd of December and came to find that the best sellers from Caddilac, BMW, & Lexus come equiped with some of the most unpredictable and unreliable driver assists I've ever felt.

For ***** & giggles, I pushed my RX8's Dynamic Stability Control system as hard as I could on a rainy night to see how it compared to the Luxury brands. By the end of my little experiment, Mazda made Caddies, Beamers, and Lexi look like R-Tards.

My question:
Is the RX8's DSC really *that* good, or were my findings the result of a fluke?





lol thanks


k good - so I'm not the only one.

I despise SUVs and all that they stand for, so I know little of SUVs other than the fact that I hate them all. I also hate Luxury vehicles with every ounce of my being since the only differences between a "luxury" car and a regular car is interior asthetics and the nameplate on the bumpers...oh yeah that and $15,000 dollars.
However, to be fair, the Caddy was far better than the Lexus. More power, more agility, RWD, more interior space, better visibilty, and less road noise. Since the Lexus RX300 is the top-selling Lexus, I don't think it's fair to call it (nor the car that was hands-down better than it) "awful."
To an RX8 owner, I'm pretty sure any SUV is an "awful" SUV...
...and which sedan are you dismissing? The Caddy? Blew the 3-series out of the water in every category as far as I could tell...

While I completely agree, I'm currious in what YOU think makes it better. I think it's better because I like cars that handle like video games. Turns hard, brakes hard, accelerates nicely, redlines high, sounds cool, shifts hard, easy to control in a slide, and looks pretty mean.
But just because it does it for me better than a BMW doesn't mean the Beamer isn't a better car. Not everyone is OK with the idea of buying a new motor every 100,000miles, you know...

50/50 is nice for cornering, but not so much for regaining control. I'm a programmer, and I graduated with a minor in physics, and I can tell you that while writting software to control a car with even weight distribution is easy, making a car recover from a slip or spin, even if it's 10/90 balanced, is just as doable.

Just one was.
1 Lexus SUV, 1 Caddy SUV.
The other Caddy was a CTS or something - I'm not quite sure. What 4-door Caddy is in the same class/pricerange as the BMW 325i?


lol <3 for you, Keef - you remind me of myself.
I hate luxury sedans. I don't understand what kind of poor pathetic human can't see what a rip those cars are. You can get a nice roomy Toyota with leather seats, power everything, awesome warranty, all the gadgets and gizmos the company can fit buttons for in the dash, a badass sound system, and 3 airbags per seatbelt, for somewhere around $30,000.... Or, you can get the exact same car, with a fake wood trim, brighter guage cluster, and an pretty gold 'L' on the bumpers for $55,000.

Don't even get me started on Jaguars... GRRRR!!!! My mom spent upwards of $35,000 for a Ford Taurus just because it has a leather interior and a stupid cat on the hood.... GAAAAHH!!!!

 

I can speak from experience, BMW DSC sucks! I had an M3 and you'd think there would be a *little* play but... not really. The RX-8 gives you enough not to be tempted to turn it off, and not too much to get you into trouble.

It is by far the best balanced DSC on the market today.

 

DUDE!!!! I did that SAME ride and drive/Editor for a day. Have you seen your video yet . . . they are hilarious.
Welcome to the addiction we call the 8

oh . . and as for DSC . . Get rid of it . . . If your DSC kicks in all the time, you are doing something wrong all the time. Turn it off and practice. (in a safe place) Once you learn the limits of your car (learn in a safe environment) You should only need your DSC once in a blue moon . .ie. sand or water on the road.
Personally, I will not let anything (Human or computer) touch my steering wheel, gas or brakes when I drive. . . . . . .
But that is just me. You enjoy your car however you want

 

Wow, this thread saw a lot more action that I was ready for...
...let me get up to speed on the new posts (I get interuppted at work, thus 1 post takes me over an hour..)

That's odd.... that's exactly the opposite of how I feel. Both of RX-7s have had problems with the automatic transmission for a majority of my time driving them, so reacting to sudden slips and jerks around turns is a finely honed skill of mine... perhaps I'm too used to jerks like these that I'm not feeling them...

I came very close to this just a few days ago. I meant to shift from 5th to 4th while entering a turn and went over to 2nd instead (give me a break - I've only been driving a stick for 3 months!) I was going about 40mph in the rain when this happened, so I didn't have a prayer of recovering from it on my own. I just turned into the slide until I heard that oh-so-familiar sound of the DSC kicking in, at which point started to straighten out the front tires.
The DSC had the backend back where it belonged before I could even complete a full rotation of the steering wheel. Luckily, I'm so used to intentionally triggering the DSC in the rain that I was ready for the violent snaps and shakes and managed to recover...

I don't even have 30 years of LIVING experience, and a majority of my driving experience is FWD, so it's no mystery that what you find intrusive I find life saving.

I live in Texas, so the temps rarely go this low, but on the few occasions that it's gotten in the 30s it's no secret that tires aren't really doing their best work.
However, I have lived in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey - don't these reviewers know that even Trucks and AWD sedans need to change their tires when it snows?


All we did with these cars was some 15-25mph hairpins and chicanes. While I realize the average driver has no clue how to recover from oversteer, nor how to adjust throttle while in a violent turn, let's remember something: I'm 24 years old, and just bought my first manual transmission RWD sports car a little less than 3 months ago! The FD I had for 50 days was the most powerful car I had ever driven in my life, and that car had boost leaks, tranny failure, and a cracked block. I've driven an NA FC, Avalon, & Galant - I *am* the average driver!
The only racing I've ever done all took place in a video game! The average driver knows how to steer, counter-steer, as well as when to brake, and when not to. In my opinion, these "saftey" features are putting average drivers at greater risk than they would on their own. Plus, how does the not-so-average driver react? What about the kind of people that don't know to hold down the pedal on ABS cars? What if their steering suddenly cuts our or their throttle cuts out? It'll most likely cause them to make even BIGGER mistakes (just like how people pump their ABS).
The market for Luxury vehicles is most likely sub-par drivers. These systems are more likely to kill them than save them...

Yes, the RX8 is certainly more oriented towards driver excitement...
...but much like you generalized the Luxury sedan market, let's remember who's most likely to buy an RX8: Young kids, Fast&Furious wannabes, & yuppies (probably where I fall). Not everyone who buys a sports car knows how to drive one. I don't really the difference between the danger or a bigass sluggish SUV overer a tiny little zippy sports car. Both are sold to people who probably can't handle them.

This is actually the very reason I started this thread....
Miata, 350Z, Evo, MR2, S2000, and 3000GT VR-4 had no traction control systems. About all they had was ABS. Most sports cars don't offer it because it gets in the way. I know people with STIs & Z4's who turn it off the day they buy the car and never turned it back on because it wouldn't let them drive it any harder that you could push a Civic.
The RX-8's, however, only seems to come on when I want it and/or need it too. That got me thinking "does the RX-8 have some remarkable system that I just never knew about, or is mine just some kind of fluke?..... or do I just suck at driving...?"


Either more proof that Mazda designed something awesome that people have been overlooking, or 2 crappy drivers have united lol



I used to say the same thing when I had my FC. "I'd rather feel the g's in my lungs than on my neck" was my motto... Then I got an FD :D g's on the lungs & neck is better than sex!
My 8 - if nothing else - is going to teach me what jail is like...

 

I will have to say that the DSC has saved my **** twice. Once in a heavy rain, I did not expect the amount of water in the road that was there. I had NO control going down hill into a sharp left hander. It somehow kept me from killing my car. (No, I was not going all that fast. Barely the speedlimit due to the rain.) The secound time was going into that same sharp left hander. This time I was actualy into it. A pile of fine gravel was dumped all in the road. I did not see it until it was too late to do anything. Luck had it that no traffic was coming from the other way either time as there was also a sharp right immediatly after. I learned to LOVE DSC.

 

I've never owned a car with DSC prior to the 8 I bought in Feb04. On my first set of tires I tested the DSC quite a bit. I was surprised how well it worked, I threw my car sideways (on purpose) through an intersection (making a left at 65 mph), I didn't counter steer or attempt to correct the slide on my own I simply kept my foot in the throttle and pointed the car where I wanted it to go, the DSC and TCS both started blinking and within one second the car grabbed pavement and shot off straight in the direction I had it pointed (obviously could cause an accident if we both tried driving at the same time). Neat system.

IMHO the DSC in this car was made to baby-sit people that aren't used to the FR layout. If you know what you are doing you should turn the system off during your fun times as it will try to send you off in the direction the wheels are pointed when the throttle is yours again, so, if you are in the middle of doing something this may not be asphalt that the front wheels are pointed at.

It's still a little overprotective for me to drive with when I want a spirited romp but for regular driving I leave it on and know how to work with it.

 

OK, so far that's 3 people who agree with me - Mind if I ask for a short bio from you guys? I want to see if there's a connection between those that love it and their driving styles.


lol sweet! I saw about 4 or 5 RX8's in the lot at one point, so I figured I'd meet at least ONE person on these forums that participated... guess you're it
I haven't gotten my video yet. I'm worried my spam filters might have deleted it - what date/time did you go? I was there 13:00 on the 2nd...

Well, 19 out of 20 times I'm triggering it on purpose. I've played just about every driving game since the original "Road & Track: Test Drive" for the Commodore 64, so I actually like the fact that I can just gun it around a turn, pull off a half-assed fishtail, and then let a computer bring me right back in control.
I've thought about finding a nice open lot and learning how to drive the car without all the computer assists, but I think I've spoiled myself too much already. This is my first manual tranny car, so the habits I've developed are already to the point of 2nd nature and wont be easy to change. I'm worried that if I turn off the DSC, that *one* innocent turn that I daydream around, I'm going to do something stupid, be expecting the car to save my ***, and end up totalling my new car.
Once I stop missing gears and/or shifting into the wrong ones, I'll reconsider. But until then, I don't mind a computer telling me when I'm having too much fun.

 

The DSC is great on the street. I find it is really the perfect blend of safety and stability.

Except when you try to pull into a small gap...get wheel spin and have it cut the throttle

On the track...it is great in the wet as an *** saver....but it limits your speed.
On a dry track...it is a PIA.

That said...the BMW's that I have driven have been an even bigger PIA...so I totally agree with you :

 

Perhaps you should take it easy around that turn from now on lol

#4....



lol aka - ME.

I agree 100%. While I suck at precision driving on concrete, when it comes to pulling off crazy **** on dirt roads I'm like Collin McCrea. I have a friend with a farm way out in the boonies, and I can "drift" almost the entirety of his driveway in my 8. I'm sure for those of you out there who have mastered concrete control, the DSC seems as intrusive to you as I find it on dirt.

 

OK - if this many people are in agreement that the 8's DSC kicks the competition in the jimmy, why is there **ZERO** buzz about it? How is that not a sell point?

"Better traction control system than BMW, Lexus, Caddilac, Subaru, and Jaguar"
That's like...1 guaranteed extra sale a day per dealership!

Now, as for turning it off when racing around a track, how is it not like the perfect teacher? I drive like a moron - I won't even try to hide that - and I've never felt the DSC slow me down unless I really deserved it. I realize that in a race, having your throttle cut just because your backend slid a little is a PIA, but when is your backend slipping out during a race ever a good thing? Ever try using it for a few laps to see when the car thinks you're taking a turn too fast?
I think the DSC has actually helped me push the car to it's limits. The left turn into my neighborhood is a nice, open, banked, and has good visibility. In the FC I used to take it at 30mph and think I was insane. Then I got my FD and started taking it at 37mph and 2nd guessing how much room for error I was leaving myself. Now, in my FE, I can take the turn at 50mph. If there's ever any water or gravel in the way, the DSC saves me, so I don't ever have to go into a turn thinking "if conditions aren't perfect, I'm screwed."

But, then again, I'm crazy

lol this is hysterical.
*THE* sports car company is apparently second fiddle to "zoom-zoom"




hmmm....





*imagines...*




<ChanServ>**BMW joins channel #Car_World**
<ChanServ>@Mazda slaps BMW around with a large trout.
<ChanServ>**@Mazda sets mode +b on user "BMW"**
<ChanServ>**BMW has left channel #Car_World**
<@Mazda> Suck my DSC :P








wow did I really just type that? God what a loser....

 

Obviously, everyone knows that ChanServ doesn't slap anyone around with trouts

 

Ok, I'll take a stab at this one. I think there are two factors at work here.

1) quality of DSC is probably not at the forefront of the buyers' consciousness, so it's a low-return bang-for-the-buck to be pushing that particular point, however true it might be. Me, for instance, I *love* my 8, love lots of things about it, but I would never have thought to praise it for its DSC, since I interact with it so seldomly, and because I haven't had other cars with it so I have no basis of comparison. I expect I'm not wholly alone in this.

2) Mazda has done such a rotten job of promoting *any* of the 8's virtues that it's no wonder the DSC doesn't get mention. When I started shopping for a car, I had to learn everything about the 8 through my own research; the only thing *Mazda* had ever taught me about it is that it hugs you. :-S

 

I find the DSC a bit intrusive....esp if you're making a left turn on an intersection and you want to dump the clutch a lil bit.....well it shakes the car left and right haha and cuts the throttle to prevent me from merging with traffic faster for 2 seconds.

Then coming down an S turn onramp, gunning it on the last turn......i get a bit sideways (still controllable) but the DSC kicks in and pushes the car straight......(i guess it senses i'm slipping)......the only time i actually appreciated the DSC is when i was goin 40-45mph and there was a gradual but sharp right turn.......on this backroad and i was plowin a bit hard and it kicked in to make sure i stayed on path.....or i would of went on the opposing lane of traffic.

But i agree it has more leeway than some other cars do, you can turns aggressively or sweepin turns and it doens't kick in....basically its a guardian angel, there when you really need it.....haha.

 

IMHO our 8s DSC CAN be the perfect teacher, wet or dry, depending. Depending on your driving style on track to be specific. If you are learning and trying to drive smooth... leaving the DSC in the 8 on will provide fairly generous boundries to stay winthin, and when you exceed them, its intrusion is obvious, but not dangerous. The end result is you learn to drive well within its envelope, and you can still have fun and go fast safely. Driving home is important if you're not trailering your car.

When you feel ready, turning it off allows a smooth transition outside the boundries without a radical change in driving style, just agressiveness. It allows a good stepped progression to improved speed and handling.

If you are wanting/taught to be a F&F driver, abrupt manuvers, tailout transitions, etc. or any type of drift driving you'll certainly not appreciate the DSC and will want it off at any level of track driving.

Personally I really appreciate the flexibility and secutity my 8s DSC+off button gives me to suit my level of knowledge of any particular track, weather condition, and gut feel for skill on any particular day.

 

Me too!

Nothing wrong with DSC. It works fine it won't let you loose control.

Sucky car for drifting because it was built perfect.

 

½mv² I agree the DSC is decent and has saved me in unexpected situations.

Winter with winter tires it works great, wouldn't want to drive without it.

My biggest complaint was with the tires as they had a tough time with traction till they were broke in... a year later. That would cause the traction control to come on more often.

The 8 doesn't shock the bejesus out of a person when it comes on. In my experiences I expected it when it did.

It could be part of why the 8 achieved a 5 star rating for roll over resistance.
(although not all come with DSC so maybe that wasn't a factor...).

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced it's requiring that all future passenger vehicles have standard stability control by 2012.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....tentid=4024270

SUVs should be the most beneficial to have stability control as they are most vulnerable to roll over.

 

350Z doesn't have traction control? The button I hit everytime I get in the car must be a joke then. Evo has AWD, probably the best traction control. Also learn the difference between traction and stability control.

I think you just suck at driving...Honestly, the system allows for more flexiblity, but it is still a stability control system. If you run the car with it on and off, you will see a dramatic difference in track time. Also the sticky tires, good handling characteristics and the lack of torque make the car very hard to go sideways unless you are really tossing it around.

Also rotary engines can go a long way, most of the time is idiots who blow them up