eug

iTrader: (2)

... does it really take that many years?

I've had this car for 3 years now. First manual I've owned, so the first few weeks were a write-off of course I drive smoothly enough now, but I find I still need to pay attention to certain things.

To be specific:
- starting from stop: I have no problem getting the car going with just the clutch and no gas, and with traffic around here I had all the time in world to learn the friction point. However, for regular starts I must pre-rev (~2k) and let the clutch out slowly in order to be smooth and get moving quickly. I've never got the hang of just letting the clutch grab first then adding gas, because once the clutch starts to engage there is a "dead zone" in throttle response that is either all-or-none for me: I either don't add enough gas to keep the rpms up, or I'll over-rev, with no in-between point and all while trying to getting off the clutch smoothly without stalling. There are days I would spend practising not pre-revving, but those are the days where I end up arriving at work grumpy

- upshifting: I'm OK at minimizing tossing my wife's head forward by disengaging the clutch slightly before letting off the gas, but there is ALWAYS a minute amount of deceleration I usually can't avoid. It's hard to explain, but when I do it right, the engine spins down in a certain way that I can actually hear and feel, such that re-engaging the clutch is almost guaranteed to be smooth for the next gear, almost without even trying. But most of the time my revs either drop slightly too much or not enough before re-engaging, or I add the gas a little too late or too early, never perfect. Upshifting to 2nd is the issue, usually 3rd or higher I have no problem unless I'm having a crappy day

- downshifting: dropping to 2nd when spiriting around town is the issue; I think I can count the number of times that I blip the throttle just perfect for 2nd gear on one hand, ok maybe two. Again, usually I'll either over-rev or under-rev slightly; letting the clutch hit the friction point at the exactly the right rpm is elusive, and there's usually a bit of forward lurch or engine braking for me. Knocking back a few cogs on highway gears for passing or when approaching off-ramps are fine though, and double-clutching helps too.

Don't get me wrong, I think I'm competent enough now, and I don't make my passengers sick. This holy grail that I read about, where people drive stick like a slushbox without even the slightest loss of forward momentum nor having any forward lurch, has always been my goal. It's why I bought the manual in the first place, it's a life skill I want to master. But three years? Am I a lost cause? Did I develop some bad habits with my first manual? Anything other tips I can try? Sign up for a beginners' autocross course perhaps?

I absolutely love this car, which is why I get disappointed when I don't get the perfect shift. It's worse when I'm trying to pay attention to deliberately get it right; I find that if I turn the music on and just drive, it doesn't bother me as much. Sorry for the essay!

Razz1

Use the force Padewan... use the force...........

Feel the car, don't look at RPM.

rxwarrior

iTrader: (1)

Wow, I've been thinking about starting the exact same thread for about a week (you worded and described my problems to a T). Taking off and shifting from first to second are my only complaints. I've only had this car for 1.5 weeks though. I've had 2 other manual cars and I was always able to shift them like an auto.

lokaldisruption

ya my advice is never to look at rpms=)
because thats the reason we get the ringing noise wen excited driving
when you look at rpms while driving your getting used to something that wont help you to become a better shifter,
you really must drive the car by feel, not by looking at rpms, maybe try shifting at higher rpms, you might be shifting too early but ya never no-=)

1.3L

I noticed the same problem when my wife is in the car. I came up with a solution that makes her ride a little nicer. While accelerating in each gear I start lifting the throttle slowly just before the upshift. This technique slowly reduces acceleration and seems to prevent the sudden lurch at each shift point. It takes a little bit of effort on the drivers part, but makes the ride better for the passenger.

-1.3L

Alexb

iTrader: (1)

I do the same thing...

I also lift off the throttle completely, and right as I am almost off the throttle, I put the clutch down. so the throttle is almost off and then the clutch goes in, so just as the throttle is to none, the clutch disengages.

The biggest issue I or anyone else has is typically the coming out of a change. moving the clutch to quickly, or dropping it altogether while you aren't rev matched. Try driving barefoot or with a shoe with a very thin sole. Gives your feet a much better feel for the pedals. Just two days ago I stalled it which I haven't done since I got it about a year ago because I was wearing running shoes with a fat sole. they also make my shifts very jerky if I'm not really concentrating, so I prefer to drive with shoes that have a very thin sole, or barefoot if i'm wearing a sandal or something

eug

iTrader: (2)

I stopped staring at the tach a long time ago; I try my best to do it by ear and feel now, regardless of whether I'm mosying along or redlining.

As for the shoe thing, ya I have to adjust my technique every single morning when I wear a different shoe to work. Kinda annoying at first but what can you do.

StormyWankel

Thats why I keep my Pumas in the car...ever tried driving the car with dress shoes on? Talk about jerky shifting...

jones75254

iTrader: (2)

Like everyone is saying, using your ears and "feeling" where the car is in the rev range is better than watching rpms. Lets be real, ur not gonna be perfect all the time. I cant count how many times i have misjudged an upshift or downshift, so what. Also helps to have aftermarket exhaust, i can tell within a couple hundred rpms where i am at in the rev range based off the exhaust note (i have SP2 w/ RP supercat so is pretty damn loud). When i switch over to my fiances Accord, i over rev all the freakin time cuz its so damn quiet and u cant "feel" where its at in the rev range, lol.

BigMikeATL

I have the same issue, especially from 1st to 2nd. Very frustrating. My passengers don't appreciate the whiplash.

Fubared

Since my first car was so incredibly cheap (97 Nissan Sentra), there was no tach and no sound insulation, so I learned to drive stick by the feel and sound of the engine. Try driving without looking at the tach and with the radio off in an area (parking lot, quiet street, etc... Since you're in Ottawa, hit up Scotiabank Place/Corel Center, big parking lots, not a lot of people) where you don't have to put as much attention to whats going on around you and focus on the car.

Gradually it will just become second nature and you will hit those perfect shifts.

DarkLord7854

I kick my passengers out if they bitch.

8sumthin

Maybe it's a rotary thing. When I took my RX8 for a test drive the salesman was shocked that I didn't jerk his head around let other testers. This is my 3rd RX and my 5th manual none of which were torque monsters. When I drive my brothers Corvette like I drive my car theres tire marks on the street and on his underwear. Driving with thick sole shoes does make more challenging, but if you do it long enough you adjust.

ken-x8

Does the throttle jump unevenly in response to moving the pedal? Throttle is fly by wire - maybe there's something wrong with it. Have you had anyone familiar with RX-8s try it to see if it feels right?

Ken

CyberPitz

I've driven MANY rotary's *looks at sig*, and even I have some random issues with shitting into first and/or second. Can't quite put my finger on it, but I just go along. I blame my foot slipping if someone is in the car :P

ivory8

^-----haha shitting in first and second

i wear vans, super thin soles that look nice

Marklar

Yes it does take that long to master the sort of shifting you're talking about.

Driving a stick for 3 years may seem like a long time, but it's reasonable to expect it to take longer than that to really master it. Especially with the 8, it has a great tranny but it demands precise shifting, and it isn't very tolerant of mistakes.

For upshifting, the key is speed, you need to engage before the revs drop. Giving it a little throttle before you engage can help if you can't get it fast enough. I can do it in a fraction of a second and you can only hear the shift not feel it, but I've been driving a stick since about 1987 (aside from the time I owned one auto). It just takes time, don't try to shift faster than you are comfortable with. A short shifter would probably help with this.

For downshift rev matching, blip it hard if you are having trouble. It's better to rev too high than not high enough. Going down to second requires a much harder blip than other gears, so don't be afraid to mash that throttle. And again, speed is the key, you need to engage the lower gear quickly after blipping the throttle to keep the revs from dropping.

Starting from a stop, well, it's hard to give advice about that because it's all done by feel. You'll get better and better as time goes on, don't worry about it.

The key is experience and smooth precise movements, don't get in a rush and jerk the transmission around. Do it slowly and speed up gradually as the movements become second nature. You would have to be quite talented to be able to do this kind of shifting after driving a stick for 3 years.

And don't beat yourself up over mistakes, I screw it up often enough and I've been doing it for a very long time.

Some additional advice: keep both hands on the wheel, except when shifting. Don't rest your hand on the stick. When you shift, you should cup your hand and use the heel of your palm to move the stick up and the part where the fingers meet the palm to move the stick down.

Think of the stick as a ball joint and your cupped hand as the socket. Don't grab the stick and hold it, just guide it with your cupped hand. And you need to use precise movements with a good feel for where the gates are. With time, you'll be able to move your hand off of the wheel, shift in the blink of an eye, and have your hand back on the wheel all in under a second. Just takes time and practice.

Marklar

First to second can be a bitch near redline, I usually shift earlier to avoid that. I'm not sure why it's like that, but I've heard enough other 8 drivers complain about it to know it isn't just me. The only other rotary I've owned was an '80 RX-7 and it didn't have any trouble from first to second, but then it was a four speed with very different gearing.

With practice you can shift a manual much faster than an ordinary auto tranny, I've beaten faster cars due to this.

White_Shadows

If you want to try the most PERFECT downshifts. Stay at a constant rate of speed, don't move your right foot anywhere, press the clutch in and shift. Same thing as rev-matching just not as stupid. For upshifts the more gears you skip the less jerk your passenger gets. 1st to 6th skip all that nonsense inbetween. Also seems to be uber smooth the more gears you skip.

The Reverend

iTrader: (1)

How do you downshift without blipping the throttle?

Oh I get it

Marklar

^ I hope you're joking. [EDIT: White Shadows, not The Reverend]

Skipping gears can be fine but it depends on how fast you are going. You can't go fast enough in first to justify shifting straight to sixth. It doesn't matter what gear you are coming from, what matters is the speed you are going for the gear you shift to.

Holding the throttle down during a downshift can help match revs, but it's usually not the way to go. That's a single-clutch rev match and it only makes sense when doing heel-and-toe. Double-clutch and blip in neutral, that's the proper way and your car will thank you.

Also, what exactly is stupid about rev matching? Please explain.

White_Shadows

What is happening when you "blip" or "double clutch"? You are increasing the RPM's to match your current speed. As the higher gear requires much less rotations to maintain your speed compared to a lower gear. If you leave your foot on the gas pedal (fly by wire, does not work well with cable throttle mind you) when you depress the clutch you release the stress on the motor and the RPM's go up. Because your foot is only at roughly 30 percent at a cruising speed for any gear the increase in RPMS is PERFECT to go down into the next gear. Take in mind when doing this though. If you are accelerating you are just going to peg the revlimiter and look like a dummy. Also take care as this means you will be going the exact same speed as you were in the previous gear just higher rpms. I usually use this as I aprouch off ramps or to downshift in secreat before mashing the gas in a new gear.
For any that thing this destroys the clutch or blah blah blah it is the EXACT same action that the new 370z does for it's revmatch tranny.

Marklar

That's because the 370z has a computer that can get the revs absolutely perfect. It is far easier to get it right by double-clutching, and if you're good at it it doesn't take any longer to do.

To single-clutch rev match perfectly you can't just keep your throttle in the same position, you have to move it to the exact right position and hold it there for the gear you are going into.

Can you do that? It's not the way you describe, the way you describe is indeed bad for the car, since you are just holding the throttle wherever it happened to already be. I wouldn't say it's terrible for the car though, go ahead if you want to, and maybe you are really so good that you can do it perfectly. But it seems a lazy way to avoid double-clutching to me.

White_Shadows

You are saying Double Clutch is the way to go.
I can say that double clutching does in fact cause more wear as you are engagine and dissengaging the clutch more often. Now how does allowing the gas pedal to revmatch not the way? I always like "the car will love you." Why will the car love you? Your way you are having all the gears move fast, then some gears stop while others are moving fast, then having them all speed up again to match.

As for the you can't go from 1st to 6th I beg to differ....Try it.

Marklar

Engaging/disengaging the clutch isn't what wears them out so much as slipping the plates, which is what you're likely doing. Double-clutching was invented for cars that didn't have synchros, so I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

Um, sure, you can shift into sixth at 45 MPH if you want to, I never said you couldn't, I said it didn't make sense. Why would you want to? If you have to do that to avoid jerkiness, then your shifting needs work.