Should I bother going turbo?
12-22-2008, 01:48 AM
#126
when i talked to mark about his header (and he had sold it to someone else at this point, so he didnt have anything to gain monetarily) he seemed to indicate one of the reasons why he had a fat torque curve was his header. although he did add (since he put the exhaust all in at once) that he didnt know for sure if it was header or just the rest of the exhaust, but he said at the very least its a lot lighter than stock.
im pretty sure MM didnt trash the mazsport coils because he's a nice guy and didnt want to ruin the fact that you spend $500+ on them. lol. maybe you can sell them. maybe you can use that money to buy the bhr coils that MM designed.
im pretty sure MM didnt trash the mazsport coils because he's a nice guy and didnt want to ruin the fact that you spend $500+ on them. lol. maybe you can sell them. maybe you can use that money to buy the bhr coils that MM designed.
12-22-2008, 07:51 AM
#127
The problem is the coils are like playing musical chairs. With each round played, someone is left holding the ball. They cost $599 and quite a few were sold. As people have issues or want to upgrade to BHR's, we end up with waves of noobs trying to figure out if they should buy them or not since it sounds like a good deal to buy them for half off.
The noobs don't remember many were sold during the preorder for $499. So it's not quite half off, and the discounted price puts it within range of the BHR coils. More cost = better, right?
I made this post, you guys can just link to it next time a noob asks:
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=94
I just feel sorry for anyone holding the ball. When I sold my coils, I made sure the buyer knew my issues. But he was enthralled with everything Mazsport. So I said, "It's your life, have fun with it"
The noobs don't remember many were sold during the preorder for $499. So it's not quite half off, and the discounted price puts it within range of the BHR coils. More cost = better, right?
I made this post, you guys can just link to it next time a noob asks:
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=94
I just feel sorry for anyone holding the ball. When I sold my coils, I made sure the buyer knew my issues. But he was enthralled with everything Mazsport. So I said, "It's your life, have fun with it"
12-22-2008, 12:21 PM
#128
Just to throw my 02 into the hat on this - some info I've picked up while following this .
*There was lots of hype on the introduction of thse coils -they were anounced as the answer to all our ignition woes.
*That hype continued as people fitted the coils and reported how awesome they were(kinda remnds me of what happens anytime a new product comes out for the 8)
*Most people had no issues with the coils and still run them today with several being used in FI applications (one that i know of pushing 350hp)
* The microtech igniter will fry if not properly earthed , apparently several people did not install properly and did fry it .
*The initial dwell settings used on the interceptor x were not suitable (2ms should have been 3.5ms - according to what i've read here)
*When the x with wrong dwell was used alongside the ignition soln. there was potential for catastrphic failure in FI'd engines - just ask mysql .
*When used with the stock factory dwell the coils seem to be ok both for NA and FI
That last point i'm not 100% sure on which is why I relented and went back to stock coils for my turbo setup after an engine failure (which I don't believe was the fault of the coils)
I still think there is more to this and that the coils when properly installed and set at a suitable dwell will perform as intended.
*There was lots of hype on the introduction of thse coils -they were anounced as the answer to all our ignition woes.
*That hype continued as people fitted the coils and reported how awesome they were(kinda remnds me of what happens anytime a new product comes out for the 8)
*Most people had no issues with the coils and still run them today with several being used in FI applications (one that i know of pushing 350hp)
* The microtech igniter will fry if not properly earthed , apparently several people did not install properly and did fry it .
*The initial dwell settings used on the interceptor x were not suitable (2ms should have been 3.5ms - according to what i've read here)
*When the x with wrong dwell was used alongside the ignition soln. there was potential for catastrphic failure in FI'd engines - just ask mysql .
*When used with the stock factory dwell the coils seem to be ok both for NA and FI
That last point i'm not 100% sure on which is why I relented and went back to stock coils for my turbo setup after an engine failure (which I don't believe was the fault of the coils)
I still think there is more to this and that the coils when properly installed and set at a suitable dwell will perform as intended.
Last edited by Brettus; 12-22-2008 at 12:27 PM.
12-27-2008, 08:54 AM
#131
Has anyone noticed since the turbo guys are out of the Pettit threads, the Pettit owners have absolutely nothing to say in the SC thread?
Now that they can't claim the world is against them, they're all over the turbo threads.
The sad thing is the only thing they can say is "Look at my sig! Turbos cause ouchies! I'm not saying it, someone else said it, and hey, look, I put what they said into a JPG and then put it in my sig. It's there to *inform*, because I like to inform people of things as long as it is negative towards turbos. You know, cause turbos cause ouchies and SC's have soft boost and also SC's are great for contraceptive use, saving me thousands per week in condoms."
It's apparent all of this is a smoke screen. It's apparent the SC makes less power and torque of any kit available for the RX-8*. This is the only way they can stand up proud, by bashing everyone else in something that doesn't relate to what a FI kit is supposed to provide, power. They simply can't compete directly. So we have a bunch of garbage being spewed by them. 330 whp with meth? Welcome to 2 years ago. You're anything but cutting edge, you're late to the game while everyone else has already moved on to bigger and better things. As Paul already said, you're edging closer to the max efficiency of your compressor, so you're looking a lot like GReddy turbo folks running 12 psi. No wonder you're all spraying.
Whatever happened to the "Leave us alone, we want to just sing kumbaya and hold hands in peace"?
I even got a PM from marsredr100 this morning. He wanted to brag how he had his SC installed for 11,000 miles. Big woop. I had a turbo installed for twice that time. Making more whp and torque than his SC with the bigger pulley. It is my DD. No issues from the turbo. I even have a full engine rebuild to back it up that my exhaust ports, seals, housings, etc. were in wonderful condition. Not even a slight hint of issues or bearing wear.
If the Pettit guys want to brag about something, start by showing us you can do better. Raise the bar. We're all RX-8 owners here. You can surely be better than shitting on everyone with the lame sigs.
*I don't count the GReddy kit because it's half the cost of any other FI kit (3k vs 6k+). Apples to apples, people. PS: GReddy still makes more torque than the Pettit when running the 12 psi pulley.
Now that they can't claim the world is against them, they're all over the turbo threads.
The sad thing is the only thing they can say is "Look at my sig! Turbos cause ouchies! I'm not saying it, someone else said it, and hey, look, I put what they said into a JPG and then put it in my sig. It's there to *inform*, because I like to inform people of things as long as it is negative towards turbos. You know, cause turbos cause ouchies and SC's have soft boost and also SC's are great for contraceptive use, saving me thousands per week in condoms."
It's apparent all of this is a smoke screen. It's apparent the SC makes less power and torque of any kit available for the RX-8*. This is the only way they can stand up proud, by bashing everyone else in something that doesn't relate to what a FI kit is supposed to provide, power. They simply can't compete directly. So we have a bunch of garbage being spewed by them. 330 whp with meth? Welcome to 2 years ago. You're anything but cutting edge, you're late to the game while everyone else has already moved on to bigger and better things. As Paul already said, you're edging closer to the max efficiency of your compressor, so you're looking a lot like GReddy turbo folks running 12 psi. No wonder you're all spraying.
Whatever happened to the "Leave us alone, we want to just sing kumbaya and hold hands in peace"?
I even got a PM from marsredr100 this morning. He wanted to brag how he had his SC installed for 11,000 miles. Big woop. I had a turbo installed for twice that time. Making more whp and torque than his SC with the bigger pulley. It is my DD. No issues from the turbo. I even have a full engine rebuild to back it up that my exhaust ports, seals, housings, etc. were in wonderful condition. Not even a slight hint of issues or bearing wear.
If the Pettit guys want to brag about something, start by showing us you can do better. Raise the bar. We're all RX-8 owners here. You can surely be better than shitting on everyone with the lame sigs.
*I don't count the GReddy kit because it's half the cost of any other FI kit (3k vs 6k+). Apples to apples, people. PS: GReddy still makes more torque than the Pettit when running the 12 psi pulley.
12-28-2008, 03:26 AM
#133
Life begins @ 30 psi
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Yeah me too, damn anybody want to buy a full setup for a GT2871R? :P That being said, all the "wars" between SC and turbo guys is stupid. There isn't one best solution for each person and I know people happy with both forms of forced induction... and people miserable with them too. Some people are going to prefer the linear curve and high pitched whine of a SC while others get off on the increased torque and sound of a turbo spooling. *shrug* It's a short life, do what makes you happy. For me, I prefer turbo's for small displacement engines and SCs for smallblock V8s with tons of low end torque already. That is a personal opinion though, not the "one right way".
12-28-2008, 07:53 PM
#136
12-31-2008, 07:23 AM
#137
Has anyone noticed since the turbo guys are out of the Pettit threads, the Pettit owners have absolutely nothing to say in the SC thread?
Now that they can't claim the world is against them, they're all over the turbo threads.
The sad thing is the only thing they can say is "Look at my sig! Turbos cause ouchies! I'm not saying it, someone else said it, and hey, look, I put what they said into a JPG and then put it in my sig. It's there to *inform*, because I like to inform people of things as long as it is negative towards turbos. You know, cause turbos cause ouchies and SC's have soft boost and also SC's are great for contraceptive use, saving me thousands per week in condoms."
It's apparent all of this is a smoke screen. It's apparent the SC makes less power and torque of any kit available for the RX-8*. This is the only way they can stand up proud, by bashing everyone else in something that doesn't relate to what a FI kit is supposed to provide, power. They simply can't compete directly. So we have a bunch of garbage being spewed by them. 330 whp with meth? Welcome to 2 years ago. You're anything but cutting edge, you're late to the game while everyone else has already moved on to bigger and better things. As Paul already said, you're edging closer to the max efficiency of your compressor, so you're looking a lot like GReddy turbo folks running 12 psi. No wonder you're all spraying.
Whatever happened to the "Leave us alone, we want to just sing kumbaya and hold hands in peace"?
I even got a PM from marsredr100 this morning. He wanted to brag how he had his SC installed for 11,000 miles. Big woop. I had a turbo installed for twice that time. Making more whp and torque than his SC with the bigger pulley. It is my DD. No issues from the turbo. I even have a full engine rebuild to back it up that my exhaust ports, seals, housings, etc. were in wonderful condition. Not even a slight hint of issues or bearing wear.
If the Pettit guys want to brag about something, start by showing us you can do better. Raise the bar. We're all RX-8 owners here. You can surely be better than shitting on everyone with the lame sigs.
*I don't count the GReddy kit because it's half the cost of any other FI kit (3k vs 6k+). Apples to apples, people. PS: GReddy still makes more torque than the Pettit when running the 12 psi pulley.
Now that they can't claim the world is against them, they're all over the turbo threads.
The sad thing is the only thing they can say is "Look at my sig! Turbos cause ouchies! I'm not saying it, someone else said it, and hey, look, I put what they said into a JPG and then put it in my sig. It's there to *inform*, because I like to inform people of things as long as it is negative towards turbos. You know, cause turbos cause ouchies and SC's have soft boost and also SC's are great for contraceptive use, saving me thousands per week in condoms."
It's apparent all of this is a smoke screen. It's apparent the SC makes less power and torque of any kit available for the RX-8*. This is the only way they can stand up proud, by bashing everyone else in something that doesn't relate to what a FI kit is supposed to provide, power. They simply can't compete directly. So we have a bunch of garbage being spewed by them. 330 whp with meth? Welcome to 2 years ago. You're anything but cutting edge, you're late to the game while everyone else has already moved on to bigger and better things. As Paul already said, you're edging closer to the max efficiency of your compressor, so you're looking a lot like GReddy turbo folks running 12 psi. No wonder you're all spraying.
Whatever happened to the "Leave us alone, we want to just sing kumbaya and hold hands in peace"?
I even got a PM from marsredr100 this morning. He wanted to brag how he had his SC installed for 11,000 miles. Big woop. I had a turbo installed for twice that time. Making more whp and torque than his SC with the bigger pulley. It is my DD. No issues from the turbo. I even have a full engine rebuild to back it up that my exhaust ports, seals, housings, etc. were in wonderful condition. Not even a slight hint of issues or bearing wear.
If the Pettit guys want to brag about something, start by showing us you can do better. Raise the bar. We're all RX-8 owners here. You can surely be better than shitting on everyone with the lame sigs.
*I don't count the GReddy kit because it's half the cost of any other FI kit (3k vs 6k+). Apples to apples, people. PS: GReddy still makes more torque than the Pettit when running the 12 psi pulley.
I have consistently posted every where within the Forum and tend to resent being accused of shitting on the turbo threads or being a "Johny come lately". If you are slanting this toward selected posters than name those posters.
You and I have our own feelings on the FI issue. I do not personally care for turbos and you do not care for s/c that is plain. Just do not lump everyone in the same basket who does not agree with you.
12-31-2008, 07:55 AM
#138
`The sad thing is the only thing they can say is "Look at my sig! Turbos cause ouchies! I'm not saying it, someone else said it, and hey, look, I put what they said into a JPG and then put it in my sig. It's there to *inform*, because I like to inform people of things as long as it is negative towards turbos.`
You and I have our own feelings on the FI issue. I do not personally care for turbos and you do not care for s/c that is plain. Just do not lump everyone in the same basket who does not agree with you.
I also have no beef with SC's in general. There is no size fits all. My rant is on the lame sigs, and the attitude that goes with it.
12-31-2008, 12:08 PM
#139
/\ I agree with you for once .
Anyone who has been around for a while and has a few clues will realise the info only really applies to race cars pushing it to the limit and at hp levels way above anything any SC'd car has operated at so far .
To flaunt the information around the site as proof that turbos are no good is plainly misleading to the newbie owner looking for an FI solution .
Anyone who has been around for a while and has a few clues will realise the info only really applies to race cars pushing it to the limit and at hp levels way above anything any SC'd car has operated at so far .
To flaunt the information around the site as proof that turbos are no good is plainly misleading to the newbie owner looking for an FI solution .
12-31-2008, 12:40 PM
#140
However ...
I hear that statement a lot in the TC/SC debate. It is often the way polite supercharger owners like to avoid the discussion altogether.
As amply demonstrated on this forum, people that are "pro-turbo" demonstrate vastly more interest in the discussion and science of FI than people that are "pro-supercharger".
In every thread I can recall, the discussion of any particular turbo system starts with the positing of flow characteristics, packaging constraints, materials selection, power goals, etc.
The supercharger discussions are almost all postmortem, if you will, looking for explanations of why/how it works after the fact (if it does properly) with not-so-reasoned comparisons to "similar" turbo systems.
In almost every discussion about the technology, the "pro-turbo" people will discuss the support systems in terms of their general application, while "pro-supercharger" people will only discuss such things in the context of their particular system of choice.
When "pro-turbo" people present any sort of hard data, graphs, charts or plots, the reaction of the "pro-supercharger" camp is almost always "you hate superchargers!", whereas when the "pro-supercharger" camp presents the same sort of data, the "pro-turbo" camp just presents even more data, or essentially dismantles the data and puts it in a "non-denominational" context.
Eventually, every single discussion on every aspect of FI that has included both groups in any capacity has ended with the "pro-turbo" camp shaking their heads ruefully in disbelief and the "pro-supercharger" camp hurling their feces like a pack of wild monkeys. Figuratively, of course.
Its not that one group just likes one system more than the other.
Its that "pro-turbo" people here assert that the choice of a system must be made via a reasoned approach to the data and "pro-supercharger" people believe the choice can only be made by "preference".
There just really isn't any reasoned discussion here.
If you mention "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell in a room of both "turbo people" and "supercharger people", the turbo folks will mostly show a certain reverence for the source material and refer to it as a sort of "basis of thought", whilst the SC folks will mostly - and disparagingly - just dismiss it as a "turbo book", completely ignoring the fact that the principles behind either system are identical.
This is very nearly a metaphor for the entire problem.
Let alone the fact that C.B. also wrote "Supercharged" in response to this sort of ignorance.
For the "pro-turbo" group, it is a science.
For the "pro-supercharger" group, it is a religion.
For the "pro-supercharger" group, it is a religion.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 12-31-2008 at 12:43 PM.
12-31-2008, 12:59 PM
#141
The Local Idiot
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The whole TC vs. SC debate always amuses me. A lot of people talk about the two systems like they're radically different ideas, when they're almost exactly the same. The means used to drive the compressor is really the only difference.
Generally speaking, on a rotary I prefer turbos because there is so much kinetic energy to be had in the exhaust that it seems like a crime to just let it go out the tail pipe unused. On a V8 (or any engine with two exhaust manifolds/headers), I would lean more towards a super charger for the sake of packaging/simplicity.
Generally speaking, on a rotary I prefer turbos because there is so much kinetic energy to be had in the exhaust that it seems like a crime to just let it go out the tail pipe unused. On a V8 (or any engine with two exhaust manifolds/headers), I would lean more towards a super charger for the sake of packaging/simplicity.
12-31-2008, 03:40 PM
#142
Rice Police
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lol pwned I like turbo's the only reason i would consider getting a supercharger is the ease of install..when you live in cali and the piggy tells you to go see a ref like almost every 6 months it might benefit you i guess 
I like turbo's the only reason i would consider getting a supercharger is the ease of install..when you live in cali and the piggy tells you to go see a ref like almost every 6 months it might benefit you i guess
12-31-2008, 03:52 PM
#143
The Professor
Whatever the case my be I think everyone enjoys a good TC vs SC discussion or synthetic vs dino discussion because it makes the forum fun and people enjoy a good debate.
Last edited by staticlag; 12-31-2008 at 03:57 PM.
12-31-2008, 04:05 PM
#144
Pro-turbo on this vehicle? Yes. Price, Modularity, Power, Tunability all come into play for me personally.
Pro-turbo period? No. Just try to spec and or build a turbo manifold for a V-8 (not remote and not twin)... that alone will convert your thinking. Nevemind the cost of a TT vs a SC.
I am so sick of seeing this argument without any kind of resolution except the whole "we agree to disagree" thing. That is fine; except people are running around trying to win converts (sounds more like hate, not indifference) - like you get cool points or something. So if people are asking your advice - then cool.... but otherwise why the hell do you care so much what the RX8 next door has under the hood?
12-31-2008, 04:08 PM
#145
I still say we should ban together and go pick on the NA people.... now THAT would be fun.
12-31-2008, 07:34 PM
#147
They've just spent a whole page merely wishing each other (and only each other) a Merry Christmas!
No mention of Hanukkah or Quanzaa, so I can only infer (by using their logic) that they are completely racist and hate Jews.
12-31-2008, 07:51 PM
#148
The Professor
But even some of that is ok for the most part. I mean if we all drove exactly the same car and thought exactly the same way then that would be kind of boring, no? What is NOT ok are personal attacks on each other. Discussion = good, bashing people = mods step in.