After checking websites, auto shows, etc., there's no doubt in my mind that the RX-8 is a sweet ride from both a performance and appearance perspective. After looking through this message board, most everyone agrees. But I've still got some doubts in the area where, according to Mazda, this car is a real breakthrough - the family functionality.

I've got a 5-month old son, so any car I buy MUST be able to accomodate. Also, most of my driving is city driving, which, when coupled with the demands and distractions of a young child, make a manual transmission a dicey proposal at best.

With this perspective in mind, I'd like to solicit your opinions and feedback on a few areas where I'm struggling to justify this car. Remember, if you can't help me, you just may sentence yet another well-meaning father to 4-6 years in a Ford Taurus! So please, help a guy out!

In no particular order:

1. Can the rear seats REALLY accomodate child safety seats? I know they're LATCH compatible, but is there enough room to pull an infant carrier in and out? Or put a toddler into a booster seat?

2. Do the front seat belts attach to the pseudo-B-pillar on the rear door (as on the Honda Element) or are they seat mounted? (as on a car that's been designed sensibly) Opening the front AND rear door to let Little Johnny jump in when I pick him up will be enough trouble.

3. Is this car worth getting with an automatic tranny? With the engine putting out only 210 HP instead of 250 HP, will performance suffer dramatically? (I know peak torque is actually higher in the ATX, but I don't know how the curves compare.)

4. Is the trunk large enough to fit a child's stroller? We've got one of those heavy-duty travel system strollers for now. Until Little Johnny's a little older I've gotta be able to lug that thing around with him.

Thaks in advance for your help. I know these questions aren't as fun to answer as those about where to get your aftermarket double-bookshelf spoilers or what your vanity licence plate is going to read. With any luck, though, you can keep me out of the 3-box, 4-door, vanilla family sedan and help me pretend I'm still cool for a few more years....

 

Review this thread which mentions experience with child seat:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...d&pagenumber=2

Regarding trunk space:
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...ht=trunk+space

Another reference to trunk (page 2):
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...G&pagenumber=2

good luck with your choice...

 

I know I don't need to tell you this, but honestly you shouldn't be fussing about in the back while driving any car - whether it is a manual OR auto tranny. In any case, I noticed that Mazda has the rear seat hip-room on their specs page. I intend to measure my boys' booster seats tonight for comparison, but I'm not anticipating any problems. I'll measure the seat area in my Nissan, too, because that is where their seats are now.

 

I have a 4 month old daughter and we're doing fine. It's not as easy as a big sedan but I don't want a big sedan. Hardest part is if you're in a tight parking space so can't get in the doors very well. I just park away from everyone else!

They attach at the back of the door opening space so he'll have to jump in and out of the passenger side where the seat pops forward easier. As long as he can do the door rear himself (opening from outside once you open the front and pulling shut before you close the front) you should be ok. Once he's back there he can't get out as you have to open the fronts first.

It's a sports car. Sports cars shouldn't have autos, but that's a personal opinion and it's been done to death. I live in one of the most congested cities in the world so don't tell me it's because of the traffic.

Not sure how big heavy duty is!? We have a small one that fits and anything I purchase from here on in will be tested to fit the car first. You got to get your priorities straight!

 

I have a two-year old daughter and currently have one of those car seats with the padded arm that hinges down in front of her to latch between her legs. Do any of you know whether or not there will be enough head room for it to swing open over the top of the baby seat to get her in and out of it?

When they talk about head room in a car, is that the measurement from the "butt" part of the seat to the headliner? If so, I could measure it in my Millenia and compare the measurements with the RX-8 measurement.

Another question.....does anybody know whether the Mazda car seat/booster seat comes in different colors? The only one I have seen a picture of was a royal blue color and it was in a black/red leather interior 8. YUCK! Looked horrible. Stood out like a neon sign. Anybody know of a link to where these can be looked at or purchased?

 

i'll be honest with my opinions and i very well may get flamed for it, but here goes...i think that if you have kids, you really shouldn't drive them around in the RX-8....i believe that the RX will be YOUR car and if you need to drive the family around, drive them in the sedan, or the SUV, or the van...to buy a sports car and have to consider lugging the family around is a waste of thought...you buy a sports car for speed, appearance, and overall coolness factor...then, if you have a family, buy another vehicle that's designed for that family like a Honda Accord...the RX may very well fit 4 people, but was it truly designed for it or did Mazda just want to make the RX appeal to a wider demographic? i think the latter...

IMO, if you want a family car, the Accord, the Maxima, or the Altima would suffice...but if you want a toy for yourself and perhaps 1 other person, then get the RX...don't count on those backseats for driving around your precious loved ones

 

BRx8 I couldn't agree more. I got my *** flamed out for saying the exact same thing as you. But I'm glad someone else has a little common sense. This is still a small, lightweight sports car. It isn't a family car. Does it have 4 doors, yup. Can you physically put 4 people inside of it, yup (I hope). However, to use this car as your #1 family car is a mistake. This car is more or less like a toy, not a practical drive the family everywhere sedan.

 

Both of you, consider yourselves flamed (again). What utter nonsense! Since when does having children mean that you're sentenced to a life of driving boredom? Since the RX-8 is expected to score top marks in the safety crash tests, just how is it any less safe to put a smaller person in the rear seat than in the rear seat of a boring seedan? (Hint: it's not) Aside from the "coolness factor", you guys obviously don't have children. You guys go right ahead and become boring old farts as soon as your first child is born. Let the rest of us continue to enjoy life to the fullest, including enjoying the driving experience in an interesting car. Exactly what can an Accord or Camry do that an RX-8 can't??? (Hint: nothing, aside from having slightly more luggage space) Sure, I'll concede if you're packing up the family for a two week camping trip then, the RX-8 is not a suitable vehicle. Otherwise - get real!

You buy a sports car because you really enjoy driving and want a car that is fun to drive; ideally, you buy a family car that is also fun to drive. Why on earth do you consider or insist that the two are mutually exclusive??? It's exactly that attitude that has condemned us to roadways clogged with dull, insipid, boring minivans and SUVs.

Wally, IMHO - live. Get the manual RX-8. Test-fit a stroller before you buy it, switch to a different stroller that fits if your current big-*** stroller doesn't. Enjoy your life, your kids will enjoy the RX-8 far more than a boring sedan as well! My daughter has ridden in my Miata with me since she was 2 - guess which car is her first pick to take if it's just two of us going somewhere? NOT the sedan.

Life is too short to drive boring cars. Even if, maybe especially if, you have kids.

Regards,
Gordon

 

well Gordon, i guess it is people like you that make driving sports cars boring by having to add those extra seats and doors, isn't it? wouldn't a sports car, logically, act more like a sports car without the extra doors and seats? would a Lamborghini, Ferrari, or Porche still define the very essence of what is a sports car if they included the back seats and 2 extra doors? you have to be joking...

let's get real, the 2004 RX-8 without the rear seats and 2 extra doors would be called the 2004 RX-7...the RX-8 needs to appeal to the masses by including those extra 2 seats/2 doors in order to gain appeal to the forthcoming RX-7...

but can you seriously sit there and think for one second that Mazda truly designed the car with backseat comfort in mind?!? just like any other 2+2 sports cars out there, they're there to serve a purpose (ahem, insurance) but you wouldn't want to sit there for more than you have to...let's face it, it's there when you HAVE to use it, you wouldn't want to sit in the backseat otherwise...

 

Man what an awesome post. Gord you are the man I completely agree with you.

Wally go for it. MAN.

 

I'M glad the RX-8 got good, if not excellent, safety ratings COMPARED TO THE CARS IN ITS CLASS (I.E. OTHER SMALL SPORTS CARS) You CAN'T compare safety ratings across other classes, due to the weight of the vehicle. It is an unfair advantage to the heavier vehicles regardless of air bags etc... According to the NCAP, "Depending on the weight of a vehicle, it can be compared to other vehicles in it's class. Since a frontal crash test into a fixed barrier is similar to a crash between two vehicles of the same weight, the frontal crash test results can only be compared to other vehicles in the same weight class and those plus or minus 250 lbs." And that, Gordon my friend, means that your precious RX-8 is meatloaf if you get into a head on collision with a heavier car.

Exactly. It is that extra weight and space that means the difference between your car getting totaled and depending on the air bags to SAVE your life, and just being in a accident where the air bag is just an added safety device.

Wrong. People buy sports cars because they want to show-off and in many cases they already have "other" cars to do *sensible* things with (i.e. driving the family around. People that don't have a car *usually* don't reach for a sports car as their only car, regardless of how much fun it is to drive. They reach for something that fits all their needs sensibly. When one has that type of car already and has extra cash to spend, then let the sport toys reign.


Agreed. The 8 will be more fun to drive then 95% of the cars out their. However, if the Miata was your only car and you're driving your 2 yr old daughter in it, you are being selfish. So you can have a fun time driving your car, your daughters life is much more at risk, then say in a Maxima. You make it sound like sedans are slow and trud through the streets. Cars are very responsive and handle extremely well and did I mention, ummmm, errrr, dare I say SAFER!

Grow up Gordon. You aren't 20 years old anymore (I hope). You don't need to have a sports car to feel "alive" (as you put it). And if you do....well I feel sorry for you.

 

And Gordon one more thing. When you respond back, I can't wait to read what you say, don't talk about how sports cars are fun to drive et al. No kidding. We all know that. The discussion is on safety of the 8 compared to other vehicles. In addition, try to come back with something of a technical aspect defending your position. Try not to just 'flame' people and take shots at them to get some laughs from other people. That is why people HATE FLAMERS. It isn't that you disagree that is a problem, it is just that you have nothing new to add stating your position and when you do (sports cars=fun to drive) it isn't related one bit to the topic at hand.

Regards,
Goldenhue22

 

Check with your local police department, but I believe there is a point when a child needs to use a 5-point rather than the fat arm. My boys fit just fine in 5-points when they were 2. You may find it to be worth springing for the new seat. Ideally, wait until you get the car, and ensure the baby, the seat, and the car all fit together nicely.
The seat you refer to was depicted in the press kit, and is not manufactured for the U.S. market. I know, because I scoured the internet just to figure out what it was, and saw them available in the U.K., but not U.S. If memory serves it is a Britax, but forgot the exact model (Roundabout, perhaps?). I'd be surprised to see it at our dealerships. Fortunately my boys are big enough for boosters - theirs match the red/black interior.

On that subject, our primary family vehicle is the Sante Fe, and the RX-8 is mine. The whole family WILL be riding in the RX-8 from time to time, but not on a regular basis. Not like we'd be able to do the grocery shopping in the thing - not for a family of four, plus 2 dogs and 2 cats. Maybe a few drives to the beach - that sort of thing. Also, when it's just the boys and me out mucking about. It'll definitely be better seating for them than my 240SX.

 

I'm with Gordon. Depends on where you live. A lot of people don't have the luxury of having more than one car including me. If I wanted a toy just for myself then I would have kept my S2000 but I'd never have had time to use it - my spare time is with my family. I don't buy your safety arguments either. You've got to plan not to crash! If you get totalled in your RX-8 and injure your family that might be better than you killing yourself in an S2000 going crazy because there is nobody else in the car, leaving your family without a Dad. Out here I don't have SUV's to bulldoze me anyway.

 

Okay, I remembered that the child seat in the press kit was a Britax Duo Isofix... as for the argument that the RX-8 is unsafe for children:

What defines the vehicle class? From your post it would sound as if the only distinction for crash testing is the weight of the vehicle. If that is true, then by your rationale my kids also don't belong in a Civic (2652 lbs.) or a Corolla (2502 lbs.) by a longshot. Not only that, but an Accord LX at 3099 lbs. is only marginally heavier than the RX-8 (3029 lbs.). A Camry LE curbs at 3142 lbs., an Altima 2.5 curbs at 3049 lbs., and a Maxima GXE curbs at 3233 lbs. By your 250lb. rule, crash test results CAN be compared between these cars and the RX-8. So, how does it rate in comparison? Let us know, because now we are all very interested to hear why the RX-8 is an unsafe vehicle. Does the DOT and NHTSA know what a deathtrap the car is? Well, Gordon, looks we'll have to go buy Hummers instead...oh darn :D

Edit: My curb weight data for the RX-8 came from Mazda, and curb weights for the other 2003 model cars came from Kelley Blue Book.

 

OMG you yanks have to stop putting 5ton trucks on your roads thinking there safer.

Half your road deaths come from SUV's and trucks rolling over, thats hardly saf, the US has an appaling record (compared to the UK) on road saftey.

You guys need to look at yourselves and your attitudes before pointing fingers at what I'd call a fairly normal sized car.

Stop driving drunk, use seatbelts, dont rely on super huge cars with high centres of gravity and more airbags than zepplins to save you.

IMo to the first poster try the RX-8 when theres a test car. Dont get an auto, sports cars are manual, its not that hard to drive a manual and so much more fun/sporty.

If your kids push chair doesnt fit get one that does, dont let a $100 item that you wont use for more than a year stop you buying the car that you want.

Oh and I dont think the RX-8 is lightweight. Its 1400kgs, lighweight is the lotus elise (750kg or 1650llbs) or something like a caterham (430kg or 964llbs). The RX-8 is actualy hevier than my current car a ford focus I believe, which is a standard small family car here.

 

Seems fair.

 

If this is your family car than you should rather get the auto. If I lived in the U.S. I certainly would! If 210HP are not enough for your family car -- I don't know... The performance difference will not be SO big deal, some tenth of a second 0-60 and some MPH less, SO WHAT?

I look out for the 192HP manual 5-speed here in Europe. That should be a wonderful car!

 

You may speak for yourself, but with that statement you certainly do not speak for me. I don't give a damn what other people think of my vehicles - and that doesn't mean I don't keep my vehicles in top condition cosmetically and mechanically, but I do it for me and for my enjoyment, not for showing off. Speaking of growing up... While I wouldn't be caught dead in an Aztek (well, for many reasons), and a Z4 isn't to my liking style-wise, there's very few vehicles where style and what other people think of them that would influence my choice of vehicles. If that were a factor, I'd be scared to drive a Miata because some rednecks might think I was gay for driving a "girlie car"! 90% of people out there know diddly about cars, so why on earth should their opinions matter to me and why should I be wasting my time trying to impress them??

Quote:

The 8 will be more fun to drive then 95% of the cars out their. However, if the Miata was your only car and you're driving your 2 yr old daughter in it, you are being selfish. So you can have a fun time driving your car, your daughters life is much more at risk, then say in a Maxima. You make it sound like sedans are slow and trud through the streets. Cars are very responsive and handle extremely well and did I mention, ummmm, errrr, dare I say SAFER!

I am raising my children to be responsible, but to live life with enjoyment and gusto, and am teaching them to approach adventures with safety in mind but with excitement also in mind. I certainly will not be teaching them to hide in the closet and to avoid any risk at all cost. I will NOT drive a Volvo because it might score 2% higher in a safety test. I "retired" from the Volunteer Ski Patrol at Lake Louise near Banff, Alberta (one of the top ski resorts on the continent) after 15 years of patrolling - I know the risks of skiing better than 99% of participants in the sport, since I spent years hauling them off the mountain in toboggans. Yet I choose to accept those risks for myself because the pleasure and enjoyment of the sport far outweigh the risks, and the risks can be minimized and managed. I taught my son to ski, my wife to ski, and I'm teaching my daughter to ski (because they all want to participate in the sport). Is skiing a risky sport? Perhaps, certainly more so than watching hockey on TV. But done properly, risks can be minimized. But life is in the living, it's in the adventure and in the excitement. SAFETY is NOT the overriding concern that will govern my life or those of my children (It's always a factor and an important consideration, don't get me wrong). It would be grossly irresponsible of me to turn them into paranoid shadows of people who are afraid to judge activities for themselves and who would refuse to participate in activities because they've got an element of risk.

Quote:

Grow up Gordon. You aren't 20 years old anymore (I hope). You don't need to have a sports car to feel "alive" (as you put it). And if you do....well I feel sorry for you.

You might think of it as growing up, I'd think of it as abandoning excitement and dooming my kids to boredom. I previously said that it would be a shame to turn into an old fart as soon as you have children - to put it another way, age is a state of mind - you're only as old as you feel and act. I've never driven drunk, I maintain my cars religiously, I won't drive on all-season tires in winter because they're not safe, I put a rollbar in my Miata, I take performance driving schools not just because they're fun, but because I believe in active safety and avoiding "accidents" rather than riding them through in the safest tank available (PS, there are no such things as car accidents - there is always a cause, and it's always preventable. Call them incidents instead).

By your arguments, I should be buying the biggest, heaviest vehicle I can possibly find, because you seem to equate mass with safety. I vehemently disagree - perhaps if you intend to crash into a wall or another vehicle, and presuming that the massive vehicle is properly engineered with respect to controlled crush and energy management (and that's not at all a safe assumption to make), then you'd be right. However, I much prefer a vehicle which will give me some capability to avoid an accident before it happens - active safety features are much more a priority to me than passive safety (by the way, did I mention that I've disabled both airbags in my Miata? Stupidest, most asinine government nanny regulation ever imposed, all because Americans refused to wear seatbelts in any significant number).

Now, you may insist that the discussion is about safety of the RX-8 compared to other family vehicles - but I didn't see that subject in any of the questions asked by Wally in the first post in this thread, other than to ask how child seats fit. YOU equate family vehicles with crash safety above all else. Wally didn't, and I don't, and many others don't as well. Sure, we want to drive safe vehicles - but we do not want to be forced to choose massive, heavy, tanks that crash well into walls but have poor active safety, and that are deadly boring to steer around in a stupor. There are alternatives, and my priorities are obviously different than yours.

Regards,
Gordon

 

Amen, brother. I can't believe it is 2003, and the American obsession with LARGE vehicles to haul our fat butts still thrives. When will we get over ourselves and lighten up (no pun intended)?

 

Good morning! Because of the late hour, I forgot one or two points for this discussion in my previous post!

"Safety" is all relative, anyway... would you feel that a 1974 Suburban is safer than an RX-8? Yes, it has a whole lot more mass, but aside from that it has zero thought given to crash safety in it's design. I'd guarantee that you'd be far less safe in a 74 Suburban than an RX-8. Even just considering sedans, since I don't want to be accused of exaggerating, I'd still say that the RX-8 is safer than 90% of the sedans currently on the road, regardless of size.

For example, would you feel safer in a 1994 Pontiac Bonneville or a 2004 RX-8? There's no question in my mind that the RX-8 is infinitely better engineered and designed for occupant protection than the 10 years older, significantly larger, GM family sedan, and that in a head-on collision between the two, I'd far sooner have my kids in the RX-8. So do you suggest that someone carrying children in a 94 Bonneville is selfish and unnecessarily endangering their children?

Safety is all relative - taken to extremes, you'd never let your kids go outside, thered' be no bath tub in your house, no electricity or heating in your house, no cooking facility, etc. You have to find an acceptable balance. Bike riding is risky and dangerous - do you refuse to cycle or refuse to let your kids cycle, or do you and your kids wear bike helmets and practice awareness and safety guidelines while enjoying the activity?

Relatively speaking, riding in ANY passenger vehicle on public roads is less safe than staying home - where do you draw the line? Again, with my mechanical engineering background and enthusiasm for autos spanning 30 years (by the way, I'm 43), I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that the engineering of safety features and crash safety in the RX-8 makes it one of the more safe sub-truck vehicles on the road in any size. Not the safest, but safe enough. As for the Miata - again, it's relative, but the MX-5 is one seriously well designed car - one of our Miataforum members wrote recently that their son was driving his Miata when a Subaru Forester crossed the center line on a curve and they collided head-on. The Miata driver survived with relatively minor injuries, the woman driving the Subaru died.

There's no guarantees based on arbitrary government tests, and you can't let paranoia govern your life. Be reasonable in taking safety into consideration, and enjoy life! Another example - a different Miataforum member is a dermatologist - given the increasing rates of skin cancer from sun exposure, not necessarily the sort of person you'd expect to own a convertible, right? He has written about reasonable precautions to take when cruising top down (sunblock, hat, etc), but he certainly doesn't advocate that people no longer drive convertibles nor that they stay out of the sun (well, aside from peak hours of 10 - 2 :D).

Regards,
Gordon

 

good morning, sorry i misssed out on the conversation...

now let's not forget what the original main point of this thread is...it's whether the RX-8 would suffice as your everyday family car...this thread is NOT about "living life to the fullest even after you have kids and a wife"...

so let's answer the question of CAN the RX be used as an everyday family car? well yes...the real question however, is SHOULD you use it as an everyday family car? the answer is clearly no...

the original poster asked how fitting the child safety seat was...well i'm sure it fits but are you gonna want to struggle getting your child or the child seat in and out of the cramped back seat EVERYDAY?

he also asked if the stroller would fit in the trunk...most likely not...i heard that you can't push the back seats down but there is a pass through bin you can open...it MAY fit through there...i suggest going into the dealer and test driving one first...

as for the mid-life crisis thing, well all i can say is you have a responsibility to your wife and child to provide for them...getting a sporst car is clearly a choice for yourself...the ideal car for a family is a family car, one that COMFORTABLY seats 4 or more people and has EASY ACCESS to the back seats...a sports car should not take the place of a family car...

 

OK, this I have to put an end to. This statement is just purely incorrect. Take a look at this link: http://www.suv.com/suvsafety/ and let me quote from that link (not the only place that will tell you the same thing): "Since SUVs do better in collisions than cars, and there are more collisions than roll overs, the safety edge goes to the SUVs." Next Fellright goes on to say, "If you look at overall fatality rates, sport utility vehicles have a lower fataltiy rates than do passenger cars."

I own the truck pictured below and although it's still street legal, I built it for offroad use. The only time I drive it is to and back from the trails. Now I am a huge rotary fan and love the RX-8 and will be buying one, but you can't for a second tell me that someone in the RX-8 will have a greater chance of survival than someone in a larger vehicle should they go head-to-head with this truck or an 18-wheeler. Only a very small percentage of highway deaths occur in SUV's as opposed to passenger cars. The media has just blown the whole SUV thing out of proportion to gain ratings.

Now this being said, I think driving techniques are far more important to have than relying on your vehicle to protect you in a crash. I would take superior driving skills (something that's missing from the vast majority of drivers) and a nimble car over a safer, but clumsy vehicle any day. Avoiding an accident is far better than hoping to survive one. I too think too many Americans are buying SUV's than is justified by need. SUV's serve a purpose, but too many soccer moms are buying them to feel superior on the road without a need for a truck or thinking about the significance of owning an SUV.

 

I support all of the people who are getting the RX-8 and have children that will be traveling with them in the vehicle. Mazda did design the RX-8 as a sporty sedan to accommadate not only to people like you and I but to the majority of people in the market for something that seats more than just 2 people and has virtually no trunk space. My father is corporate Mazda and trust me when I say that the RX-8 is tops on safety features. My father would not in any way shape nor form encourage me to drive a vehicle with his granddaughters were it not safe or accommodating. It burns me up that everyone assumes because you have kids you should drive a volvo, or some huge SUV......as most of my friends do. I however buck the trend. Why must it be a Suburban, or Volvo, or BMW to drive? Its programming that is drilled into friends, family and others by the people who made the post in the room insuating that the RX-8 is not the right choice for anyone with children or family. What a crock of crap that was. Our family has several vehicles and we are fortunate enough to have the money to afford them. I could have bought a Hummer....but why? Because its huge, over priced, and a gas guzzler? I came very close to buying a BMW (which my father called junk) and the only reason was becasue of the name. I do own a Mini van (and shutter at the sound of it) which is of course a Mazda MPV (2001)with the entertainment package (which is great for my kids). I bought it because my father got it for me at an unbelievable price and I use it for trips often. I am however also getting a Silver RX-8 and you can rest assured that I will be driving that at every oppurtunity....with my kids sitting happily in their car seats in the back seat. If I were not as fortunate as I am to have as many vehicles, I would still buy the RX-8 and drive my girls in it. I was thrilled when my father first informed me that Mazda was going to be producing the RX-8 and it was a 4 seater, and when I saw the first pictures it was even better than I had imagined. I can't wait to get mine and my girls are just as excited. I would choose driving that over the mini van, any of our trucks or other sports car. This car is made for a diverse market and kudos to Mazda for its innovative design. BTW...my father owns a mint condition 3rd generation RX-7 twin turbo and he wouldn't trade that for any vehicle on the market today...including the RX-8. That vehicle was made not to accomade family. My sister still lives at home with him and he still won't let her drive it. In fact he doesn't like anyone drving it but him......its as much a member of the family as we are. I am sure I will end up being just as possessive over my RX-8.

 

Totally agree with you. I think the RX-8 is a great family car if your emphasis is on driving. Some families prefer the extra space of a minivan or SUV and that's understandable too.

BTW, if you don't mind me asking: who is your father and how is he "corporate Mazda"? Inquiring minds want to know?