Thoughts on first test drive of an 8
11-16-2007, 02:08 PM
#78
11-16-2007, 04:10 PM
#82
Grand Chancellor
For all those immature children out there!
That is US $ right?? I paid....Canadian$$
April 30, 2007 - New 2006 GT, Velocity Red with sunroof...
List - $41,400
Dealer Discount - $4000 (+520 Pre Delivery Expense)
_______________________
MSRP $37,920
Freight $755
Air Tax $100
Fuel $75
Theft Pkg $299
Ext. Warr.(72/160km) $2349
Other(upgrades/MSKit)$6884 [All upgrades listed in sig.]
Gold Pkg. $895 (FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND AND NEED THINGS SPELT OUT...Gold Pkg. is electronic rust inhibitor, paint sealant & leather protectant)
All which I requested! Not the dealer tacking on anything...
__________________________
.
That is US $ right?? I paid....Canadian$$
April 30, 2007 - New 2006 GT, Velocity Red with sunroof...
List - $41,400
Dealer Discount - $4000 (+520 Pre Delivery Expense)
_______________________
MSRP $37,920
Freight $755
Air Tax $100
Fuel $75
Theft Pkg $299
Ext. Warr.(72/160km) $2349
Other(upgrades/MSKit)$6884 [All upgrades listed in sig.]
Gold Pkg. $895 (FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND AND NEED THINGS SPELT OUT...Gold Pkg. is electronic rust inhibitor, paint sealant & leather protectant)
All which I requested! Not the dealer tacking on anything...
__________________________
.
$895 for Gold package... now I know you must be taking it backwards on this one. Leather protectant.... rust inhibitor. Is this your first car? I thought your husband's a lawyer?
11-19-2007, 08:52 AM
#86
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
"As with the fluid coupling, the torque converter takes the place of a mechanical clutch. Unlike a fluid coupling, however, a torque converter is able to multiply torque when there is a substantial difference between input and output rotational speed, thus providing the equivalent of a reduction gear."
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter4.htm
Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission.
Are they both wrong? I've never done any real work on AT's and definitely no tuning, so what I know is only what I've read.
Do you know how a torque converter works?
11-19-2007, 10:40 AM
#87
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Skrubol, there is no such thing a free power.
While a torque converter can work as a reduction gear if we really needed that we could put in a higher final drive and get the same effect.
I believe the AT has a lower final drive (or is it higher, I forget which way it goes) that probably cancels out any gear reduction that the torque converter does.
Probably the main advantage a torque converter is it allows you easily rev your engine to the point your wheels start loosing traction. While with a manual it take quite a bit more skill.
Furthermore ideally when engaging the clutch, the revs shouldn't drop much (if at all). I've been told that revs should never stop climbing once you have started the process of moving your car, at most they should slow or pause at the point of clutch engagement. i.e. rev, engage clutch, continue to add gas.
From your earlier posts you sounds like you are lugging your engine. (I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but I got tired of reading this thread.)
While a torque converter can work as a reduction gear if we really needed that we could put in a higher final drive and get the same effect.
I believe the AT has a lower final drive (or is it higher, I forget which way it goes) that probably cancels out any gear reduction that the torque converter does.
Probably the main advantage a torque converter is it allows you easily rev your engine to the point your wheels start loosing traction. While with a manual it take quite a bit more skill.
Furthermore ideally when engaging the clutch, the revs shouldn't drop much (if at all). I've been told that revs should never stop climbing once you have started the process of moving your car, at most they should slow or pause at the point of clutch engagement. i.e. rev, engage clutch, continue to add gas.
From your earlier posts you sounds like you are lugging your engine. (I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but I got tired of reading this thread.)
Last edited by SmokeyTheBalrog; 11-19-2007 at 11:19 AM.
11-19-2007, 10:47 AM
#88
Destroying Threads
The AT has massively Taller 5th and 6th gear, so much taller that 6th gear is virtually useless beyond 80mph, it cannot and will not accelerate beyond that much in 6th gear..............
the torque converter on the AT doesn't really do much, but it does put alot more torque that u can feel down low more than the MT which feels smoother
unlaunched MT vs unlanched AT street.........the AT will be faster up to 30mph.........then its good bye.
can't we go back to bashing civics? why bash on your own brothers when you have so many other cars to bash on?
the torque converter on the AT doesn't really do much, but it does put alot more torque that u can feel down low more than the MT which feels smoother
unlaunched MT vs unlanched AT street.........the AT will be faster up to 30mph.........then its good bye.
can't we go back to bashing civics? why bash on your own brothers when you have so many other cars to bash on?
11-19-2007, 12:00 PM
#89
I did, just to make sure I wasn't posting bad info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
"As with the fluid coupling, the torque converter takes the place of a mechanical clutch. Unlike a fluid coupling, however, a torque converter is able to multiply torque when there is a substantial difference between input and output rotational speed, thus providing the equivalent of a reduction gear."
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter4.htm
Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission.
Are they both wrong? I've never done any real work on AT's and definitely no tuning, so what I know is only what I've read.
Do you know how a torque converter works?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
"As with the fluid coupling, the torque converter takes the place of a mechanical clutch. Unlike a fluid coupling, however, a torque converter is able to multiply torque when there is a substantial difference between input and output rotational speed, thus providing the equivalent of a reduction gear."
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter4.htm
Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission.
Are they both wrong? I've never done any real work on AT's and definitely no tuning, so what I know is only what I've read.
Do you know how a torque converter works?
Now...that said...look up how AT transmissions work...specifically focus on the clutch packs and internals...
THEN...look up or figure out why Mazda imposed a rev limit on your shift points...and then try to deduce WHY....
You are almost at your answer...
11-19-2007, 12:02 PM
#90
The AT has massively Taller 5th and 6th gear, so much taller that 6th gear is virtually useless beyond 80mph, it cannot and will not accelerate beyond that much in 6th gear..............
the torque converter on the AT doesn't really do much, but it does put alot more torque that u can feel down low more than the MT which feels smoother
unlaunched MT vs unlanched AT street.........the AT will be faster up to 30mph.........then its good bye.
can't we go back to bashing civics? why bash on your own brothers when you have so many other cars to bash on?
the torque converter on the AT doesn't really do much, but it does put alot more torque that u can feel down low more than the MT which feels smoother
unlaunched MT vs unlanched AT street.........the AT will be faster up to 30mph.........then its good bye.
can't we go back to bashing civics? why bash on your own brothers when you have so many other cars to bash on?
Look at a dyno of both cars and compare them...or do the math...
Reality > Wishes
11-19-2007, 12:05 PM
#91
I did, just to make sure I wasn't posting bad info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
"As with the fluid coupling, the torque converter takes the place of a mechanical clutch. Unlike a fluid coupling, however, a torque converter is able to multiply torque when there is a substantial difference between input and output rotational speed, thus providing the equivalent of a reduction gear."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
"As with the fluid coupling, the torque converter takes the place of a mechanical clutch. Unlike a fluid coupling, however, a torque converter is able to multiply torque when there is a substantial difference between input and output rotational speed, thus providing the equivalent of a reduction gear."
11-20-2007, 12:36 PM
#92
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Why would I look up reduction gear? I take it you don't know what one is? Well, I couldn't find a good concise explanation online, so I'll go from my own (obviously minuscule knowledge.) A reduction gear reverses direction of rotation (which does not apply here,) reduces speed by 1/n (gear ratio, n>1) and increases torque by n less any frictional losses.
So... by that explanation, the torque converter will multiply the engine torque [when the output shaft is at a lower speed than the input shaft.]
I'm not arguing by any stretch that an AT RX8 can beat an MT RX8 at any race now. I thought maybe it could right off the line, but it seems I'm probably wrong on that one. I guess the AT drivetrain is just too detuned.
So... by that explanation, the torque converter will multiply the engine torque [when the output shaft is at a lower speed than the input shaft.]
I'm not arguing by any stretch that an AT RX8 can beat an MT RX8 at any race now. I thought maybe it could right off the line, but it seems I'm probably wrong on that one. I guess the AT drivetrain is just too detuned.
11-20-2007, 03:10 PM
#93
Why would I look up reduction gear? I take it you don't know what one is? Well, I couldn't find a good concise explanation online, so I'll go from my own (obviously minuscule knowledge.) A reduction gear reverses direction of rotation (which does not apply here,) reduces speed by 1/n (gear ratio, n>1) and increases torque by n less any frictional losses.
So... by that explanation, the torque converter will multiply the engine torque [when the output shaft is at a lower speed than the input shaft.]
I'm not arguing by any stretch that an AT RX8 can beat an MT RX8 at any race now. I thought maybe it could right off the line, but it seems I'm probably wrong on that one. I guess the AT drivetrain is just too detuned.
So... by that explanation, the torque converter will multiply the engine torque [when the output shaft is at a lower speed than the input shaft.]
I'm not arguing by any stretch that an AT RX8 can beat an MT RX8 at any race now. I thought maybe it could right off the line, but it seems I'm probably wrong on that one. I guess the AT drivetrain is just too detuned.
You seem legitimately interested which is why I have not simply flamed you or resorted to kittuahs...
11-21-2007, 09:51 AM
#94
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Just leading you down the path of discovery and pointing out some key subjects you might want to review...ultimately unless you understand it, its hard to really step back and take the 1000ft view...it also quickly turns into a defensive argument instead of an educational experience...
You seem legitimately interested which is why I have not simply flamed you or resorted to kittuahs...
You seem legitimately interested which is why I have not simply flamed you or resorted to kittuahs...
11-21-2007, 10:02 AM
#95
11-26-2007, 01:14 PM
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How about something useful. There's no way I'd buy an automatic sports car of any kind, so knowing the RX8 AT has much lower performance doesn't mean much to me.
My point is that as far as I can tell, you've been saying that torque converters are not able to have higher torque at the output than at the input, yet every bit of info posted seems to point to the contrary.
My point is that as far as I can tell, you've been saying that torque converters are not able to have higher torque at the output than at the input, yet every bit of info posted seems to point to the contrary.
11-26-2007, 01:35 PM
#97
How about something useful. There's no way I'd buy an automatic sports car of any kind, so knowing the RX8 AT has much lower performance doesn't mean much to me.
My point is that as far as I can tell, you've been saying that torque converters are not able to have higher torque at the output than at the input, yet every bit of info posted seems to point to the contrary.
My point is that as far as I can tell, you've been saying that torque converters are not able to have higher torque at the output than at the input, yet every bit of info posted seems to point to the contrary.
I double checked my posts to be sure...but...I do not think I can find where I said that...
"torque converters are not able to have higher torque at the output than at the input"
I know they do...but its not that simple...review...
FROM: http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Tech..._explained.asp
Stator --- the stator can be described as the "brain" of the torque converter, although the stator is by no means the sole determiner of converter function and characteristics. The stator, which changes fluid flow between the turbine and pump, is what makes a torque converter a torque converter (multiplier) and not strictly a fluid coupler.
With the stator removed, however, it will retain none of its torque multiplying effect. In order for the stator to function properly the sprag must work as designed: (1) It must hold the stator perfectly still (locked in place) while the converter is still in stall mode (slow relative turbine speed to the impeller pump speed) and (2) allow the stator to spin with the rest of the converter after the turbine speed approaches the pump speed. This allows for more efficient and less restrictive fluid flow.
The sprag is a one-way mechanical clutch mounted on races and fits inside the stator while the inner race splines onto the stator support of the transmission. The torque multiplier effect means that a vehicle equipped with an automatic transmission and torque converter will output more torque to the drive wheels than the engine is actually producing. This occurs while the converter is in its "stall mode" (when the turbine is spinning considerably slower than the pump) and during vehicle acceleration. Torque multiplication rapidly decreases until it reaches a ratio of 1:1 (no torque increase over crankshaft torque.) A typical torque converter will have a torque multiplication ratio in the area of 2.5:1. The main point to remember is that all properly functioning torque converters do indeed multiply torque during initial acceleration. The more drastic the change in fluid path caused by the stator from its "natural" return path, the higher the torque multiplication ratio a given converter will have. Torque multiplication does not occur with a manual transmission clutch and pressure plate; hence the need for heavy flywheels, very high numerical gear ratios, and high launch rpm. A more detailed discussion of torque multiplication can get very confusing to the layman as high multiplication ratios can be easily considered the best choice when in fact more variables must be included in the decision. Remember, the ratio is still a factor of the engine torque in the relevant range of the torque converter stall speed, i.e.: a converter with a multiplication ratio of 2.5:1 that stalls 3000 rpm will produce 500 ft.-lbs. of torque at the instance of full throttle acceleration if its coupled to an engine producing 200 ft.-lbs. of torque at 3000 rpm. However, if this same engine produces 300 ft.-lbs. of torque at 4000 rpm, we would be better off with a converter that stalled 4000 rpm with only a 2.0:1 torque multiplication ratio, i.e.: 300 x 2.0 = 600 ft.-lbs. at initial acceleration. Of course it would be better yet to have a 2.5:1 ratio with the 4000 rpm in this example (provided his combination still allows the suspension to work and the tires don't spin.) This is just a brief overview as the actual scenarios are endless.
Also because you have to hit the "stall speed" the engine has to rev higher...so it gears down (remember "reduction gear"?) the input...for "more" torque until the "stall speed" is reached...and then it tapers off pretty quickly.
Last edited by eviltwinkie; 11-26-2007 at 01:42 PM.
11-26-2007, 01:40 PM
#98
Destroying Threads
twink, seriously, it isn't a wish, granted that I now have an rx8 MT, and I used to own an rx8AT (6speed)...........I cannot tell the damn difference between the two, except for the higher redline, which I guess would mean I go faster than the AT because I can shifter higher...........oh well, I haven't raced any AT in my MT yet, but I did race MTs in my AT and they can come in this thread right now and swear to you that my AT was never walked on by any of them (Except eddie's, but his 8 walked away from all of us.........)
