ByeByeSaturn

I wasn't that worried - I just didn't want my car to have been sitting in the 90 degree heat in LA for 3 weeks, and not because of a mixup, but because the dealer made it so. Let me ask you - what would you rather have happen to your car? And like I said before, I'm not overly concerned about any problems with the car, but I just wanted to know if Mazda could look into it for me. All they had to do is tell me what you guys told me here - i.e., that they use a special white coating. Instead, they told me it wasn't their problem, to take it up with the dealer, and if I didn't want the car don't take it. That's not a way to win business.

I think you are all missing the point of this thread. This thread is not about whether I should go to a different dealer or not and try to find another black 6-spd w/ Sport in the area (there are none coming until Summer btw according to Mazda), or whether or not my concerns about the car sitting in the 90 degree heat for 3 weeks are unwarranted. This thread is about Mazda telling me - Mazda, not the dealer, telling me that they don't care about my business and whether I'm a happy customer or not. That's it - period. I wasn't disrespectful to them at all, and that's the response I got. It's not like I was demanding they come over and shine my shoes and do my laundry in order for me to buy the car.

ByeByeSaturn

See DosDog, that's EXACTLY the type of reasoned answer I would have been more than happy to accept and would have thanked them for providing me with that information - however, their reason was different. the rep told me straight out "bottom line, it was the dealer preventing delivery" They made no attempt to offer me such an explanation as yours - they blamed the dealer, and then when I told them the dealer was blaming the port and had given me false information, they said - that's your problem, you deal with it - we don't want to get involved.

And the truth is, even without a formal answer to my question regarding delay, I would have been ok with it, but the fact that they just told me it's not their problem and to just screw the car if I wanted to floored me. They could have said - "We don't currently have the answers you are looking for - we know you're concerned about this car and the continued bad information you received from us regarding the delivery and the feeling you have that your dealer is being dishonest with you. we still value your business and want you to be a Mazda customer - can we help you find another one in the area to meet your needs?" how hard is that? just a little effort to show they still want me driving a Mazda.

TheDosDog

I haven't worked with MMA for many years but from my previous experience I found Mazda to be a great company producing high quality products and having great customer service. From my own recent experiences I too think the customer service from the corporate end is not what is once was. My perception is attibuted to a few (maybe one) bad apples on the phone suppoert line. But, my experience with dealer service level shows good inprovement over the years. Have you tried calling Mazda Customer Service back and talking to another CSR?

Tinkerer

Bye Bye Saturn,

Sometimes a company takes a stance like that if they perceive that the customer is unreasonable. It doesn't matter if you think you're not being unreasonable. I don't really know any of the details of your conversations, but when a company reaches that point their decision plays out fairly simply.

If they don't think they can satisfy you now, then they politely tell you what you didn't want to hear. They make that decision believing that you'll cop the same attitude (and I'm not saying you have one) over a cigarette lighter, the headlights, FLOODING, etc., and they make a judgement call that YOU are too difficult to have a relationship with.

If you really want the car go buy it and to get away from this episode get it serviced at a different dealership. If you think your problem is truly with Mazda, I think they've already told you politely and between the lines that they perceive you to be enough of a problem for them that they don't care if they have your business.

What they've really done is set the tone for anything else you may have a problem with where they think you're being unreasonable, i.e., Mr. Saturn, when we last spoke we told you to either buy the car or don't. If you're not happy with our service now perhaps you should go trade it in for a manufacturer you think you could be happy with. We've simply done all that we can for you in this (new issue) regard.

Sorry...

ByeByeSaturn

MAkes sense to me tinkerer, if I was difficult or antagonistic with them, but I wasn't Normally I'm more the type of person to be more accepting of these things because I'm just too lazy to deal with it. However, I do pick my battles, and this is one of them. Spending this much money deserves a certain level of service, and telling me to f$%! off and not bother them with my basic requests and questions about the dealership's service or the condition of the vehicle does not meet that level of service. By the way, there is an update to this continuing saga - see the first post in the thread.

BIMMER5&RX8

I think you should forget about this dealer. They don't deserve your business.

I believe I bought my car from the same dealer. The sales manager was a deceptive jerk. I did complain to the owner whose name is on the dealership. He made it right for me.

ByeByeSaturn

I just PMd you on that subject.

I'm feeling more enticed now to buy the car with this new $500 rebate that is lasting for 2 weeks. (See Dealership/Ordering/Financing Forum)

But I still worry about long-term service both from Mazda and the dealer.

Speed-ER doc

Interesting thread, both in the specific Mazda-related issues and in the general customer service implications.

I believe auto makers prefer to sell cars "spec" through their dealers. This is a quick and usually easy proposition, but sometimes you have to get a car not exactly as you would like, or have one sent from another location. When I looked at the G35C, there was no 6 speed manual loaded black specimen available anywhere in the US (or so they told me). So, luckily, I got the 8 the same day.

I could have ordered one, but it would have taken 3 months like your fiasco, and I for one, do not like to wait.

If you require special treatment or conditions in any transaction, you become somewhat of a problem customer, regardless of your self-perceived demeanor. Your insistence of "at or below invoice" pricing certainly didn't help in all likelihood.

Once you ordered the car, and it was "in transit," what exactly did you expect "Mazda" to do about it?

At some point, they perceived you to have unrealistic expectations that they could not meet. I see this all the time in the ER. A patient comes in, bags packed, family in tow, fully expecting to be admitted to the hospital for some chronic condition that does not require admission, and for which putting them in the hospital would be unjustified, unnecessary, and not helpful. Or they want an MRI today for their chronic back pain, or for a specialist to see them in the ER NOW.

Once someone has this mindset, that they have a problem that must be addressed in some way of their choosing, and you cannot meet their expectations, conflict ensues. At some point, either they give up and change their expectations, or they leave mad. I'm sure it is the same in ANY service business, this is just my own experience. You can only do what you can do. If you don't like it, g'by. Go elsewhere.

Just my .02.

ByeByeSaturn

I appreciate your input, but it is based on some misunderstandings. i mean nothing negative with any of what I'm saying here, so I hope you don't think I'm being critical of you.

1) I did not order the car. I found it doing a search, and went in and put a deposit on it.
2) I bargained on the price with the dealer, not Mazda. It is
Mazda who I have taken issue with.
3) Shopping around for the best price, and using this forum
to determine what a fair price is in this area is exactly what I
should do as a savvy customer. If you don't believe me,
ask others in the Bay Area what they have been paying for
their cars recently
4) I asked Mazda to write me a letter. I demanded nothing
unreasonable.
5) Prior to that, I asked them for nothing more than some sort of reliable information given that the car was inexplicably delayed. Another Bay Area, RX-8 owner on this forum, whose car arrived in the same shipment as mine on Feb. 13, got his car in late Feb. Clearly there was something different about my car, and I wanted to know why. Not unreasonable I don't think. They were able to tell me that the dealer was holding back delivery, and gave me a drop-dead "worst case scenario date" - yes, they said that exactly. That date was today. They didn't have to commit to a specific deadline - I didn't ask for that, but they did, and it didn't happen. So yeah, I was a little miffed about that.
So I call back and ask for some further assistance on finding out what's going on, ask how the car is being stored, etc. The sales rep told me she would look into it, and that I should call the dealer to see what they would tell me. Well , they told me something different than what they told Mazda, and started blaming the port and the truckers. So I grew suspicious that they would tell Mazda one thing and me another, and started to wonder if this was the sort of dealer I wanted to do business with - i.e., one that was purposely witholding delivery of my car and then lying to me about it. So I told this to my service rep and she sympathized and I thanked her many times for all her help. I asked her for a letter stating what the dealer told them, and she seemed receptive to that, until she spoke with her supervisor- that's when all hell broke loose, and my very friendly excited, happy communication with Mazda turned ugly. they basically told me to go f myself, and if I had issues with the dealer or with the condition of the car in storage, to take it up with them, and so I said straight out - "is your supervisor telling me that you don't care if I buy this car or not and that I'm a satisfied customer?" she said "yes" - that's when I grew angry, and a pretty minor issue in my mind became a huge issue. It is APALLING that a company trying to sell a product would treat a customer like that. The email I wrote to them after this simply stated that unless they could demonstrate to me that such bad attitude was an aberration, I would take my business elsewhere.

So, if you had the patience to read all of that, take it for what it's worth. I presented you facts, obviously from my side of the story. I'm not asking you all to give me the benefit of the doubt here as to my "attitude" when dealing with this. You may think I was a pain in the *** to them at all times. I know I wasn't. But guess what, now I am going to be a pain in the *** to them, because they just left me screwed. If I back out, I lose $500. So I will keep pressing and keep pressing, until I get an acceptable apology. That's what I'm fighting for now. I want to pick up the car a happy customer, because I am buying not just a car, but a relationship with a company, as cheezy as that sounds, it's true.

Speed-ER doc

<sigh>

Again, I agree, your issue was with the dealer. That is who you agreed to buy the car from. You weren't able to make a mutually satisfactory deal with an example "ready for purchase." You aggressively bargained for a good price. Good for you, I am envious (really).

Unfortunately you dragged "Mazda" into the equation. They probably slipped up by telling you of the "dealer delay." Maybe the dealer sold your car to someone paying more and is waiting on a replacement.

Your expectation that the company is going to give you ammunition against your dealer by writing a letter saying they are liars and crooks IS unreasonable, and that is where the interaction turns ugly.

When faced with an unreasonable request that cannot be met, the company has no choice but to cut you off. Yes, complain to the dealer. Yes, complain to the company. No, do not expect to get what you demand, because you will probably be (even more) unsatisfied.

It does suck the way you were treated, but it sounds like the dealer's fault, not the company's.

westie

I have to disagree Doc. I think Saturn's issue started with the dealer who may have sold the same car to someone else for more money (or worse damaged the car) and is now trying to screw him over to get out of a low profit deal.

Mazda NA is solely responsible to oversee & discipline their dealers in this kind of situation and make it right for their customers. They have abdicated their responsibility and compounded the issue by telling him they don't want his business. His issue is now with Mazda!

We had a similar situation with Mazda Canada in that they would not take responsibility for the lousy mileage our Aug 03 car was getting (12-14 mpg). Instead they kept telling me I must be driving it too hard and that the flooding was my fault for starting it wrong. If they had just acknowledged that our car had a problem and that they would work with me I would have been happy and kept the car (which we loved by the way).

Instead we regrettably took the buyback after 4 months and 6000km and in sharp contrast have been treated like gold by the Infiniti dealer and Infiniti Canada. Three weeks after we got our G35 coupe (not love but strong affection) we got a letter from Infiniti Canada telling us that all brake service would be free for the life of the car because they had received isolated reports of premature brake wear. Now that's how to keep customers! Guess whose SUV I'm looking at to replace our older Suburban.

In my opinion Saturn, forget Mazda, they don't deserve your business. I note sadly that Mazda has also mislead it's customers about HP, MPG, blown engines, flooding and everything else!

They are other car companies out there that get it! Good Luck!

PS sue them for the $500, they didn't meet your delivery date!

Speed-ER doc

I recommend Lexus. If you want a luxury SUV, the GX 470 is hard to beat (we have a 2004). The RX 330 is also available as a hybrid, and soon all the models will be hybrids. Lexus service defines the term, and their build quality and reliability are unsurpassed. The Infiniti FX 45 is great too, but Lexus rules.

When my wife took the GX in for service, the GM said "Do we have a loaner for her? If not, give her my car!"

When we bought the GX, he saw I was looking at the SC430, and he let us take it out to lunch, "bring it back whenever, take your time." Just tossed me the keys of that 62K beauty.

Now THAT'S service. I personally was not impressed with my local Infiniti dealer's service, they left me hanging in a cubicle way too long, and didn't have the same "customer-driven" attitude as Lexus. My Mazda dealer treated me better!

Of course, I never spoke with the company, but who does? The company makes cars, the dealers sell them.

edit: You kinda get what you pay for. Lets talk pizza delivery. If you are known to the driver as someone who doesn't tip, and the "other guy" is a big tipper, whose pizza is going to arrive sooner, regardless of whose order was placed first? Maybe Saturn's "invoice or below" deal got squeezed by a big tipper. Who knows? Maybe the car business doesn't work that way, but I think EVERYTHING in America works that way, for better or worse. And I don't think it is Mazda's fault.

ByeByeSaturn

I'm pretty confident the dealer is not trying to pull a bait and switch on me. The car I have a deposit on is listed by Mazda as not having arrived yet, so it is in noone else's hands. If it is, then I will just walk away with my $500 and never touch Mazda again.

As for the letter, you are absolutely right that it is unreasonable for me to expect Mazda to write a letter accusing the dealership of lying. In fact, the customer service rep told me the same thing. I told her that I totally understand that and that I wouldn't ask and wasn't asking for that. I told her it is up to me to draw the conclusions, not Mazda, and that I only wish for a letter stating what the dealer told them. That letter, in combination with my record of what the dealer told me, would be sufficient for me to draw my own conclusions and confront the dealer and demand some sort of explanation Now, you can make the argument that by giving me the ammunition to accuse the dealer of being dishonest, even if they aren't making the accusation themselves, Mazda is essentially indirectly accusing the dealer of dishonesty too. I'm not sure I would have accepted that, but regardless, they didn't try to address that point, they simply told me that it was my problem and to walk away if I wanted to, ignoring the fact that I had $500 already in the car, and ignoring the fact that I wanted to make sure I got the car in good condition. They could have easily said, "we apologize for the repeated delays and misinformation, and we still want you to be a satisfied customer, so if this car isn't right for you, perhaps we can help you find another one in the area at a different dealer which will meet your needs."

I realize I'm probably fast earning myself a bad repuation on this board with some people, and if that's the case, so be it. If some of you think I'm just a whiner, you're entitled to your opinion. I want nothing more than to get some sort of positive resolution out of this and publicly laud Mazda for setting things straight.

But I'm not that optimistic - let's face it, Mazda does not exactly have a reputation for being the best at customer service, so my situation can not be all that unique - I just reached a point where I decided to battle this , and if it's a losing proposition for me as some of you suggest, then so be it, but I'm not going to back down just yet. If you knew me, you would be surprised that I am doing this, but they managed to push my buttons, and so here I am.

Mr M

Haaaa.....(deep sigh!)
I can understand your anticipation, but I really think you have enough information (in this thread) to go out and solve this issue.

The dealer: If you don't trust them, then drop them! I would never give $30,000 to someone I don't trust. If you really want the car, then you are at their mercy, which means you have no choice but to do what they want (wait).

MNAO: Send a letter (not e-mail) to the supervisor of whoever was impolite to you. Make a formal complaint. Handle it as a separate issue to the dealer one.

Go get 'em tiger!

TheDosDog

Good customer service usually dictates "the customer is always right". But in this case you have to realize the dealer is Mazda's customer, not us. In a prepurchase dispute they usually side with the dealer as they have no legal obligation to you. I echo the advice, leave Mazda Corp. out of this. Find another car (8 or not) and dealer. Then take the dealer to small claims court to retrieve your deposit.

ByeByeSaturn

See that's where Mazda goes wrong - that's IMO a bad philosophy to have as a car company. There are only as many Mazdas out there on the road as there are customers of the dealer driving them. Mazda can only sell to the dealer when the dealer sells to us, else of course the unsold inventory would be too great (as in my case ) The dealer is ultimately the one representing the product and the company to the customer, so you would think Mazda would want a dealer network that does not turn people away with deception, and represents it fairly. I fully excpect dealerships to lie and decieve, but I expect the company behind them to only allow this to happen insofar as it generates sales, and at the point a customer is considering abandoning the product because of it, step in. The very fact that other posters could mention other car companies - Lexus, etc., that have such a philosophy means that this is not an unrealistic expectation.

The dealer is telling me they've been working hard to get the car out of the port and that it will be here on Wed. Of course, that's after saying it would be here this weekend, and then Monday. But now there is this extra $500 if I finance through Mazda which runs out in the end of March, so the temptation grows. Ultimately, I don't have to get my car serviced there, so if I can just use them to get the exact car I want at what will end up being at a great price, my decision comes down to whether I want to be a Mazda customer or not. It's really tough to decide, because I really like the car.

Speed-ER doc

Good luck with your decision.

Mazda is making inroads into the customer service game, with the roadside assist program and free loaner cars with service. However, the actual practice leaves much to be desired.

Who the hell wants to drive a 4-banger Protege instead of an 8? If they really wanted to give service, they would put their best customers into a 6 or even a 3 (another 8 is probably asking too much). Heck, a Miata would be even better! And the RSA stories I have read here are a disaster.

Of course with Lexus you DON'T NEED their RSA program because their cars are so perfect, but when you drive their loaner 300ES, at least you don't feel abused. The biggest difference is attitude, which has to be experienced to be believed.

All that being said, the RX-8 is a wonderful car and imo worth the mechanical problems and Mazda hassles which some have experienced. This car requires a bit more care and attention than some, but that aspect is paradoxically kind of endearing. I predict if you can be patient a bit longer, you will fall in love too...

ByeByeSaturn

My coworker said

"Never fall in love with a car, because it will never love you back."

Well, he hasn't driven the RX-8 like I have

Ultimately, you're right Speed. I asked Mazda for more than they were willing to deliver, and I expected more out of a company selling this car, and maybe I shouldn't have given their reputation , history and way of doing business. I still plan to write a letter, but I don't want to be upset when I pick up the car, if I get it that is. I want to be as excited as I've been the last 3 months, otherwise I'm just ruining the experience for myself, or rather letting them ruin it for me. I really feel bad for the engineers and designers of this car, who put so much sweat and brain-power into building a great machine, only to have it then represented by a company like Mazda. They deserve to see more of these on the road than on the lots.

If I thought there was an alternative car for me, I would leave, but if I don't get the RX-8, I'm not getting anything. I don't need a car (I've got my trusty '99 SL2 5-spd) - I just want THIS car. It will be bittersweet if I pick up the car. Bitter = Mazda, Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet = the car.

I just hope if I get it that all my worries will disappear and the car will treat me well for the 4 years or so that I plan to keep it, as it has so far for the majority of the people on this forum. If you take away the flooding issue, which is preventable, and the gas mileage, which Mazda is working on with ECM reflashes, then the problems with this car really boil down to occassional manual transmission failures and small interior fit and finish issues. Oh, and jealous onlookers :D

Nubo

Good luck with whatever decision you make. I gotta think that if you're still keen on having the car and can afford to wait, then time is on your side. The longer they keep screwing up the more leverage you have and who knows, you just might get some type of additional consideration.

As far as the dealer selling the car out from under you as has been suggested, I'd love to know how that works legally. I think I read that you have the VIN... Is the VIN# of the car on your deposit receipt? If so, I'd think there would be some hell to pay with corporate and perhaps even legally if they sold to someone else while you had a deposit down. I gotta think this didn't happen but who knows maybe they're playing their cards trying to get you to give up. You did drive a good bargain.

I don't blame you at all for trying to get answers from customer assistance. Heck! that's what they're for. I hooked up with them several times during my order/delivery process. In fact, I was told by my salesperson to expect information from them as the process went on.

I can understand how they got spooked when you started asking for written documentation of their correspondence with the dealer - puts them in a tough spot. But it appears they did handle it terribly by essentially telling you to walk. There's always a few bad apples in any large organization but if you take it up the ladder there's almost always someone very interested in fixing the problem.

ByeByeSaturn

I bumped the thread (see update in first post) to advertise a poll I started. I hope that wasn't too selfish of me, but I need to make a decision soon, and any input would be greatly appreciated. I will accept criticism as well

Thanks.

Winning_BlueRX8

Essentially, you want the dealership to sell you a car without turning a profit, and at the same time you are expecting stellar customer service. Ironic!

Winning_BlueRX8

Very well said.

ByeByeSaturn

Huh?

If the dealer agrees to something, they agree to something. I wasn't twisting anyone's arm. Why should their honesty be proportional to my assertiveness in the bargaining process. If they didn't want the deal, they wouldn't have given it to me, they wouldn't sign the deal and then say, oh crap, why did we do that - he just took us, so let's sic him with some bad service!

IJM

ByeByeSaturn,

If I was in your position, I'd find out who the top guy in Mazda NA is and write him a personal letter detailing your experiences. Address it "Personal and Private", so it goes directly to him and not any of his flunkies. Keep it nice, polite, reasoned and objective.

I think you'll be surprised at what results it might get you.

Ian.

Winning_BlueRX8

haha. No man, I was just pointing out the irony. You sound like a whiner to me. If you're not happy with the dealership, why not just take back your money and go elsewhere? What are you honestly hoping to achieve by sticking it out at this dealership? Do you just want them to admit they lied to you...? News flash: dealerships lie all the time. It's not a novel concept. Take your money and go elsewhere! This whole ordeal should be an indicator to you of what future service is going to be like. Unfortunately, I have no sympathy for those "at or below" invoice customers.