US RX-8 sales (not good)
03-04-2006, 08:57 PM
#252
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Just for giggles someone compare a WRX, EVO, or SRT4 engine (or any other turbo engine) without the turbos to a Renesis or just for the hell of it, to an LS1. Let's see how fast the tables turn and who takes what side then! Would that then mean that the only thing that would make those cars worth buying or keeping is a simple few hundred dollar snail shaped hairdryer in the exhaust path? Things that make you go hmmm....?
Take away their turbos, stiff factory suspension and all you have is a enonobox. The rx7s and 8s are pure sportscars. They are born that way. You can't change or take that away. But I suppose if you take their cheating turbos and stiff suspension away they'd say, "We are pure econoboxes, We get 32.5 miles a gallon. We are great".
03-04-2006, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Just for giggles someone compare a WRX, EVO, or SRT4 engine (or any other turbo engine) without the turbos to a Renesis or just for the hell of it, to an LS1. Let's see how fast the tables turn and who takes what side then! Would that then mean that the only thing that would make those cars worth buying or keeping is a simple few hundred dollar snail shaped hairdryer in the exhaust path? Things that make you go hmmm....?
Also, as far as your previous post, I agree with much of what you say. Until you get to the sales being fine part. It was made very public what Mazda's sales goals were for the RX-8, the car fell well short of those goals the first year and has sold worse and worse as time passes. A small drop in sales is to be expected as a model ages, but what has happened to the RX-8 is pitiful. Discounting a car heavily after the first MY, tons of cars sitting on dealer lots and doing so for several months/years would tell any logical person that the RX-8 isn't selling as well as Mazda thought it would. Whether or not it's still profitable or if Mazda will keep selling it is something none of us can answer definitively.
If the sales stay where they are now I think this is it for the RX-8, we may see a MY07 but it won't be a full production year and there will not be any changes. This is purely a guess on my part and I hope I'm wrong. I'd love to see Mazda add power and keep the rotary alive, even a redesigned RX-8 would be exciting. But I just don't see Mazda being able to justify the R&D costs to make a second gen. RX-8 when sales have fallen far short of their goals.
03-04-2006, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Roaddemon
Take away their turbos, stiff factory suspension and all you have is a enonobox. The rx7s and 8s are pure sportscars. They are born that way. You can't change or take that away. But I suppose if you take their cheating turbos and stiff suspension away they'd say, "We are pure econoboxes, We get 32.5 miles a gallon. We are great".
03-04-2006, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike
If the sales stay where they are now I think this is it for the RX-8, we may see a MY07 but it won't be a full production year and there will not be any changes. This is purely a guess on my part and I hope I'm wrong. I'd love to see Mazda add power and keep the rotary alive, even a redesigned RX-8 would be exciting. But I just don't see Mazda being able to justify the R&D costs to make a second gen. RX-8 when sales have fallen far short of their goals.
Mazda has been marketing rotary engined sports cars since 1978 continuously - but was out of the US market from 1996 to 2003. I cannot see them cutting again - but if so - it will our loss in the US .... although my RX-8 will look better as an investment.
03-04-2006, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Roaddemon
Take away their turbos, stiff factory suspension and all you have is a enonobox. The rx7s and 8s are pure sportscars. They are born that way. You can't change or take that away. But I suppose if you take their cheating turbos and stiff suspension away they'd say, "We are pure econoboxes, We get 32.5 miles a gallon. We are great".
The RX series has been built from the ground up as a balanced midship-engined sports car - dating back to 1978.
The basic platform of a car does define it - for example the MazdaSpeed 6 is still a sedan upgraded to be more sporty and aggressive. BUT it still is a sedan.
Last edited by RX8_GT; 03-04-2006 at 09:54 PM. Reason: Grammer
03-04-2006, 10:26 PM
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Just skip Ike's respone, you'll be better off.
But Ike's no brainer (which is typical Ike) that RX8 sales have fallen below Mazda’s publicly stated sales projections are correct. But manufacturers have always overstated projections, it means little. Tie in changing economic factors, volatile consumer preferences, natural product life cycles, etc., and it all becomes quite understandable.
But to suggest that the RX8 is a failure because of declining sales is only a reflection of ones naivety. Anyone with experience in corporate strategy and business planning, or common sense, would understand that a flagship car has far greater objectives than pure sales. A NSX, a Viper, a Maybach, etc. is a brand statement, a reflection of the best attributes of a given company. The RX8 is no different.
The RX8, while some non-8 owning trolls here love putting it down, is an international success among automotive journalists. I know of 6 comparison tests by respected sources, and it won all but one. When it was released it won engine of the year, car of the year, and produced no shortage of positive print. And it continues to win acknowledgements (still a Car & Driver top 10). This is what flagship cars are supposed to do.
There is no question that there is a clear correlation between the success of the volume leading Mazda’s 3’s to the RX8, and there is no coincidence that the new CX7 is heavily leveraging RX8 styling queues. It sells Mazda, it is the proof point of the brand.
…duh!
But Ike's no brainer (which is typical Ike) that RX8 sales have fallen below Mazda’s publicly stated sales projections are correct. But manufacturers have always overstated projections, it means little. Tie in changing economic factors, volatile consumer preferences, natural product life cycles, etc., and it all becomes quite understandable.
But to suggest that the RX8 is a failure because of declining sales is only a reflection of ones naivety. Anyone with experience in corporate strategy and business planning, or common sense, would understand that a flagship car has far greater objectives than pure sales. A NSX, a Viper, a Maybach, etc. is a brand statement, a reflection of the best attributes of a given company. The RX8 is no different.
The RX8, while some non-8 owning trolls here love putting it down, is an international success among automotive journalists. I know of 6 comparison tests by respected sources, and it won all but one. When it was released it won engine of the year, car of the year, and produced no shortage of positive print. And it continues to win acknowledgements (still a Car & Driver top 10). This is what flagship cars are supposed to do.
There is no question that there is a clear correlation between the success of the volume leading Mazda’s 3’s to the RX8, and there is no coincidence that the new CX7 is heavily leveraging RX8 styling queues. It sells Mazda, it is the proof point of the brand.
…duh!
03-04-2006, 10:45 PM
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9291150:
Very well put. Mazda does seem to have some unique cars in the pipeline. Saw the Kabura at the Detroit show - there was quite a crowd around it most of the time - and not only when it was being promoted. It seemed very pre-production - rather than just a concept. Cars like it are the backbone of a company like Mazda.
I'm from Nova Scotia orginally - when I left the place it was covered in Hondas - both Accords and Civics - in the past year I have seen a real change in the landscape - with 3s and 6s now in high profile. Sure it's happening in other markets.
The RX-8 is a great flagship - in part due to its unique nature (4 door'coupe' with rotary engine) but also due to it relative affordability. Many flagships are beyond the reach of the masses --- the RX-8 is in basic form is little more than a higher end sedan.
Very well put. Mazda does seem to have some unique cars in the pipeline. Saw the Kabura at the Detroit show - there was quite a crowd around it most of the time - and not only when it was being promoted. It seemed very pre-production - rather than just a concept. Cars like it are the backbone of a company like Mazda.
I'm from Nova Scotia orginally - when I left the place it was covered in Hondas - both Accords and Civics - in the past year I have seen a real change in the landscape - with 3s and 6s now in high profile. Sure it's happening in other markets.
The RX-8 is a great flagship - in part due to its unique nature (4 door'coupe' with rotary engine) but also due to it relative affordability. Many flagships are beyond the reach of the masses --- the RX-8 is in basic form is little more than a higher end sedan.
03-04-2006, 10:53 PM
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One final point before sack time - the RX-8 platform seems to have been a good investment for Mazda - built from the ground up - it now supports both the RX-8 and the new Miata MX-5. The platform will likely support other cars - including any Kabura based car - and the next RX-7 whenever Mazda goes for the 4th Gen.
There are not many built-from-the-ground-up sports cars under $30,000 these days. Lots of upgraded sporty cars based on econobox or sedan platforms but not their own platforms.
There are not many built-from-the-ground-up sports cars under $30,000 these days. Lots of upgraded sporty cars based on econobox or sedan platforms but not their own platforms.
03-04-2006, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RX8_GT
Awaiting Ike's response - no doubt it will question my parentage or my IQ - rather than actually add to the questions at hand.
03-04-2006, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RX8_GT
World sales is what matters to Mazda - not just US sales IMHO. The R&D costs have been spent at this point IF a redesigned RX-8 was ever in the works ( I hope so).
Mazda has been marketing rotary engined sports cars since 1978 continuously - but was out of the US market from 1996 to 2003. I cannot see them cutting again - but if so - it will our loss in the US .... although my RX-8 will look better as an investment.
Mazda has been marketing rotary engined sports cars since 1978 continuously - but was out of the US market from 1996 to 2003. I cannot see them cutting again - but if so - it will our loss in the US .... although my RX-8 will look better as an investment.
The R&D costs have been spent for this current RX-8, but there would still be R&D and retooling costs for a second gen. RX-8. The biggest costs are already out of the way though. I'm also sure Mazda could use the production line that the RX-8 uses to make cars that they are having a hard time keeping up with demand for, or some of the future models that are in the pipeline.
Why can't you see them cutting the rotary again, now seems as likely a time as ever with the current economic climate and gas prices. For those of you that don't think mileage is a factor in the sales of the RX-8 I question your sanity. No, people don't buy sportscar for their excellent mileage, but the RX-8 is thirstier than cars that outperofrm it in a straight line, this is something the American consumer will look at if they're going to put up with the high cost of gas.
Your RX-8 will never be a good investment, but I think you already know that... I'm also with you in hoping there is a second gen. RX-8, I'd also love to see an FI version of the RX-8. But with each passing month of abysmal sales I have to wonder how much longer Ford and Mazda are going to stick with the RX-8.
03-04-2006, 11:18 PM
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RX8 GT, you hit the nail on the head in terms of why the 8 has been a success, it is its own platform, meaning no compromises. I can't think of another everyday car that shares so little with other models.
Any car, especially the sporting types that share a platform like the EVO, STI, 350Z, etc. all are compromised. It is easily evident where each are compromised, be it in increased weight, weight distribution, suspension type and mounting points, center of gravity, etc. etc. etc.
They can make a quick car out of everthing, look at a 500HP SRT10 pick up truck! BUT, a true enthusiast can see and feel the differences. The STI and Evo types don't think of their cars as Lancers and Imprezas, but that is really what they are.
This is a reason why the RX8 is respected by automotive media, it is the real thing. If they based the Mazda flagship on a Protege, it would get little respect.
Any car, especially the sporting types that share a platform like the EVO, STI, 350Z, etc. all are compromised. It is easily evident where each are compromised, be it in increased weight, weight distribution, suspension type and mounting points, center of gravity, etc. etc. etc.
They can make a quick car out of everthing, look at a 500HP SRT10 pick up truck! BUT, a true enthusiast can see and feel the differences. The STI and Evo types don't think of their cars as Lancers and Imprezas, but that is really what they are.
This is a reason why the RX8 is respected by automotive media, it is the real thing. If they based the Mazda flagship on a Protege, it would get little respect.
03-04-2006, 11:28 PM
#269
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Originally Posted by 9291150
The RX8, while some non-8 owning trolls here love putting it down, is an international success among automotive journalists. I know of 6 comparison tests by respected sources, and it won all but one. When it was released it won engine of the year, car of the year, and produced no shortage of positive print. And it continues to win acknowledgments (still a Car & Driver top 10). This is what flagship cars are supposed to do.
A lot of this is indeterministic and subjective. The 8 has sold x number of units worldwide -- how big does x need to be to make it worth it? How many 3's have been sold because of the 8? How many 3's need to be sold because of the 8 to make it worth it? These questions are impossible to answer unless you're Mazda. Even then it's all educated guesswork. I don't know why we go on and on and on and on about it.
Personally, the 8 is more about the rotary than anything else. Mazda really believes in it. Also, I don't really see how the 8 is helping to sell 3's when no one besides C&D readers and automotive people know about the 8. It is, whether intended to be or not, a niche car, that is not known or appreciated by the mainstream (at least in America).
And wow. Someone actually said that having a turbo was cheating. I am speechless.
03-04-2006, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 9291150
RX8 GT, you hit the nail on the head in terms of why the 8 has been a success, it is its own platform, meaning no compromises. I can't think of another everyday car that shares so little with other models.
Any car, especially the sporting types that share a platform like the EVO, STI, 350Z, etc. all are compromised. It is easily evident where each are compromised, be it in increased weight, weight distribution, suspension type and mounting points, center of gravity, etc. etc. etc.
They can make a quick car out of everthing, look at a 500HP SRT10 pick up truck! BUT, a true enthusiast can see and feel the differences. The STI and Evo types don't think of their cars as Lancers and Imprezas, but that is really what they are.
This is a reason why the RX8 is respected by automotive media, it is the real thing. If they based the Mazda flagship on a Protege, it would get little respect.
Any car, especially the sporting types that share a platform like the EVO, STI, 350Z, etc. all are compromised. It is easily evident where each are compromised, be it in increased weight, weight distribution, suspension type and mounting points, center of gravity, etc. etc. etc.
They can make a quick car out of everthing, look at a 500HP SRT10 pick up truck! BUT, a true enthusiast can see and feel the differences. The STI and Evo types don't think of their cars as Lancers and Imprezas, but that is really what they are.
This is a reason why the RX8 is respected by automotive media, it is the real thing. If they based the Mazda flagship on a Protege, it would get little respect.
03-04-2006, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by saturn
I know the 8 has won tons o' awards, but that can't be what it's "supposed to do". If you win all the awards in the world, but it doesn't sell or help you sell other cars how is it a good thing?
A lot of this is indeterministic and subjective. The 8 has sold x number of units worldwide -- how big does x need to be to make it worth it? How many 3's have been sold because of the 8? How many 3's need to be sold because of the 8 to make it worth it? These questions are impossible to answer unless you're Mazda. Even then it's all educated guesswork. I don't know why we go on and on and on and on about it.
Personally, the 8 is more about the rotary than anything else. Mazda really believes in it. Also, I don't really see how the 8 is helping to sell 3's when no one besides C&D readers and automotive people know about the 8. It is, whether intended to be or not, a niche car, that is not known or appreciated by the mainstream (at least in America).
And wow. Someone actually said that having a turbo was cheating. I am speechless.
A lot of this is indeterministic and subjective. The 8 has sold x number of units worldwide -- how big does x need to be to make it worth it? How many 3's have been sold because of the 8? How many 3's need to be sold because of the 8 to make it worth it? These questions are impossible to answer unless you're Mazda. Even then it's all educated guesswork. I don't know why we go on and on and on and on about it.
Personally, the 8 is more about the rotary than anything else. Mazda really believes in it. Also, I don't really see how the 8 is helping to sell 3's when no one besides C&D readers and automotive people know about the 8. It is, whether intended to be or not, a niche car, that is not known or appreciated by the mainstream (at least in America).
And wow. Someone actually said that having a turbo was cheating. I am speechless.
Sadly, he's not the first one to make the turbo comments. My other favorite is when people say, "put a turbo in the RX-8 and then it'll be fair". Or, you can't compare an N/A car with a turbo car. Better yet, is the, "just wait til I out a turbo in my RX-8, those other turbo cars won't know what hit em". It's all ricer math.
03-04-2006, 11:38 PM
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US RX-8 Sales
Sales not great because:
1. They haven't done anything to the car in three years! No powertrain enhancment, no refresh, no sport+ pacakge, nothing... The 350z on the otherhand, has had a styling refresh, interior upgrade, powertrain upgrade and better sales with a more limited 2 seat package
2. People still don't know what to maek of RX-8 -- lefitimate sports car, sporty coupe, what is it?
3. Poor marketing -- Mazda never positioned the car as a real sports car and focused on the rotary instead. Americans couldn't car less about whether or not the car has a rotary -- what kind of car is it, how much hp does it have and how fast does it go?
4. Low awareness -- I live in NJ now -- can't tell you how many people still come up and complement me on my car and have no idea what it is or that Mazda makes any sports car other then Miata. When I open the suicide doors in public, they continue to draw big crowds...
5. Fuel econ is a non-issue. Who buys a car like this for fuel econ?
6. Lack of power is the issue. Yes, RX-8 is a better all around car than 350z no doubt. But it's hard to argue with 300hp for the same price as our 232hp
7. Credibility. Mazda has lost a lot of credibility over the years by mis-representing hp figures. First with Miata, now with RX-8 which started at 250, dropped to 240, then 238, now 232. I can honestly say that if I knew the hp figure was really 232 back when I bought my car, I probably would have bought something else -- not entirely rational or intelligent, but probably true
8. And last, related to the above, how is it that for essentially the same monet we get 80hp less than 350z drivers. And tht's not counting the even bigger and more important torque disparity!
Very last, I have thoroughly enjoyed my RX-8 which is what really counts. Handling is a blast, as is downshifting to 3rd at 7000+ rpm. Plus, I love the looks and always look over my shoulder at the car as I walk away -- great styling, aggressive, good stance, sits low on the wheels, etc...
1. They haven't done anything to the car in three years! No powertrain enhancment, no refresh, no sport+ pacakge, nothing... The 350z on the otherhand, has had a styling refresh, interior upgrade, powertrain upgrade and better sales with a more limited 2 seat package
2. People still don't know what to maek of RX-8 -- lefitimate sports car, sporty coupe, what is it?
3. Poor marketing -- Mazda never positioned the car as a real sports car and focused on the rotary instead. Americans couldn't car less about whether or not the car has a rotary -- what kind of car is it, how much hp does it have and how fast does it go?
4. Low awareness -- I live in NJ now -- can't tell you how many people still come up and complement me on my car and have no idea what it is or that Mazda makes any sports car other then Miata. When I open the suicide doors in public, they continue to draw big crowds...
5. Fuel econ is a non-issue. Who buys a car like this for fuel econ?
6. Lack of power is the issue. Yes, RX-8 is a better all around car than 350z no doubt. But it's hard to argue with 300hp for the same price as our 232hp
7. Credibility. Mazda has lost a lot of credibility over the years by mis-representing hp figures. First with Miata, now with RX-8 which started at 250, dropped to 240, then 238, now 232. I can honestly say that if I knew the hp figure was really 232 back when I bought my car, I probably would have bought something else -- not entirely rational or intelligent, but probably true
8. And last, related to the above, how is it that for essentially the same monet we get 80hp less than 350z drivers. And tht's not counting the even bigger and more important torque disparity!
Very last, I have thoroughly enjoyed my RX-8 which is what really counts. Handling is a blast, as is downshifting to 3rd at 7000+ rpm. Plus, I love the looks and always look over my shoulder at the car as I walk away -- great styling, aggressive, good stance, sits low on the wheels, etc...
03-04-2006, 11:43 PM
#274
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Originally Posted by 9291150
RX8 GT, you hit the nail on the head in terms of why the 8 has been a success, it is its own platform, meaning no compromises. I can't think of another everyday car that shares so little with other models.
Any car, especially the sporting types that share a platform like the EVO, STI, 350Z, etc. all are compromised. It is easily evident where each are compromised, be it in increased weight, weight distribution, suspension type and mounting points, center of gravity, etc. etc. etc.
They can make a quick car out of everthing, look at a 500HP SRT10 pick up truck! BUT, a true enthusiast can see and feel the differences. The STI and Evo types don't think of their cars as Lancers and Imprezas, but that is really what they are.
This is a reason why the RX8 is respected by automotive media, it is the real thing. If they based the Mazda flagship on a Protege, it would get little respect.
Any car, especially the sporting types that share a platform like the EVO, STI, 350Z, etc. all are compromised. It is easily evident where each are compromised, be it in increased weight, weight distribution, suspension type and mounting points, center of gravity, etc. etc. etc.
They can make a quick car out of everthing, look at a 500HP SRT10 pick up truck! BUT, a true enthusiast can see and feel the differences. The STI and Evo types don't think of their cars as Lancers and Imprezas, but that is really what they are.
This is a reason why the RX8 is respected by automotive media, it is the real thing. If they based the Mazda flagship on a Protege, it would get little respect.
Anyone could say "it is easily evident where each are compromised" about every single car ever. The 8 for example guzzles gas and oil, floods, and requires a 8k clutch dump to even have a prayer to get it to 60 in under 6 seconds.
This is just like music "enthusiasts" who turn their nose up at anything once it hits the radio or MTV. Just because something is popular doesn't make it wrong.
My only condolence is knowing that not everyone here feels the need to knock down other cars to enjoy their 8.
