Originally Posted by Mitch Strickler

Rotarygod:

Thanks for your technical explanations about comparative efficience of the Renesis and conventional engines. I don't know enough to be sure that you are right, but it makes a lot of sense and I trust you on these technical matters. Near the end of your post, though, you run off the road (see below).

The whole point of all of this is that these comparisons are all a waste of time. Usually by those who have limited knowledge on the subject with nothing better to do but with something to prove. Comparisons of the rotary engine to piston engines is a worthless things to talk about when determining if this car will keep selling well. All of these threads on total vehicle sales are a waste of time as well. These are all based on a person's opinion that the car should be selling more because other cars out there that they personally feel it is competition with have different sales numbers. The problem is that none of these people has any knowledge of what the car's projected sales are, none of them has any clue as to the vehicles profitability at those sales levels, and none of these people can be construed in any was as an expert or even a reliable consultant on the topic. It is always pure speculation and is almost always wrong.

While I haven't done a lot of research on RX-8 sales, I've seen enough to say that your unsubstantiated assertions are not convincing. Maybe the people who wrote posts on this subject didn't demonstrate knowledge about the car's projected sales and whether actual sales are disappointing, but neither do you. (Yes, I know your next paragraph talked about Miata sales, but that doesn't add anything to these RX-8 questions. You know, logically.)

I have seen statements, early on, that Mazda's goal for US sales was 30,000 a year. Recent months have been running at a rate not much more than a third of that. And the deep discounts and slow disposal of end-of-year models is very consistent with disappointing sales. The current Road & Track, a source welll plugged into industry info -- and sympathetic to the 8 -- says the sales are disappointing.

Slow RX-8 sales in the US are just part of the bigger picture. The successful chassis is being adapted for the Miata, and will be used elsewhere -- Kabura, RX-7 if they ever get around to it, etc. The RX-8 (apart from engine) is built at a plant that turns out other models, including 3s. Sales in other parts of the world may meet goals (I have no idea whether this is so, but it's possible).

Bottom line: I sure hope Mazda continues the 8, and expect they will. I think the lack of money that follows from slow sales makes it harder to get Ford approval for R&D to improve the car, starting obviously with engine efficiency (new injectors, 3 plugs?). As for changing what is fine, especially the exterior styling, I don't much care because I keep cars for a long time, and will enjoy the looks of mine even more in comparison to a successor that looks like a Kabura.

Mitch Strickler

Originally Posted by Ike

Mazda is to blame for most of the sales problems, and while we can thank Mazda for keeping the rotary alive, I hope we're not blaming them for killing it once and for all a year or two from now. People love horsepower numbers, it's just not good business to start out with a car that had early horsepower rumors at 280hp, then 250hp, then 247hp with many people questioning that figure, then 238hp again still seemed a little generous, and now with the SAE ratings 232hp. You're going the wrong way Mazda!

Originally Posted by Roaddemon

.... Your a ricer too. You rate everything by 1/10ths of a mile.

Originally Posted by Roaddemon

That's all bull. Who you think your fooling? The rx8's not going anywhere. With your reasoning any car under 300hp is going to be killed. Most people don't even know or care about that. They just want an affordable fast little sportscar that seats 4. You must think everyone is a seasoned car guru like you. Most people go by consumer reports and what dealer ships are close to them. The 05' is getting great ratings in both consumer reports and all other car rating mags. Your a ricer too. You rate everything by 1/10ths of a mile.

Originally Posted by Krankor

Well, this is certainly an entertaining thread. It's like a fine day out at the Roman Colosseum. Anybody here keeping score? sti_eric's utter nonsense about not being able to pass an SUV is surpassed by Roaddemon's preposterous horseshit about "your" being acceptable for "you're". I don't present myself as any kind of authority on automobiles, but I do know a thing or two about language, and that's the most contrafactual thing I've ever read on this board. Not that eric wasn't being petty to harp on what (for most people, at least) is just a typo.

In the most surprising development, Roaddemon has now gone so over the top that he's actually got me rooting for Ike (no small accomplishment). Pure vitriol response to one of Ike's most thoughtful, accurate, least inflamatory, least objectionable posts. Glad I didn't bet money on this one. I can't wait for the playoffs.

Somebody pass the popcorn...

Originally Posted by Krankor

In the most surprising development, Roaddemon has now gone so over the top that he's actually got me rooting for Ike (no small accomplishment). Pure vitriol response to one of Ike's most thoughtful, accurate, least inflamatory, least objectionable posts. Glad I didn't bet money on this one. I can't wait for the playoffs.

Somebody pass the popcorn...

Originally Posted by Roaddemon

Don't you see, it's a trick. He's sliding his BS in a new Ike non inflammatory way. I guess he has you fooled. I'm a little too smart for his tactics.

Originally Posted by Ike

You're not too smart for my dog's tactics.

Originally Posted by Roaddemon

Now that's the real Ike talking. Troll

Originally Posted by Ike

Despite what you may think, calling me a name in every post does not make up for your inability to form a proper argument.

Originally Posted by Roaddemon

I disagree with the underlying fundamental mentallity and premise of all your arguements therefore I won't argue with you.

Originally Posted by Ike

So your whole goal is just to antagonize me then? Yeah, I'm the troll...

Originally Posted by Ike

I know the RX-8 wasn't a direct replacement for the RX-7, but comparisons were bound to be made and it's a tough thing to impress peopel with the performance of a car that can't keep up with its older brother that's 10 years older. For examples sake, if the performance of the 350Z wasn't up to par or better than the previous 300Z do you think it would be as big of a sales success as it is? I don't, and I also don't think Nissan would be foolish enough to not outperform the past models.

Mazda is to blame for most of the sales problems, and while we can thank Mazda for keeping the rotary alive, I hope we're not blaming them for killing it once and for all a year or two from now. People love horsepower numbers, it's just not good business to start out with a car that had early horsepower rumors at 280hp, then 250hp, then 247hp with many people questioning that figure, then 238hp again still seemed a little generous, and now with the SAE ratings 232hp. You're going the wrong way Mazda!

Originally Posted by sti_eric

You have no one to blame for the posts since then but him.

Originally Posted by sti_eric

Please list for me the advantages of the RX-8 chassis over the Impreza chassis and how those advantages relate to the end product.

Originally Posted by sti_eric

It's not only the pushed back in your seat feeling. It's the ability to easily get around that huge SUV clogging the left, while in any gear. In the STi, just stomp the accelerator and you're past, and the SUV driver can't do anything about it. In the RX-8, you have to downshift 2 gears, floor the accelerator, and hope that the guy in the SUV doesn't speed up, because you will have a tough time passing him if he does.

Originally Posted by sti_eric

I had the 8 out last weekend. Stopped at this one red light on a 55 mph road. A Hyundai SUV next to me (not sure if it was the Tucson or Santa Fe). No cars in front, couldn't see any headlights behind, either. Took off normally, shifted into second at around 5000 rpm. At this point, I see the Hyundai leap forward in a challenge. I figure, why not. The RX-8 is supposed to be a sports car, let's have some fun with it. At this point, the Hyundai is about half a car length ahead. Slammed the accelerator to the floor at around 3000 rpm and...nothing happens. Wait - still not going anywhere, wait some more - still not going anywhere - wait yet some more, oh now we're above 7000 rpm, and we start INCHING by the Hyundai. Granted, I'm more used to driving a 340whp STi, where going WOT means instant turbo spool and being slammed back into the seat. But, I was a little disappointed in the throttle response and how long it took the engine to get the revs up.

Originally Posted by Deslock

...............But on the other hand, if Mazda replaces it with another lightweight RWD 4-seater sports car (like the Kabura), then seeing the RX8 retired wont be quite as painful. Hell, if they stick the rotary in a Mazdaspeed Kabura, I doubt many of us would miss the 8 much at all.

Originally Posted by deslock

No one who has driven the excellent STI would dismiss it as "an econobox with a turbo" (and if they do, they're not giving the platform enough credit). But it's also true that the Impreza/Forester platform has some inherent disadvantages compared to a pure sports car platform. The RX8 chassis was designed for a 50:50 RWD car with a low yaw moment due to the mid-engine and midship fuel tank. It was designed to accommodate a dry-sump engine mounted much lower than normal. It was designed to have a central support tunnel for rigidity. Those are not attributes you put in a platform designed for both cars and small SUVs. Now, none of those things alone automatically mean you're going to have the ultimate performance car, but taken together they result in a car with excellent driving dynamics despite having a soft suspension. This translates to the end product in that the RX8 has a comfortable ride, is neutral and resistant to understeer, and is forgiving while not beating the driver up as much as a 350z, EVO, or STI do.

Originally Posted by deslock

I don't mean this as an insult, but I agree with the others: you didn't drive the RX8 the way it was meant to be driven, nevermind your unrealistic expectations going from a 340whp STI. In any event, this incident does not translate to real world driving at all (unless you like to race people) and i'll refer back to my previous comment: "If you don't like needing to shift on the highway, clearly the RX8 is a poor choice. But it's misleading to say that "the STi handily beats out the RX-8 in the driveability category"."

Originally Posted by sti_eric

My point is that people like roaddemon and RotoRocket who continually talk down about cars that aren't the RX-8 know absolutely nothing when it comes to the cars in question. But thanks for ruining it with your clear, concise post


No offense taken. Fact is, I'm a better driver than the vast majority of people on here since I have had lessons and practice. Unlike owners like roaddemon, I actually use my car for what it was made for. So, I go to the drag strip, auto-x, and HPDE events at Watkins Glen. The point of my story is that I forgot what car I was in. In the STi, stomping the accelerator = bye bye. In the RX-8, you have to be sure that the rpms are above 6000. Below 6000 it accelerates like my parents' Toyota Sienna minivan. At the track, no matter what car you drive, you have to be sure that you are in the correct gear all the time. It's nice on the street to not have to do that.

Originally Posted by Deslock

As far as the thread's topic goes, I suspect that none of us know if the RX8 is selling well enough to be profitable or if it's doing so poorly that Mazda will kill it off in the next couple years. I wont be surprised either way and for now we're all just speculating.

Why are RX8 sales below initial expectations? Bad timing for increased fuel prices? Not enough power/torque vs the competition? Who knows... maybe Mazda simply overestimated the appeal the RX8's combination of practicality and sports car dynamics would have. After all, most drivers looking for 4 doors don't care if it's FWD and most drivers looking for a sports car don't care about 4 doors (but may be turned off by the lack of low-end pull).

I like the car and I hope it continues being made. But on the other hand, if Mazda replaces it with another lightweight RWD 4-seater sports car (like the Kabura), then seeing the RX8 retired wont be quite as painful. Hell, if they stick the rotary in a Mazdaspeed Kabura, I doubt many of us would miss the 8 much at all.