Good grief...

I am not espousing that downshifting should be used as the primary way to slow your vehicle. Jeesss... Relax!

If this gets you going, don't feather your clutch on a hill, don't accelerate to hard, and for heaven's sake do not spin your tires because that causes enormous stresses on your clutch, drive shaft, transmission, suspension, and more.... Those 0-60 times that everyone is messing with cause a lot of wear and tear on your vehicle so lets not do that (besides not the car’s forte anyway).

For that matter, make sure to stay under 50 MPH. That way you will be able to achieve the maximum fuel while facing lower wind resistance and extend the longevity of your vehicle.

Please ensure that you avoid all traffic routes that have stoplights or stop signs as this will force you to use your clutch and potentially result in excess wear.

Do not forget to avoid turns as this will shift weight to one tire or another and might result in wear.

Maybe the best thing to do is to build a nitrogen containment tank and store your vehicle there for posterity.
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Or… you could remember the commercial (ZOOM ZOOM), and just drive.
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Wow. Way to bring back a thread from the dead. Kinda a silly thing to start arguing about again a year later, don't you think?

 

I downshift. The harder I drive, the deeper into the brake zone, the harder I downshift.

And visa-versa, to the point that I rarely, or ever so slightly, downshift with my babe on an evening cruise.

It's a very natural thing to do. I agree that everybody does it. Take your foot off the gas and you're doing it, unless you clutch every time you let-off the gas. I doubt that.

Go to a road race, or just watch one on tv. Going into the turns, they all do it - very hard. It's a rudimentary thing to have to know how to do if you want to race. Tell me I'm wrong, I'll tell you that you know nothing about entering a turn. It's just a rudimentary thing, very much so.

Oh yeah, I never wore-out a tranny or a clutch, and I keep my cars for a very long time, I'm not the kind that changes cars when they buy a new pair of shoes.

 

Absolutely.

And by the by.... Bondurant and Barber TEACH IT.

 

Ok, Ok... Engine braking puts extra wear on expensive parts instead of cheaper parts. If your main goal is to save money, then use the brakes -- that's what they're for. While you're at it, why not buy a set of nice hard rubber tires that will last 80,000 miles -- it's cheaper right?

To me, part of the sports car experience is engine braking. I think it's fun, so I do it about 2/3 of the time I guess. You're not going to break anything, just wear things out a LITTLE faster. And it really is just a LITTLE faster -- I've never had a clutch last less than 100,000 miles and I always drive "spiritedly" (is that a word?)

 

Most of us weren't HERE a year ago to express our opinions. Isn't this kind of discussion what the forum is FOR? It doesn't seem silly to me.

 

Downshifting does not equal engine braking. They aren't downshifting to slow the car down, they are downshifting to get the car into the optimum gear when power gets applied.

Also, that is a totally different situation than what this thread is talking about, downshifting for a red light on the street. The reason I revived this thread is to find out why you should downshift to slow the car down.

 

I have the Bondurant book and took the Barber class. They don't teach it. They teach putting the car in the proper gear to apply power through the corner.

E.g,. you can find a link to the time attack video somewhere on this forum, where a test driver took an RX8 for a lap around Laguna Seca. The first corner is after a long straight where he is going about 108 mph and has to take the corner at 43 mph. He downshifts from 4th to 3rd to 2nd. But he isn't downshifting to slow the car down, he is downshifting so that when he gets back on power, he is at 6000+ rpm in 2nd gear instead of being at 3000 rpm in 4th.

 

Guys-I guess since I am in mid-50 age I was used to decent but not great brakes. However downshifting gets me ready for roaring around next curve or corner or aiding in stopping. I probably will not change-in fact with the few automatics that I have owned I tended to manually downshift these as well and I never broke one nor had any problems. If it was so bad why do they make manumatics?

Thanks for vent.

Bob

 

HOLY BAT GUANA!!

Have you all forgotten why you own an RX-8???

Have fun!!!!!

Soooo to recap the recent entries above....
- Truck drivers downshift to slow their vehicles
- Race car drivers downshift... some say to slow them dowm (oh no... say it ain't so)... I guess their trannys are just trashed.
- I downshift… there I have come out of the driver’s seat
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And lastly GUSMAHLER... do think the driver you reference slowed at all when then downshifted? Let me help the answer is "yes". If he as any good at all, he used any means possible to slow the car and prepare for the next turn.

Well... gotta go, I feel the need to drive a winding road and based on living in a free country.. downshift any damn time I want.

 

You know nothing about entering a turn. There. I warned you. :p

Downshifting slows you down for a turn just like downshifting for a red light on the street. It applies decelerating torque to the drivetrain, to the drive wheels.

It also usually gets the car into the optimum gear for when power is to be applied out of the final apex, or if the light turns green before you come to a complete stop.

Usually though, if I know that the light is going to stop me completely, I knock it into neutral and apply the brakes, why bother. Is that what you wanted to know?

 

They aren't downshifting in order to slow the car down. They are braking to slow the car down. Does the downshifting slow the car down? Of course it does! But 90+% of the slowing down was caused by the braking. They slow the car down by braking. They downshift to prepare for the next corner.

We're just arguing semantics now. Have fun on the road!

 

Engine braking is very important when descending long steep mountain roads. Otherwise you are riding your brakes and are risking control of the vehicle due to brake fade or even complete loss of brakes. There is only so much energy you can put into the brake pads and rotors and that can easily be exceeded on a long steep road.

 

This is an interesting thread...

I'd like to make a clear distinction between engine braking and downshifting (or transmission braking, or to be most accurate, "clutch braking")..

To clarify:

Engine braking- Reducing the speed of the car by using the opposing forces generated by the weight and friction of the engine and transmission against the general the inertia of the drive train, (beginning with the moving parts of the engine--ie pistons or rotors, crankshafts, etc-- to the driveshafts, and through the transmission gears). Engine braking occurs while the car is in gear, not during the downshift. So as an example, you're driving down a very long slope or hill and decide against "riding" the brakes. . So, instead, you downshift correctly (rev the RPMs to match the engine to prevent unnecessary wear on the clutch), and then let the car roll in the lower gear, letting the "weight" of the moving engine parts naturally keep the car from increasing in acceleration. This is the ideal situation that the AUDI drivers manual suggests when to use engine braking.

Clutch braking- Very different from engine braking... It's slowing down the car by way of downshifting and letting clutch slow the car down. So, instead of using the brakes, the driver downshifts and engages the clutch without matching the RPMs. The clutch bears the load to slow the car. The end result is not only deceleration, but clutch wear and noise. Afterwards, once the car is completely in gear, engine braking may or may not occur, depending on whether or not the drive continues to let the car "roll" while in gear.

Novice drivers confuse this "clutch braking" with "engine braking". The inexperienced drive frequently clutch brakes accidently when downshifting because they aren't used to revving the engine before going into gear or don't rev it enough, or have poor timing. This can be even more tricky for them approaching a turn, when the car is decelerating at the same time.

Speaking of shifting at turns, seems people handle this differently also.

For everyday driving, I tend to drop the shifter into neutral as I approach a turn, then still before the turn I put the shifter into a lower gear with the clutch still disengaged (down). As I turn, the car begins to deccelerate, at which I give it some juice and engage the clutch slowly out of the turn. I think most experienced people drive like this on an everyday basis.

But then there's the more controlled and less used method, where the clutch is already engaged in a lower gear before the turn.. Being already in gear gives the driver more control over the car as they aren't hassling with the clutch during the turn. I rarely use this method because I'm it requires more work. They simply concentrate on their steering and accelerate easily out of the turn. But this means you have to downshift while deccelerating, and to do it smoothly (without engine braking) it takes more effort as well as more experience with the car. It also uses more gas, since you're revving after AND before each turn. In racing situations, this is done VERY fast, ala "heel-to-toe"..

So which method do you use?

Or if you have a different method, I'd like to know.

 

Yes . . . because he was depressing the brake pedal really hard, and wanted to be in the right gear to make power when he came out of the corner. Downshifting WHILE braking to ensure you are in the proper gear is correct. Downshifting to slow down WITHOUT braking is incorrect, and causes UNNECESSARY wear and tear on your powertrain.

Yes, wear and tear happens, especially when you drive fast and enjoy the car. However, what sense does it make to abuse the car? You're saying, "Hey, pushing the car to its limits will strain it anyway--so why not just beat the crap out of it?" The answer is "Because you dropped a lot of money on a wonderful car, and you should take the best possible care of it, even if you enjoy it to the fullest."

Peace
policy

P.S. "ENGINE BREAKING" = BREAKING THE ENGINE
"ENGINE BRAKING" = DOWNSHIFTING WITHOUT USING THE BRAKES

 

Squidward - some good stuff there...

I "engine brake", although I do like the inertial feel of a "clutch brake", and do so every once in a while. Maybe a blend? Bringing the engine up, but not to the matching rpms? Say, up to 4000, clutch brake to 6000?

I always (I think?) get her into gear before the turn. Engaging in the middle of a turn can be upsetting.

True, hard racing requires hard braking - using the brakes. However, saying that downshifting doesn't slow the car down, the brakes do it - is neglecting that engine/clutch braking does indeed assist in slowing the car down, it helps reduce heat build-up and wear of the brakes - a little. It helps keep from locking it up - a little. Sure, watch how fast a racecar goes without brakes - it doesn't cuz it can't slow down well enough for the turns by just downshifting. But downshifting will help keep a racecar from loosing its brakes, and will help decelerate better by assisting - a little.

In everyday driving, it's alright to engine brake, it's alright not to. Who cares? Clutch braking is definetly more detrimental, so its use should be restricted for long life of a lot of drivetrain stuff.

 

First off I'll say that I am definitely in the camp supporting use of the disk brakes for reducing speed, and that "clutch braking" definitely CAN cause premature wear of the clutch. This argument has gone all over the place to the point that people aren't even arguing about the same thing anymore. Squidward hit the nail on the head in describing "engine braking" versus "clutch braking". Those of you who claim that "clutch braking" isn't any worse than using the disk brakes--your argument seems to make the assumption that most people can match engine speed before and after a downshift. Maybe some of you are great at doing this, but I'd guess that 95% of drivers can't do this perfectly. The result is that the clutch IS being worn at a faster rate than a driver who doesn't "clutch brake". The conclusion I'd draw from this is that you shouldn't "clutch brake" unless you are very capable of matching engine speed before and after a downshift.

Somebody was questioning how an automatic transmission handles these situations. The answer is that this argument doesn't apply to an automatic transmission, because all downshifts occur with the torque converter clutch unlocked. This means that there is only a fluid coupling between the transmission and engine, thus no friction material to wear down. Automatic transmissions have set downshift speeds at any given throttle position. Therefore, downshifts do occur as the vehicle slows down, but the high damping in the torque converter hydraulic fluid absorbs most of the energy so in many cases the downshifts can't even be felt by the driver. Also, automatic transmissions never shift to neutral unless the driver moves the shift lever. First gear is always engaged when the vehicle is stopped and in drive--that's why the vehicle rolls when you let off the brake pedal.

 

Spoken like a true ricer. Keep doing what you're doing . I wonder why this dude got banned ?

 

I have the AT and put it in manual mode mostly for the ability to downshift and use engine breaking that i miss most from driving a stick. At a complete stop or almost stop I put it back in AUto mode to allow the automatic to shift up. I feel a lot more in control downshifting to slow then using the brakes alone. The auto transmission seeems to have a control in it to not allow downshifting when engine is too reved up, and the cool paddles on the steering wheel sure make it seem like it was designed for this.

 

This is common practice when driving a truck whether it be a tractor/trailer (semi) or a farmer's grain truck. Large trucks do the 'engine braking' because of the large heavy load they are trying to stop, plus they are using industrial strength engines to do it with that can take the abuse. The 8 uses a high rev, sport engine in the form of the Renesis rotary. The Renesis is not an industrial strength engine. My vote is to place the wear and potential tear on the brake rotors and not the engine rotors.

 

It takes more work to rev-match and downshift than to just press the brake.

If you're going down a long steep hill, you should downshift. Otherwise either method is OK and it comes down to personal preference; I almost always rev-match and downshift. It helps me learn the RPM-vehicle-speed ranges in the car and, more importantly, is fun.

 

Learn to heel and toe. Lotsa fun and probably the best way to slow a car.