Redguy21

Hi All,

My RX8 has been at the dealership for 7 weeks now and I am still back where i started...with a compression-less engine. I posted a few months ago when this first happened and everyone was a lot of help so here I am again. The saga begins with my original posts...

9/28
First time post here but i Have a 2004 Auto (I know thats my first problem haha) with 57k and i was driving on the highway with my girlfriend in the car going around 75mph when suddenly my engine lost all compression. Luckily i was able to get over to the shoulder and no one was hurt. Had to get car towed to my mechanic then later to mazda for further review... It was diagnosed as complete engine failure blah blah apex seals worn out and what not. They said because i have a cold air intake (K&N Typhoon) and an after market cat (Which they also did not cover under the FEDERAL warranty for some BS excuse so i had to buy an after market one). This does not seem justified to me....how can the air filter and cat affect the life of my engine? I thought it would be better for it if anything, this just seems like Mazda jumping through hoops, should i file a class action law suit? anyone have experience with this matter?

Thanks for the replies so far! the dealership is Earnhardt Mazda/Ford in Chandler,AZ. I talked to the service manager and i brought in receipts for all oil changes and relevant maintenance work to him. He is going to try his best to get Mazda to cover the repairs and give me a new engine. I thought they were gonna recall all RX8's because the computer that regulates how much oil the engine takes in was faulty. This seems like the cause of all this and NOT the intake and cat. Anyways thanks again I will keep everyone posted.

10/5
Ok i heard back from Mazda today and they are going to replace my engine as long as I buy a new OEM cat from the dealership which is over $1000. My current cat is a high flow after market thing that was a lot lot less than a new one from the dealer so I bought it. Now I am stuck having to buy one from the dealer anyway. Mazda said they will only replace my engine if I do this. It seems incredibly strange but i guess its worth it if I am getting a re-manufactured engine. They think the after market cat causes sporadic back pressure which is bad for the engine (which I'm sure has some validity) so those were the conditions for the replacement to take place.

At this point everything was going somewhat smoothly they said about 2-3 weeks to finish the repairs. So about 3 weeks goes by and my engine had arrived and they said i could pick it up the next. Well the next day i get a call from the service drone and he says when they took it for the test drive the coolant flooded the oil and they were having to order a new engine... holy **** so now it's getting very aggravating and i flip out and get a pretty sweet rental car out of it haha. So 3 more weeks go by, this is about 2 days ago, and i get a message that my engine is in and will be ready the next day (sound familiar) he said the only problem was that my coolant light was on and they might have to replace it. So the next day comes and I call about 10 times and I cant get a hold of the guy so I call the manager and leave him a message, still nothing back... Eventually he calls me around 430pm and woops low compression another bad engine, I was speechless how could Mazda be so incompetent, do they not test these things before they send them or is it impossible for them to manufacture a working engine and they send any hunk of metal they can find. Unbelievable... but theres more...

So right after the service drone tells me the bad news he continues to ask me if i could pay them the money for the other work they did (for the OEM cat, 2 new tires and motor mounts. about $2000) so they could close out this order and start a new one..WHAT!!! I said absolutely not you will get paid when all the work is 100% done and i thought it was very strange and offensive. Anyways the idiot then corrects me and says the total is actually a little more money because they had to replace the coolant light and thats not covered under the power train warranty, HAHAH so i said absolutely not because first off the light wasn't on when I gave them my car and when the first engine died the coolant flooded the oil so maybe that had something to do with it and they didn't even ask me if I wanted them to fix it. This was absurd and i couldn't believe they would pull this **** after all I had been through already. Then the plot thickens when today i call down there for the manager and the receptionist slips something about them not being a Mazda dealership anymore (Was MAZDA/FORD so i guess it will just be FORD). WHAAAT!! so eventually talk to the manager and he says starting next week they wont be MAZDA anymore but they are still going to finish the car. Obviously they never planned on telling me that they weren't going to be Mazda anymore or at least until i paid them the money for the other work then kick me somewhere else...that explains why he asked me for payment so oddly. I want them to just get it done with this 4th engine but they have been so shady i want to take it somewhere else but we will see what happens. What does everyone think i should do? I want Mazda to comp all the money I owe that dealership for having to wait so long and not to mention i had to replace the cat because they said it caused my original to die (haha bullshit! 2 have died with their cat and not in my hands). Also i would like a 3 year warranty or something since these are obviously proven to be unreliable and I have pretty good reason. Should i try and contact someone high up in Mazda or what? I am sure a lot of you have had experience with this just looking for some guidance, Thanks for your time

Old Rotor

Call Mazda's 800# and give them your story.

Kencan

What year model is your RX-8 ?

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

Redguy21,

I had two motor replaced over the summer. The dealership had my car for 8.5 weeks between two visits. The first reman died at 1400 miles. Around 600 or 800 miles after the install the coolant light came on. They said it was the water pump which is installed at the factory. After the new pump was installed the car ran fine for a few hundred miles but then it started to run hot. The coolant light came back on and major hot start issues. In addition the rear rotor had low compression.

After the second reman was installed the dealership told me the rebuild plant outsourced Renesis builds to another company. And many of these motors were failing. Many of them failed with coolant problems as well. It is my understanding they are no longer outsourcing with this company. Due to the failures the need for more remans created a backlog on orders.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Mazda used to outsource remans (for all rotaries) to a third party. As of about 1.5 years ago they stoped that, built their own facility directly under mazda control and supervision, trained the employees themselves, and do all their own remans now. So unless they are still distributing old stock 1.5-2 years later, I doubt this excuse is relevant.

Here is a quote with a little info about remans that I posted in another thread.

The 04-08 engines are all identical in terms of build and components used. IT is a myth that 04-05 models have a crappy engine while 06 and later models have a better one less prone to failure. They all use identical hardware. The reason you hear less about 06+ models failing is threefold: 1) those models are newer and have less mileage than the earlier models, and 2) the PCM flash programming originally equipped in those models may have been better for the engine than the flashes equipped on the 04-05...and not everyone got their PCM reflashed on the earlier models to compensate. Then 3) there were many more 04-05 models produced than 06+, so you hear more about those models failing than the later ones, even though the actual percentage may be similar.

Regarding mileage on the rebuilt engine you are being give. Zero miles on the rebuilt engine assembly as you are getting it.

Unknown miles on the major components inside that engine assembly. The rotary is modular and can be built with parts of many other engine blocks if need be. This is what mazda does...they intake a large group of failed cores, tear them down, do a quick inspection of the components, keep the ones that look reuseable and toss the ones that aren't. They don't track which parts were from the same original engine and pair them back together later. They toss these parts into a bin and grab those parts later in the assembly process as needed. They do this to save money versus building engines from all new parts.

Thus your rebuilt engine could have parts of unknown mileage from one or more used engines. Technically a rotary can be built with major components from at least 10 different engines, if all used parts were used (often they are). It's to my understanding at at least they always replace all the seals/springs in the engine.

I'm currently rebuilding an 86-88 rx7 block. It was a recent mazda reman bought about 5-6 years ago. The coolant seals started to fail on it and the owner traded it to me for some powdercoating work plus cash, after he obtained a used replacement.

I'm cleaning and inspecting the parts. Mazda used one SHITTY rotor that has some seal slot damage and is WAY out of clearance. IT also has some minor scratches and damage on the faces. This rotor came from an engine that had previously broken at least one apex seal but had less than normal damage. Still nothing I would have ever used in an engine.

The other rotor is better but it also has some scratches and damage on the faces from broken apex seal fragments. I don't really have a problem with this one because the damage doesn't affect the seal slots or working areas of the rotor.

Both rotors have JUNK bearings in them, and also both main bearings were JUNK. The e-shaft was also out of spec. Now, perhaps this wear occurred between mazda building it and me disassembling it, but if I had to bet, I'd say that it was built that way.

I've taken apart probably 40+ mazda reman blocks over the years. Some are in great shape and others make you scratch your head as to what they were thinking. The worst one came from a stock FD a few years back. IT blew the front rotor apex seals which was unusual, usually you blow the rear rotor seals. Also the car was pretty much bone stock so we couldn't understand why such a low mileage engine would blow to begin with.

I took it apart and found out exactly why. The stock rotors for that engine are 9.0:1 compression ratio. Mazda had used an 89-91 non turbo 9.7:1 CR rotor in the front and an 89-95 9.0:1 CR rotor in the back.

You also can easily spot a mazda reman because it has tons of gray sealant on the oilpan and oozing out from the "legs" of the rotor housings and irons. Often they put so much of this crap on that it clogs up the oil pickup tube in the oilpan and causes engine failure. They also like to dab a lot of sealant on the front e-shaft stack, a place where there is ZERO need for sealant to be.

Mazda remans are further identified by red paint on the bolt heads on the front and back of the block and across the flywheel nut. And a metal blue tag on the front cover of the engine. Also if you see the front cover and rotor housings looking abnormally silver and shiny and not dull bare aluminum, but then you look closer and see that it's just paint and it's beginning to flake off in areas, well that's definitely a mazda reman. They also paint the irons with this dull gray/brownish paint so they also look brighter than the bare metal irons that were stock.

Also if the rotor housings are painted then you know they were reused originals. IF they put new housings in the reman they don't seem to paint those.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

Yes I know. I mentioned something along this line to the dealership and they said the new plant outsourced the builds. There seems to be some evidence to support what they told me though. Of course I'm only relaying what I was told.

Hi Flying 8

iTrader: (2)

I once found a chunk of a 10mm socket in the oil chamber of a rotor on an engine I purchased from Mazda for my RX-4. You could see the 10 perfectly still when I disassembled the engine-crazy.

fyrstormer

Sucks about all the trouble you've gone through to get a working engine again. If this isn't a good argument in favor of pre-mixing for older RX-8's, I don't think a good argument exists. Keep the engine you have if you possibly can.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

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QFT

IF you could get a brand new car with the original block assembled from all new parts by the people in japan who know more about what they are doing, and maintain it perfectly from day one, you'd be good to go for 150-200k or more.

04auto

I have an 04 auto, 71,400 mi, K&N intake, new coils and am having loss of power & what you probably call the MIAC sound when run hard/under load, esply in high ambient temps &/or uphill. Reset NVRAM, cleaned MAF and still the same. Mechanic suspects CAT, no code. Only fe-flash was MSP 04 and guess I need the MSP 16 routine. Plan to re-install stock intake prior to dealer visit. Their bad reputation is widespread. How best to deal with these clowns and what else should I do?

ken-x8

Find a dealer with a good reputation. If you give your location somebody here should be able to recommend one.

If you want MSP16 done (you really should), print out a copy bring it with you to the dealer. The instructions in the bulletin spell out that they need to do it even if your warranty is up.

Did you ever have 4206f done? If not, they're required to do it. Print out the info on that, too.

Ken

yulandop

I've been to two dealers here in texas, one tried to rip me off by over charging me for something i didnt need, and the other did the same, and actually stole something out of my car!

BuBuBDunk

Dealerships suck. My power steering kept turning off and my heat didnt work so they kept it for over a month to replace the mount. Got it back and it happened again. Also when they brought it back there was condensation in both tail lights and it was filthy. I bring it back and it was just a loose battery wire or something along the lines of that. I get it back and they only replaced one tail light and the heat still doesnt work. Im fed up. Monday I am getting it all fixed and thats that.

04auto

I live in Sonoma County, CA and there are only 2 dealers that I know of. The nearest is an ex- Caddy/Pontiac/Mazda dealer that sells about everything under the sun Japanese and Domestic via a web of dealerships here. The next closest is a Subaru/Mazda dealer that was MARKING UP RX8 prices back in '03. Don't know anything about their reputation for service/sales other than that. Last time I was at the closest dealer they found bad coils & did the diagnoses free - probably because I complained about being screwed in the past for a coolant leak! My mechanic did the coils/wire set - plugs had been done a few thousand miles before. I had the 4206F done when Mazda's notice came and it checked out. I've already printed out the MSP-16. I assume they should be doing this on Mazda's dime but is this correct?

Raptor75

RotaryResurrection, are you saying that Mazda is still building crap remans or were these remans before Mazda built their own factory?

ken-x8

Yes. As I recall, it says nothing about cars in or out of warranty, just do it to every 8 that comes in for service.

Ken

04auto

Ken and anyone with Loss of Power issues: Yestserday they do the MSP-16 and on 2 hard test drives I had slight improvement in high-end power - BUT it stalled once each test drive at stops. And there is a subtle deep bass (like a big timpani) coming from the midpipe. I hear the CAT snap, crackle, popping loud when parked after driving. But wait, there's more...

I take it back in today and asked explicitly that they do the LACK of ENGINE POWER test and what do they do? They call back to say bad coils, plugs and carboned throttle body after 6,000 miles on new/clean ones. But WHY these symptoms? They didn't do STEP 1 - the CAT test!!! And they want to charge $125 for the diagnositics. Maybe I should keep the red 2.3 "3" Hatchback they RENTED me! It's waay faster than my '04 8. What next???

bhop

, I just don't get why people are always having to get a "new engine". Is it the lack of care by owners or is it the fact that some of the stealerships screw people over? Hell, even my girlfriends FD has about 150,000mi on it with no issues whatsoever (then again I've always been **** about keeping my cars daily driven reliable). I've never had a problem with my 05 RX-8 and I purposely took the engine out (at 125,000mi still running the same since day 1) to swap for a 13b simply for a better FI setup...

Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, as I personally never known any Mazda for that matter to be so unreliable. I mean When you hear things like someones motor giving up before 10,000mi, like seriously, WTF is going on?

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

There is no way you have an FD with 150k on the original engine. Sorry but I gotta call BS. Most I've ever personally seen was 107. Most I've heard of was like 134. The engines are in rough condition after 85k original miles on those. Not to mention the turbos being all cracked and smoking/leaking oil.

With that said, some of it is no doubt owners that are ignorant of or just too lazy to undertake all the babying procedures that this engine needs. Make no mistake, they are fairly fragile if driven and maintained like the majority of people drive and maintain their vehicles. These are not vehicles for the average person or the average lifestyle. You really have to put above average money, time, and care into these if you want to get the most out of them....like apparently you have.

bhop

I was about to take a picture but the reading says 114,300 something. So I over exaggerated by a bunch but I get heated when I hear about all the engines people go through. Oh well, but I still never had any problems with them. I'll be willing to take a picture of the OD reading if she hits 150,000. My builder has about 120,000 on his with no major engines issues as of yet.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Even with "only" 114k on it, that thing is going to need a TON of attention and money when it finally does come apart. And make no mistake...your coolant seals are on borrowed time in that engine.

The turbos are going to be pretty much trashed and probably not rebuildable for anything except BNR stage X's (which don't reuse the hitachi internals).

You can also count on needing a set of rotor housings at that point. Not to mention ever rubber hose in the engine bay, complete cooling system (waterpump/tstat/radiator) and both fuel filters.

Mileage on FD's (and any rotary really) is something like dog years...every mile on an FD needs to be multiplied by about 1.75 to get a feel for how much real-world wear is on the engine/parts compared to other cars.

bhop

Well, like I said; no issues as of yet and her car does not get driven much during winter but my builder/tuner sees the 8/fd about twice a month when I'm in town. Although this may not make a huge difference in life span, it has worked so far. People used to always complain about their FD's failing before 60,000 miles but if we have twice the mileage then WTF? Lemons? I know what will be needed when the time comes and it won't be anything close to difficult... Nowadays, plenty of people who own a renesis don't even get to 100,000 (120,000 still running on mine but anything could have happened if I had kept it) although I think this seems to be due to bad ownership and slack *** dealerships.
Oh yeah, when the twins go on her car we are going single...