wakeech

ya Grimace, that same effect (creating vortecies which run along the underside of the car) is the same effect that F1 cars use to generate downforse on their very nearly flat underbodies (by diffusing the vortecies as they "roll" along: take a look at the saw teeth on the bottom of the Ferrari bargeboards, they generate a LOT of df at the price of considerable drag)
but the air can quite readily return to flowing in a laminar fashion, as soon as it looses enough momentum, but ya given the length of any road car, that's just not going to happen (time the air spends under it isn't long enough for that to happen)... it'd have to be something the size of a small train (with a smooth bottom, obviously... )

yes, Rich, precisely why i thought the low-drag setup of the ducktail, front and rear diffusers would be far better than a performance wing (on top of being kinda ugly for this 4 door...)

bwayout

I've been following these posts for a few days, and I'll admit that I'm not very up on my performance/aerodynamic physics … but I personally prefer the looks of a wing verse a spoiler. It’s also my opinion that wings or spoilers don’t belong on sedans (an exception to my own rule is the low profile wing on the new Altma - it just looks nice to me – yeah I know that it’s not very practical)!

OK, this is way out of my price range, but, I’ve fallen in love with the visual “look” and functionally integrated spoiler/wing of the future 2004 Porsche Carrera GT 2dr Coupe, which deploys at speeds above 74 mph. (http://www.edmunds.com/future/2004/p...e/preview.html)

But hey, I’ve always liked the “style” of the Camaro and the Acura NSX’s built in rear wing … and although I definitely appear to be in the minority, I’d vote for the RX-8 to have something similar and available as an optional package--- I think it would be a nice stylish touch as it wrapped around the rear window.

Than again, I also like the RSX and Celica’s low profile wing options and also their much higher rear wing specialty package options in the Acura RSX Type-S Factory Performance and Celica Action Package models.

wakeech

don't like wings on sedans, eh?? never seen WRC or any kind of high $$ touring?? they're all sedans (Lancer, Impreza, [Skoda] Octavia for the WRC cars... ANY touring series has sedans...), i think they look marvelous...

that wing (the difference is a wing is profiled like a bird's wing, upside down to force the car downwards, and a spoiler is like a panel which sticks up into the airflow, the biggest examples i've ever seen are on current spec NASCARs) on the Porsche is pretty nice, but they're just being a bit silly and flashy dashy with it deploying like that... the drag penalty on such a small and highly powered car is very little, 'cause that's not much wing in the first place... meaning, it's not going to give you anything in the way of acceleration (up to 74 mph, the difference would be in the hundreth's of a second, if that) and it's not saving you any gas, not that you'd care in the first place if you could buy that sucker.

well, the NSX design is nice, but i've never studied it to see how it would perform... as for the Camaro... if you can't say ANYTHING nice, don't say anything at all...

the factory stuff on those cars is borderline rice (have you SEEN the endplates on the Celica wing?? <<shudder>>), well, no that's a little strong...
but it's not what i'm talking about when i say "performance wing"... think of the wing on the R34 Nissan GT-R Skyline...
dig this page to see what i'm talking about:

http://www.exvitermini.com

cbr_xx

Personally, I like the look of a wing on the back of a car. I tmakes it look a bit more sporty. And if Mazda puts a wing on a Protege, I can't see them leaving it off the rx8.

zoom44

i still have yet to hear a valid arguement as to why anybody (i am not talking about the rx8 here i am talking about other cars) needs to add downforce to the rear of a front wheel drive car, i just dont get it,beyond the "well you never go fast enough to use it anyway arguemnet.

bwayout

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wakeech

the factory stuff on those cars is borderline rice (have you SEEN the endplates on the Celica wing??

Yeah, my wife agrees with you! Guess I'm going through my middle-life-crisis. Someday I think I want to keep the back clean and other days I want a black RX-8 with BIG rear bat-tail fins ... so I could be driving around in my version of the BATMOBILE (boy, talk about how unstable that would be ... either having BAT rear fins or my state of mind)

Sorry, I'm sometimes fall on the "design over function" side of things ... I just like how the spoiler/wing can be integrated smoothly into the rear panels...

Toadman

A tasteful wing with skirt kit, imho.

Rich

Were you showing the pic as an example of tasteful or not? That's way overboard for me, but I realize that I'm far to one side of the spectrum. Take away the wing and plastic tack-on stuff (why add weight?) and that's one of the most beautiful FDs I've seen. Normally I don't like blue on cars, but that looks really nice. Well, the wheels are a bit much also, but I'd certainly take one if offered!

Toadman

That is a 99 Japan-spec FACTORY rear wing, not an aftermarket. To each his own I suppose. I wouldn't turn it down and it's certainly not rice.

fuz

I find that very borderline. Personally I would have a hard time accepting that on my car, but I don't really mind it if anyone else has it, as the overall appearance isn’t very flamboyant. However I still think that wing is a bit absurd, not to mention the side mirrors.

wakeech

hold on now boys, that's an FD we're talking about here... i doubt anyone would be saying that a Lotus Esprit 350 is rice 'cause it had a wing... wings aren't inherently rice, that's not what i meant to say... i don't think i said that, i hope...

ya, that's the RZ spec... ohhhh baby, nice... that is functional, and it's a 7. i like.

er, now that i'm back to my more articulate self, T-Man, whatcha got on the front and back?? looks like a vented hood, some kinda trick air dam (that wouldn't be the A-Spec one would it??? ) and a diffuser?? but those mirrors are definitely aftermarket.... got any other nice pics of your FD??

**edit:
oh, and btw Zoom44: i said this earlier, but ANY race car, no matter their system of locomotion (FWD, RWD, AWD) needs grip to go quick... with a BALANCED aerodynamic package (which may or may not include a wing somewhere on the car... often determined by series regs.) optimized for a particular car, there is no reason why a FWD car wouldn't want d/f on the rear wheels as much at a RWD car wouldn't want d/f on the front wheels...

Rich

I never said it was "rice", and even if it's stock it's still way overboard to me.

Wakeech, I'd agree that any race car needs balanced aerodynamics, but for a road car, even if it's a high performance road car, I think wings are functionally useless. They simply add weight and style (good or bad depending on opinion), and do nothing positive for road or autocross performance. High speed track performance is a different thing...

Add lightness! (To quote Colin Chapman)

wakeech

true true, no one said "rice"... i do not intend on putting words in anyone's mouth. apologies.

Toadman

Agreed for street use, but you can't say it is aesthetically THAT ugly. can you? :D

Quick_lude

Guys, don't tell me that everything you own or buy is looked at only from the functionality angle? If so that would be one boring existence. Of course the big F&F style aluminum wings on fwd cars are useless and look like *** imo, unless the whole car is done up with a body kit, wheels, etc. But I also do think that certain cars like mine for example look good with a tasteful body kit/wing combo.. So who cares if it's not functional or makes my car unstable at 230 km/hr. Which it doesn't by the way. :D To each his own I say.. I've seen a lot of ugly looking kits/wings on many different cars.. So what? To that person it looks good I guess.. wachha gonna do? Shrug.
I think the RX-8 looks very good as is.. but who knows, it might look better with a spoiler or a body kit.. time will tell.

Rich

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I can't think of a single wing or spoiler on any road car that I thought improved the looks of the car. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I do realize that that statement places me solidly in a small minority. There are some I don't mind, but most I really dislike. The RX-7 above is an example of on that I really dislike, because without it I think the FD is one of the most beautiful cars ever made. Why mess with near perfection? The Miata is right up there as well, as those decklid spoilers completely ruin the lines of the car. The tacked on body kit stuff is far worse, IMHO. They just look like cheap plastic glued on to me. I like simple, clean, curvaceous lines. There are some more extreme cars that I like, the Lotus Elise and Ferrari F360 Modena come to mind.

Saying that I don't believe that a wing is functionally useful isn't the same thing as saying that only functionally useful things belong on the car.
There certainly are places for aesthetic considerations. That is actually one of the reasons I decided not to get an RX-8; I just really don't like the looks. I'm hoping they do better with the new RX-7. The reason I've brought up the functionality points are that there have been many posts on this thread that imply that wings/spoilers help the aerodynamics of a road car. That, I believe, is false. I could be wrong. They do not help the aerodynamics of the car, and they hurt performance (minimally, to be sure) by adding weight. They also add to the cost of the car. Why would I want to pay more for something that hurts performance and looks ugly (to me)? If you want a wing or spoiler because you like how it looks, that's fine. Go ahead and get one. Just don't try to justify it by claiming that it is functional.

As an aside, I have no problems with other people putting wings, spoilers, or body kits on their cars. Even though I don't like them, I wouldn't be happy if noone modified their cars. Variety is the spice of life, even if most of that variety is not what I would choose for myself. I actually enjoy seeing cars that racerboys have heavily modified; some are quite well done even if I wouldn't be caught dead driving them. I would certainly turn my head in appreciation if I say your Prelude on the street, but I wouldn't do the same thing to my Prelude if I owned one.

fuz

Just because it is from the factory does not mean it is not over-designed, or rice.

Variety I don't mind, but excessive use of go-fast looking parts I just shake my head at.

wakeech

it's interesting how you define "rice" yourself, fuz. i'm not trying to flame or anything!!!! but my definition differs...
i see "rice" as any aestetic alteration to a car which is indended to make it "look fast", which in many cases is done shabbily, or would infact make the car slower... oh, not to mention the fraudulent badging.

anyhoo, i can't see that RZ spec wing as something "over designed" as you put it, and given its obvious thought to function (noting the profile of the wing, dipped at the ends to increase efficiency as an easily observable example) and nod toward the TRENDS in automobile street fashion, for us younger folk, without going overboard (especially in its hieght; it's about at the functional maximum) in any direction, for me, and maintaining the styling used throughout the rest of the car (specifically in reference to the curves in the wing uprights)... no "flame" shaped endplates, double-decked (non-functional) aerofoils, or anything else retarded and regarded by all concerned as "rice".

also, an FD is really really quick, so i don't think that it's too much for THAT car, but on a Precidia, Civic, Corolla (:p), Accord, etc. etc. etc., it would be very very ricey...

ya, so just what i think, and my rational for liking that wing...

Quick_lude

Of course any person with a fwd car that tells anyone he's got a wing for better performance does not have all his facts straight.. I would never argue that my spoiler improves the handling of my car.. It's on for pure looks, end of story. But for some rwd cars like the Corrado or Porsche it does help. Either way, like I said we'll see how the RX-8 looks once it's out.. And maybe there will be nice looking aero packages for it.
Don't even get me started on the Rice boys out there.. Especially with the Civics.. They give other Honda owners a bad name not to mention the ammuniniton for the general public/cops/politicians stereotyping mature Honda owners like myself.

Grimace

For the record, wings can help on a FWD car. Thats why sometimes they are used in racing, like touring cars, for example. Its not to generation more traction, as everyone seems to think ("Why would you put a wing on a FWD car?") but rather to increase stability at high speeds.
That said, 99.9% of the wings found on road going FWD cars do nothing. The remaining .1% may increase stability at very high speeds (illegal speeds) and some even help to keep the rear window clean by creating vortices that sweep dust/grime away.

73JPS

Less is more.

Donny Boy

Wing, no. Small rear spoiler, yes if it's not too wild. The functioning of the spoiler is perhaps necessary. I, however, prefer the subtle spoiler as in the latest BMW M3.

Hercules

Don't know how it would look but yea, I would agree with the idea there

i11matic

I think toadman's picture of the wing is very nice actually and i am of the opinion that the RX8 looks much better with some form of spoiler\wing on the back. it helps bring the whole car together and i mean come on, what kind of sports car DOESNT have one? You know when you drive around and you see those eclipses without the spoiler\wing? well, that looks stupid. im of the opinion that, as long as its not one of those massive civic wings (dont hate me i have a civic but its all stock i swear :P) that it looks quite better with one. if it doesnt come with one then ill buy one to put on it when i get mine.

fuz

Yep, the M3 spoiler is there to add just a bit more of extra stability at autobahn speeds. No more, no less.