sonicblue6

The new STi design is slowly growing on me. Very //M coupe-ish. But, depreciation on new Subarus is a bitch. I'd be mildly interested in macking a used STi, just because they have so much raw power/torque, but good luck finding one not previously modded or abused....

2tone

iTrader: (3)

i agree with many here - keep the 8 and sustain the itch. i too, as most do, get the itch for a new car because i love cars!! i'd take a is, m45, s2000, x3, ms3. i love them all, but i love the 8 the most. that's why i'm keeping it forever, and once i pay it off, i can get something else on my list on a lease. think of me as jay leno, except i have no money.

the new m3 is coming out in a 4 door - even a "good" lease will be outrageous in price though! the legacy is sweet, drove my brother-in-laws, but style is kinda boring -- maybe you could add rims or something just to make it jump out more. the ms3 is definitely a good choice.

Revvittupp

You are dead on in your thought process, you are simply missing one thing. There is a BIG difference between Retail and Wholesale with used cars. Furthermore, you are not realizing the ASTRONOMICAL difference between a trade in and a CPO BMW. I am, in this instance speaking of both $ Figures, and the car itself. BMW's CPO process is as thorough, in depth, and valuable as ANY. Do you think a 6yr/100k warranty have any value? Well it COSTS, over $2500 if you buy it on your own. It comes with a CPO. CPO's will also be certain to have great tires and breaks, and be up to snuff in any of 100+ categories. Think fine tooth comb.
That said, CPO BMW's are also very hit and miss. If a dealer has one on his lot for 90 days he is about to LOSE a lot of money. If a dealer s unable to retail the car, he will have already spent a LOT of money to get it Certified, he will take the depreciation hit, and also will have paid interest for al of that time, on a large ammount of moeny. Because of all of this, a "fresh" CPO BMW will have A LOT of profit in it, to overcome the future expected losses.

YOur thought process on the MS3 lease makes sense to me and seems to be in the right ballpark . I agree the LGT looks good on paper, but it has no soul.

sonicblue6

yeah, Option 2 is to keep the RX8, try to be frugal. Option 3 is mod the RX8, have some fun with it, keep it fresh. Option 4 is get a bike, give me something else to ride, again, to keep the driving experience of the 8 from wearing thin.

New M3 is out of the question, I don't have that kind of coin. They'll be no good deals to be had, and even with a sky-high residual (say 70%) on a 24-month lease, $60K sticker, is $18K/24 = $750/mo. Tack of a rent charge of, even with a good rate, $250/mo and you're looking at $1K/month. Maybe a good deal for how much car you get, but out of my range!

kinchu007

iTrader: (1)

What about an Acura RSX Type-S A-Spec? That should be around 25k now that it's a year old, no? You should be able to find a dealer here or there that has one left and can't wait to dump it.

sonicblue6

Good point, Revv. Yes, I realize a CPO BMW is not just another used car, and there's a real value/cost/price to that, but let's break it down. Using leasecompare, I found that BMW's average 60-month lease residual factor is (high end) 40%. That means, were you to lease a new car for 60 months, they would make you pay as if you were going to "use up" 60% of the car's value over that time.

BUT, let's look at 2003 M3's (which are actually six "model years" old), five years old with 2008 approaching, on the CPO inventory. Searching within 100 miles of me, you can't find one for under $35K, and most are $40-45K. Back in 2003, these cars retailed for maybe $65K high-end (loaded convertible?) but probably more like $50-$55K, but let's use $60K. 40% of that is $24,000. I'm paying an extra $15-20K for the CPO status? That's fine tooth comb must be made of platinum! Charging $40K is equivalen to a 67% residual which is nearly as high as BMW's 24-month residuals!

I have no problem in general with their saying, "these cars are worth much more than average." OK, so when I lease it from you, be equally optimistic about what it will be worth 24-36 months from now! ;-)

sonicblue6

They always just felt/looked really small. Back seat actually usable? I'm totally spoiled by our suicide doors. I hate having to tilt up a seat for someone to get in the back!

delhi

keep the 8 and buy a Ducati.

sonicblue6

You....yeah, you..... I like you.....

Actually, I would just look at something like a Ninja 250 (the new ones are a ridiculous value), but this is a very hard option to get by the wife, even though the gas savings and insurance reduction (call the 8 a pleasure vehicle) would probably make it nearly net cost-free!

Razz1

Get a Honda Fit.


Or EVO MR

OfficeNinja

It's funny that you posted this, because for the year before I finally bought my 8, I had the same dilemma. And after reading through some of your posts, you and I seem to share similar thoughts on cars.

My requirements were this...

Not boring
Great handling (I liked your "can't drive 140" comment)
Unique
Must make wife sort of happy (and have room for kids on the way)

A friend of mine and I, being the analytical duo that we are... decided to compile a spreadsheet that consisted of new and used cars (5 year cutoff) and that existed in the $25-35K range. The STi and EVO were not included... because as much as I love and respect them, they are just too racer boi for me.

We ranked cars based on many many variables, such as HP, TQ, seats, doors, weight, price to HP ratio, Car and Driver Rating, Maintenance reviews, and finally, fun / cool factor. There were other categories, but this is the main group of factors.

The cars in the top of the ranks were the M3 / M5, G35, RX8, Acura TL-S and finally, the Volvo S40 T5 and the S60 R.

Now, I never drove the Volvo T5 or the S60, but just in doing the research, they are awesome cars. Much like Volkswagen, you don't REALLY think performance when you hear Volvo... but! The tunability of those cars is pretty amazing. The T5 with some bolt ons is in the mid 300's in HP. The visual upgrades on that car are equally amazing. Throw in the AWD package, and you have a nasty yet classy daily driver. I was EXTREMELY close to getting the T5, but the RX8 was just so different from what I was used to. I also think I was mesmerized by the word "wankel".

Good luck on your quest. Another option, if you are mechanically inclined, would be to keep a daily that's reliable and sort of fun, and start a project car that meets your wildest desires. I'm settling for both the 8 and a project car. But that's a whole other story that I'm sure my wife would love to chime in about as well.

Let us know what you decide.

-Thane

kinchu007

iTrader: (1)

Test drive one...they're way fun...the back seat is usable by anyone under 6 feet tall.

sonicblue6

I wish I could get a project car, but I just don't have the time. That's why mildly modding the 8 is a good option (by contrast, my WRX wasn't, because there was SO MUCH that could be done, each a pretty reasonable chunk of dollars; the 8 has only so many options before you find yourself dumping thousands to get real results). Keep my mod bug happy, not break the bank, keep the 8 fresh.

Revvittupp

First how many of these '03's that yoiu are looking at have 60k or more miles. Yoiu will see that mostCPO's, even '03's have 40k or under. It is simply TOO expensive to certify them. So that's A. B, is that the M# is a special circumstance, that held it's value better then expected. The Bangle'izing of cars, actually benefit the resale value, as many wanted the old style still.
The wrinkle there, is as a leaser, you can still win in this situation. The best thing to happen at the end of the lease is for the car to be worth more then the residual. You can simply sell it and keep the profits.
And C, as I mentioned, the $40k '03 M3 simply has too much profit. I wouldn't pay it either, btu then again, I wouldn't buy a used Beemer either. They are lease only in my mind. High Cost, high residual, High maintenance (though free for 50k), and not hte best long term reliability. That all adds up to leasing to me.

It doesn't hurt that BMW's business model is to sell every car twice... They do not typically have subsidized purcahse programs for new cars, just CPO cars. New cars have subsidized leasing. They want someone to lease it for three years, turn it in, a BMW dealership to buy it at auction, spends THOUSANDS to certify it and sell it retail to a customer that will hopefully lease next time.

shaunv74

Good point. There is nothing more expensive to own than a 3+ year old BMW with no maintenence plan...

sonicblue6

All good points, but here's what I don't get. Does BMW really just rely on a new-car lessee just "not wanting to deal with it"? Say I lease a $60K M3 new for five years, and pay on it as if it will only be worth $24K, my lease-end residual. Lo and behold, it's actually worth $40K+! But, I just go, f**k it, instead of buying it out and selling it for a quick $15K+ profit, I turn it into the dealer so they can make that kind of profit? I understand the model works from BMW's end, but I can't believe consumers let it propagate. The bottom line, it seems the market should lead to dealer/manufacturer incentive to get the residual as correct as possible, and that any blatant misfire at the target should be taken advantage of by someone until it disappears.

Ike

Subarus hold their value better than most cars in the industry... Depending on what source you look at, the STI and the Evo hold their value as good or better than any other car besides exotics. To give you an idea I traded in my WRX 3 years and 40k miles after I got it and got over 70% of what I paid in trade. I could have gotten about 1500 more private party which would have been over 75%. That is almost unheard of as far as resale value goes.

B7AudiS4

I'm a former owner of an e46 m3, currently have an Audi s4, have driven my friend's (kinchu007's) RX8 and STi.


Out of the cars I just listed I by far got greater enjoyment driving the M3. Why did I get rid of it? Maintenance / repair costs - even with a CPO warranty. As Kinchu already noted under moderate driving, you'd be lucky to get 10k miles out of the rear tires. Expect about $1k for new brakes, various o2 sensors giving out, random bushings having to be replaced. That said, mid 20s for that car is an incredible value. High powered, well balanced rear wheel drive car with stunning looks, what more could you ask for?

The RX8 in a lot of way seems like a toned down version of the M3 - its handling capabilities are similar but nothing like throwing a heavier feeling car around a curve (both in steering feel/input and in weight) and have it stick like glue.

The m3 interior is nice, though somewhat boring. The rear seats are more usable than those in my S4.

Out of all the cars I've ever driven, the only one I've enjoyed more was a 1997 Porsche 993 C2S. - However a good deal for those is still in mid to high 60s.

If you're prepared to spend some money on maintenance/repair, get the M3.

sonicblue6

You've got good timing, 'cuz I got waxed on my WRX when I sold it, even private party.

sonicblue6

Looks like quite a while before a CPO M3 makes it to $25K range, and I would be treading way carefully if I were to buy a private party 60K-mile+ one at that price (really high mileage used ones righ now are in that range). *sigh* no clear winner so far, but keep the conversation going, good stuff here....

kinchu007

iTrader: (1)

I loved your M3! Lucky bastard!

onephatguy

You buy a car for 25K and two years. Or you lease a 50K car for two years, and you spend about the same.

B7AudiS4

What about waiting for 135i? Not sure how usable those back seats will be though...

sonicblue6

Only if I actually pay that $25K car off in two years. If I just finance it via a 5-year loan, I'll pay maybe $500/month, vs. the lease of a $50K vehicle will probably cost near $1K/month.

sonicblue6

A-HA! I'm actually on the mailing list.... Only problem is, there will be a thousand of them on the road in a matter of months....