chetrickerman

i dont think they will ever throw in the towel on rotary engines. there is still so much potential with them.

1,000th post!!

fmzambon

Yes, of course... How much did Mazda respond to the SLIGHT request for more power in the last years??? Unless the new paint colors manage to increase the power output, the answer is ZERO. Sad but true.

On the other hand, I really don't think that the bosses at Mazda decided to start such a project (16x) without keeping in mind the skyrocketing (is this even a word? ) gas prices. IMHO, it's unlikely for the 16x to get cancelled very soon, and the more it gets closer to finished the less likely it will be. After all, it's far more logical to axe a project when you have only spent relatively little on it rather than to cancel it when it's nearly finished and millions have been poured in it.
This said, many project have been cancelled once they were almost finished. But I still think that the 16x will make it to the road, maybe in 2015, maybe it'll be called 16c or 16d, but I think (and hope) we'll see it.

shaunv74

I think development cycle times in general have been shrinking over the last decade due to advancements in computer analysis and simulation and computing power. You can do a lot more on the computer to get a lot further into the design cycle before you even build a prototype. In the 80's a platform and engine used to be around for 10-12 years, now it's about 5-8 depending on manufacturer. I wouldn't be suprised if we see them hit a 2010 and 2011 goal...We'll know more in the next few years as we get closer.

F22C1

Let's just hope that teh 16x will make it to production. Then when it does let's hope again that the power output of the 16x meeting the newer emissions requirement will really have as much reputable power as its competators at that time.

I'd hate to see the 16x get left behind when say a 370z, Evo x and STi are tuned with higher power. Then it'll be the RX-8 hp complaints all over again. Heck maybe even a camry will have 300 hp by then!

Mikeluvs8

i say just fi it...

Bester

I was really hoping that the 16x would show up in the last year of RX8 production (if not sooner). That way the retrofit of a 16x into the current RX8 would be easier.

Wishful thinking

brillo

From my sources and conversations, I'm not sure I buy into early "teens" as in 2013 etc....I'm still pretty comfortable we will see something in ~2011.

chetrickerman

yea, it will be pre-teens

refugeefrompistons

Yea, I agree. It is a translation so I would think he meant "next decade." Well that is for wishing. I do not think that computer analysis would decrease the time that much. They are trying to make it more complex which still requires a lot of physical testing since models can't predict everything.

chetrickerman

there is no better testing platform than the real world

shaunv74

Of course but you can much more quickly rule out bad designs and flaws on computer and then when you finally start building something your working on tweaking rather than going back to the drawing board.

Been there and done it myself (in a different industry). The computing power increases allow for improvements in the modeling software that allow you to do more and more detailed modeling with more accurate results in each successive generation.

4-5 years is a reasonable amount of time to bring a new engine to market.

Old Rotor

I just hope more and more companies are developing them then Mazda. It's rough when your the only one. Think were we could be if they all didn't quit in the '70.

lone_wolf025

Problem is Mazda owns the patents to the rotary. So in order to use it, they first need to pay Mazda for the specs, and even then it'd require just as much research. Plus, how many people would consider buying a GM rotary? Granted they've gotten better in years, but I wouldn't trust them that much.

DOMINION

Interesting read.

DMRH

History correction for you...........

NSU / Wankel own the right to the rotary engine. NSU was swallowed up by Audi in 1969 giving Audi the rights. Some may recall the Audi-100 rotary experimental of 1977...... Audi was swallowed by Volkswagen in 1965? meaning as of 2007. Volkswagen / Audi own the rotary engine patents & liceneses.

Mazda own many minor patents for different rotary engine applications but thats as far as it goes.

REgards

lone_wolf025

Point made. Regardless, anyone who would want to use the rotary would have to start at the bottom of the barrel as I highly doubt Mazda would let others use their patents. That and lack of demand is why no one else wants to mess with it.

chetrickerman

yea, seeing as barely anyone knows about it, there isnt THAT much demand for it. And i think the other automakers are more focused on getting hydrogen into their otto cycle engines.

(dont start another hydrogen debate)

Rotary Soul

ok, so let's say the 16b is coming in 201X... let's say it will make what, 280bhp? that's like a 20% increase in power... (i'm no wiz at the whole displacement thing, i'm just guessing) is that such an improvement over the FD? already mitsubishi, subaru, nissan, etc are coming up with cars that are much faster than that. in 6 more years (or whatever it is) nissan will no doubt have updated the gtr, and a few newer versions of EVOs will be out. can mazda really keep up with that? rx8 doesn't seem to have any plans of evolving... but isn't that what sports cars are supposed to do? evolve? get faster? is mazda giving up on competing with nissan, mitsu, etc? yeah it'll weigh less than the rx8, it'll have more power... but from what i can tell there isn't any indication that the new rotary car that may or may not come out in the next decade will be that much faster than the previous 7. will it have FI? is that the plan? or is mazda trying to compete in a class lower than the gtr and the evo? yeah the gtr will probably cost 30k more, the the evo won't. the rx7 is supposed to be a flagship model isn't it? you can flame me all u want about whatever ignorance i might have, i don't really care... i love my 8, but it just doesn't seem like mazda is keeping up.

Floyd

If they wanted to pull out all the stops I have no doubt that Mazda could make a 3 rotor 16x based model that would smoke the GTR. 2.4L of rotary displacment with a single turbo would blow all of our minds! I'll bet they could do it for $5k-10k less than Nissan's GTR of the day too. This is of course if they wanted to. They have not really historicaly shown that they do.

chetrickerman

yea, i dont think mazda really cares about the competition. if they did they would stick to the piston engines. they are pioneers IMO

fmzambon

Very good point Rotary Soul. As you say in your post, will the new rotary car be able to compete with the GTR and the evo x (and the rest)?
IMO, the answer is "it depends". It depends with what these new cars will cost.
In fact, no one complains that the current rx-8 can't keep up with a Ferrari 599 GTB... well, the Ferrari costs nearly ten times as much, it would be too good to get the same performance with only a fraction of the cost...
Sooo... the new evo, sti, gtr, s2000, 370z and the rest can get as fast as they want, but as their speed rises, their price tag goes up as well. And if this goes on without a limit, they'll simply move in another market segment, leaving their current one.
And having the monopoly of a market piece (or very little competition) would ensure very good sales to the new rotary car. Regardless if its performance.

chetrickerman

YESS!!! good post

ASH8

How can you compare the "other" makes to the 8, they are 2,3 even 4 times the price of an 8.

shaunv74

280hp<>fast. Power to weight ratio will tell you more. I suspect the 16x could easily be faster than an FD in the same weight car. We'll have to see what it ends up going in to and how it's geared and a million other things to see how it will stack up against the competition.

When the FD came out it was 45-50hp down compared to it's competition and still was top of the heap.

chetrickerman

and you have to remember, right now, at the track, when our car is stock it still keeps up or beats cars like the 350, evo, and sti. half is the car, half is the driver.
if the 16x puts out 280 to 300, we should beat the pants off of them. the other auto makers like nissan are focused towards drag and driting, they wont be looking into track cars like mazda does