robrecht

Muscle car, flexing muscles ... interesting terminology. Boldy builders like Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?) build their muscles to extreme proportions but aren't necessarily flexible or athletic. Sports cars should be more like athletes that are able to excel in functional holistic strategic tasks. High performance should mean how well a car performs overall on a variety of road and track situations. Balance and agility are key attributes of high performance, but a little more power wouldn't hurt, right?

6speed8

A little more power is NEEDED to allow the RX-8 to be as agile as say the:

S2000 2810lbs 240hp (238 SAE adjusted?) gives it 1 hp for each 11.7 lbs (11.8 SAE)
350Z 3339lbs (287hp) (base model) gives it 1 hp for each 11.6 lbs
New Mustang 3560lbs 300hp gives it 1hp for each 11.8 lbs
Mazda RX-8 2940lbs 238 (232 SAE) gives it 1hp for each 12.3 lbs (12.6 SAE)

Let's not even get into Torque per lbs. Now while Gearing and RPMS can help, it is really not quite enough. IF (big IF) the RX-8 had a TRUE 250hp (Interesting number eh?) it would have 1 hp for each 11.7 lbs which would put it smack dab in the middle of it's sales competition.

saturn

Agreed. But what has been exaggerated all that much from the truth? This car, by most accounts, does not come close to "good" gas mileage relative to other cars in its class. Flooding was a major concern back before all the flash updates. And the car has very little torque. These are the "claims" being made against the 8 in all the magazines -- how is it overblown?

No one is saying that car floods everyday and gets 8 mpg while not being able to out drag a Geo Metro. Everything I've read is pretty fair and balanced. It just so happens that most Americans (magazines included) want torque with reliability and ease of maintenance. While their desires may be short-sighted and narrow, their analysis, IMO, is fair.

maikelnait

Rumour has it (In Spain at least) that Mazda will be releasing a Mazdaspeed 8 version. No displacement increase but FI. What they never told us is about the regular 8.

I don't wanna get into "My rumor is better than yours" but if the Mazdaspeed 8 comes true, the standard 8 might be unaddressed.

I don't conceive Mazda releasing a Mazdaspeed or MPS version of their flagship sportscar. Too redundant. I'd rather see them releasing a 300 Hp standard car. FI or not.

Care to wager?? LMAO

nucleus

Look, Mazda is not going to give up on its flagship sportcar. OF COURSE there will be a Mazdaspeed RX-8, but we may have to wait until the 2008 MY.

Right now Mazda has been going crazy with their 2.3 liter four cylinder FI engine, 274 HP in the Mazdaspeed 6, 250 HP in the just announced Mazdaspeed 3. This engine will no doubt find its way into the MX-5 as well. So right now you can can buy a Mazda 6 with 42 HP more than a RX-8.

Does anyone really think that Mazda is going let this situation continue?

As I have said before in this discussion, I foresee a 23% displacement increase for the RX-8. 1.6 liters by Mazda's method. This will increase power, and perhaps more importantly, responsiveness at lower RPM's.

Also, at some point there will be a Mazdaspeed RX-8 that will be a Forced Induction version of the new 1.6 liter rotary . This car will have a significantly more power than the Mazdaspeed 6, thus restoring the power hierarchy to the Mazda line.

Common sense don't you think?

Nucleus

Wurmfist

Well I've seen this here on this forum before. Yeah the 6 has more horsepower, but it's like driving a brick compared to the RX-8. Weight is an issue as well. And the 6 is a sedan, not a sports car.


Here's the link of the new 2008 RX-8.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...er=upcomingCX7


haha! JOKE! No really, but they did take the styling ideas from the 8.

savedsol

Nope. The limited MS runs of the past are downright dumb. Are you telling me that the new Cobra sales are going to cannibalize Mustang GT and V6 sales? The answer is 'No'. Why does it take years to get any appreciable performance adjustments and when it does happen it'll only be on sale for a year and limited run? This is the reason I've held off on buying an 8. I want it , but I want it to be something more. I don't feel the same commitment from Mazda.

280RX-8

I'm about the same. Most of the stuff I read is pretty balanced, but some tend to lay into the negatives more than others, mostly about oil consumption. One thing, though, Mazda sure made it more of a hassle to get to the dipstick than it needs to be, at least on the 2004's. If I'm going to be checking the oil all the time, I don't want to take off the engine cover every go-round. Some of these things have held my desire for an 8 in check, particularly the MPG/power ratio, because as I said in that other thread, if I'm getting V-8 gas mileage, I want some power to at least come close to matching. I'm still going to buy one, though.

rx8wannahave

^I understand what you are saying...

Before anyone thinks I might not love my 8 and its rotary engine, that's not the point of this comment. I have grown to love the rotary, my 8, and appreciate it's qualities tremendously.

When I hear fellow 8 drivers complain about 10-13mpg (keeping in mind driving style, conditions on the road (traffic/weather/etc), and what they put in gas in some places) if it was me...I would have complained up to the dang CEO of Mazda.

But this is not about the fuel economy only...

When you look at the rotary engine...it's simple design, compact size/weight, and high rev range you can't help but fall in love with it. BUT, when you compare power vs fuel economy made you really have to be honest and question why they still build the rotary engine.

I always make this comparison, when you look at what Chevy can do with a big 6L 400HP V8 when it comes to fuel economy it makes you question further why stick with the rotary engine. Sure, some people will say that the EPA numbers are impossible to get yet with each car I’ve owned I’ve been able to get slightly better fuel economy than the EPA in the city and in my 8 I’m continuing that trend with a lifetime average of 19.2mpg.

Finally, since it’s so unique…it’s also a bit harder or more costly to squeeze more power out of it compared to the piston engine.

So, our logical side of our brain (and those in car companies) leave us to conclude that the piston engine is the better choice…if for no other reason than it has had A LOT more R&D put into it and on the scale of power per fuel economy it wins hands down.

Yet, the thing about the rotary is that it’s not a logical choice when compared to the piston engine (at this time and in the past at least) yet it’s able to capture, inspire, and excite your emotions like most piston engines can never even come close to.

It’s an engine born for the track and performance (handling, high reve range, and power when you go 3-rotor or 2-rotor Turbo) but in it’s common form for us people in the public it’s honestly not the best choice.

Yet…the passion it inspires crushes our logical side of our brains and makes even the most common daily commute into our own day at the track, as if no one else was on the road but us…our 8, and the curves.

It’s not the logical choice…it’s the automotive enthusiast’s Holy Grail of driving pleasure. If only more R&D was put into it…who knows it’s potential, but it may forever be just a unique engine for us illogical automotive enthusiasts.

Wow…was I dramatic or what…lol!

robrecht

Maybe just a little bit.

Wurmfist

Good points rx8wannahave. I bought my 04 RX-8 knowing that the fuel economy was going to be crap. I never trust EPA estimates just because I don't drive normally anyway. But unlike a lot of people this car is strickly a toy for me. It's not a daily driver for me, I don't commute in it. So all I do is play in it, and that means low gas mileage. And it's going to get even worse when I start autocrossing this year.

New Yorker

Simply amazing. Reading many of the posts here, I now realize there must be two different RX-8's…

The RX-8 in this thread
• disappointing fuel economy
• weak torque
• prone to flooding
• excessive oil consumption
• conceptually brilliant but, alas, ultimately inferior engine design

The RX-8 tested by auto journalists around the world
• "Here's one of those sports cars whose charm is all out of proportion to its numbers." (C&D)
• Winner in comparison test vs. Nissan 350Z and Honda S2000 (MT)
• Winner in comparison vs. VW R32 (Evo)
• Car & Driver's Ten Best Cars: 2005, 2006
• "The RX-8 exhibits precision, efficiency, and imagination. Maybe it's because the Mazda people are real engineers, the kind of people who pride themselves on being able to do for a dime what any fool could do for a dollar." (Automobile)
• "Mazda’s Wankel — stop sniggering at the back — rotary engine is not the only thing that marks the RX-8 out from the crowd. Distinctive styling and those suicide doors make it the most recognisable coupé around. It handles well, so long as it’s dry, and has the comfort of a much more expensive car, making it practical as a long-distance cruiser. The engine might lack low-down torque and you can see the fuel needle move at cruising speeds but these are small prices to pay for a car only the Japanese could pull off." (Jeremy Clarkson)
• "If there's a single thing that stands out about the RX-8, it's the ability to draw you into the driving experience, where the car feels like an extension of your body rather than an assemblage of parts that you guide along." (R&T)
• "These are all the hallmarks of a light, precise car, something that sports car drivers have been talking about since Colin Chapman built the first Lotus Mark 6 in the early 1950s. The Z-car is terrific in its own right, a brawny car that you can drive with your biceps, feeling confident that it will never let you down. It's faster than the RX-8, and you can work up a sweat in it. The BMW 330i makes time on the road without actually asking much from the driver, the pulling power of the in-line six-cylinder carrying you irresistibly forward. And yet, who wants to always work up a sweat while driving? And isn't there something about the tall center of gravity in a sedan that makes you feel as if a block of lead is sliding across the rear package shelf every time you go around a corner?" (Automobile)
• "Regardless of how many doors the RX-8 has, it is ultimately a sport coupe that offers sensational handling without the stiffness typically associated with cars of this type." (Edmunds.com)
• "...the RX-8's seats fit like a second skin and the chassis felt alive and willing." (R&T)
• "Exceptionally well-balanced and behaved." (Motor Trend)
• "It's got a great engine, it makes a great noise, it goes like stink, it's very comfortable, it's practical, it's well priced, and it's well equipped...and then there's the really good stuff." (Clarkson)
• "The engine will spin to 9,000 rpm faster than you can say 'rev limiter' and feels more willing at high rpm than even Honda's S2000 because of the rotary's phenomenal smoothness." (Edmunds.com)
• "...it jinks through the slalom like a Heisman Trophy winner shrugging off tackles…"
(R&T)
• One of the 10 Best Road Trip Vehicles" (Kelley Blue Book)
• "...the RX-8 carves arcs through corners with supple coordination, practically begging its driver to attack the curbs in a blissful symbiosis of man and machine." (R&T)
• "It's been widely praised in the logbook for its handling prowess, its firm, somewhat forgiving sport suspension feel and a quality, edgy interior that's become a hallmark of Mazda's vehicle line." (AutoWeek)
• "...this mighty-mite motor makes pure magic." (C&D)
• "...for sure it is one fine driving machine, providing a far superior ride to the Nissan 350Z or Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, while still holding its own when the going gets twisty." (R&T)
• "In some regards, the RX-8 is a small exoticar with marvelous engineering innovations. In other ways, it has the amenities and comfort of an everyday driver with the safety and warranty expected from a modern car - all while exhibiting a light, athletic feel and strong value message." (MT)

Wurmfist

Totally agree with you. I love my 8. But most people usually want more than what they have just because sometimes the wanting is more fun than the having. There will always be people to point out problems.

rx8wannahave

Three37NY...thanks for that collection of praise, sure I've heard some of it before but putting it all down together brought me a smile!

No, it's not perfect...it's just near perfect!

Socr8tes

I think I may have accidentally gotten one of the RX-8s manufactured for the journalists.

saturn

The difference is this isn't a forum of people trying to sell you something. We're normal people with cars that we drive every single day. We're the ones going to gas station filling up our tanks, not some intern college student. We have to deal with the dealers and when we complain, no one listens -- quite a far cry from when C&D tosses its weight around. Anyone can hop in the car for 20 minutes with no regard for the price, warranty, cost of gas, difficulty of maintenance and sing nothing but praises.

You want a real opinion? Why don't you ask the journalists who made those comments what kind of car they drive? They're not all going to have an RX-8. It takes more than some visceral feeling about a car to make me buy it. And even when I do I'm not going to be unrealistic about what it is and isn't giving me. Fell free to live in your world of dramatic one-liners that belies the reality of what this car is and isn't.

You did, however, leave out my favorite quote: "It's got a great engine, it makes a great noise, it goes like stink, it's very comfortable, it's practical, it's well priced, and it's well equipped...and then there's the really good stuff." -- Jeremy Clarkson.

New Yorker

Your point is well taken, Saturn. I, for one, realize the 8 is by no means perfect. And I knew all its quirks and problems before I bought mine (just a month ago) thanks, in part, to people like you who point them out. Would I like better fuel economy? Of course. More power? Yeah, ok (though coming from a Miata, obviously speed isn't what does it for me.) I guess what bothers me is that, reading many of these posts, one would walk away thinking of the 8 as basically a major disappointment. Yet when you read the reviews, you get the sense that this car is not just respected, but loved. It seems to be a special car that has charmed countless journalists—even when the car is put head-to-head with all sorts of competitors. (I forgot to add Evo's picking the 8 over an R32, and Automobile liking it over a 300Z and a BMW 3-series.) Aren't these same journalists trying to "sell" those other cars too? It's rare to see so many jaded scribes (who have pretty much seen and done everything on wheels) rave about a car the way they do about the 8. It puts it in elite journalistic company, along with, well, the Miata, the Mini, the M3 and pretty much any Porsche. Not a bad place to be.

(And thanks for mentioning that other Clarkson quote. I'm putting it on the list.)

rx8wannahave

Saturn...I understand what you are saying also.

Like I said, the car is not perfect with a bit more power...better fuel economy, and a bit here and there the RX8 would be pretty much the best bang for the buck out there.

As it is now, it's a fine car and I'm glad I got it...but like you, I've learned where it lacks also.

AQA101

While I disagree with the "ultimate inferior engine design", I don't see too many contradictions here.

The car eats more fuel and oil than a car with a "common" engine would and besides that offers less torque, which is pretty obvious if you look at how forces of expanding gas affect a rotor in comparison to a piston.

All those positive things written about the car apply nevertheless. The comments in this forum basically add the maintenance experience of a million miles driven in RX-8s all over the world. And since members of this forum are not (or rather seldom) arguing why the RX-8 is great and anything else isn't, there's a bit more criticism than in a glossy test drive report.

I also have a feeling that quite many people in this forum drive this car because they somewhat care about technology, which adds further to the level of criticism.

It's still one and the same and not two different cars, our combined experience with it just adds some depth to the review.

Midnight Wankeler

I sorta see people points here: im iv lobe with the RX-8 except for the engine:

If the renesis is so great, how come it has less output than an similar displacement engine:

ie: Honda's F22C on the S2000

- more power (as proven on dynos: up to 210whp, instead of 190)
- more fuel efficient (more economical)
- consumes less oil

raspyrx7

2200cc vs 1300cc dOOd. The power and fuel economy of a rotary NA is like that of a 2 cycle.... gotta keep'r on the pipe and a fuel jug in reserve

TALAN7

You have to live with the 8 on a daily basis to really discover its strengths, and weakness. Strengths; it's fun, handles well, is pretty decently made.

Weakness; very little torque which is really a bother on my new commute which includes steep mountainous terrain. I had a hard time passing a Hyundai Elantra the other day, and I downshifted. This car just doesn't have the grunt going uphill.

Also, the gas mileage is atrocious. It's still fun to drive though. I think I may have outgrown it. Since I'm pass my warranty, it might be time to add more power to bring the excitement back. I'm sure with 20-30more hp the 8 would be great. (I made a rhyme)

missinmahseven

TALAN7

Why do you say BS

missinmahseven

Because your little Elantra story smells like yesterday's fish. You're describing the behavior of an 80's econobox, and the 8 isn't like that. How do I know this? I used to drive an '84 Rx-7 with 140 ponies. That car would rip up the Appalachians like there was no tomorrow, passing winnebagos, cadillacs, benzes, whatever. And that was 140 ponies. Hell, even my miata, with it's truly pathetic claimed 128 horses didn't behave like that.

So, as I see it, there are 3 options to your story:

1. You're not getting all the power you should. Have your car checked out, pull a compression test.

2. Even tho you claim you 'downshifted' you were STILL in too high a gear. What were your speed and RPM when you attempted to pass? You just can't drive this like a V-8, man. If you're at 2500 rpm and try to pass it ain't gonna happen quickly. If you're at 4000+ you're gonna fly. Up hill, down hill, flat level, don't matter. She just doesn't behave like you're describing.

3. You're lying.

So which one is it?