Hows this for an idea for Mazda... how about making the new fleet of vehicles that are releasing E85 or higher capable since we are moving towards that. it only makes since. It would be foolish to make all these upgrades in technology but not make the vehicle ready for alternative fuels.

 

Umm....check the first post.

 

Speedsource Rx8

20B 3 Rotor (NON RENISIS) = approx. 419wHP

I must repeat this is not a renisis type engine and will not meet emissions.


This is what I am thinking though...

Mazda is spending a bit of money on a next gen rotary...It makes no sence that the "current" hydrogen power plant is the next gen rotary since its already developed and being tested. I believe further improvements will be made to the gasoline version of the Rotary. Maybe it will run on diesel...who knows. One thing I do know/believe is that the next gen renisis will have more power and be more fuel efficient. Mazda's zoom zoom mentality depends on this achievement. Mazda is not Mazda with out there rotary and they love being unique/different.

Kabura = possible next Rx7
Mx5 = they need this car to compete with the likes of S2000 and Solstice GXP so either Rotary or 2.3 L 4 with FI.
Rx = must compete with 350z etc...To do this the car has to be different...Out of the ordinary. More likely to happen - 2500 to 2700 lbs next gen 2 rotor (300 HP). Least likely to happen - 2700 to 2900 lbs next gen 3 rotor (350 HP) however this would give Mazda the excuse to develop a new race motor design that can be used in the Grand AM/GT races.

 

Hello all - just here to add a "quick" 2 cents...

I've been avoiding this thread for a while because I expected it to be an all-hype-and-no-fact thread that seem to pop up every week *cough*Mazdaspeedrx8*cough*. Well, I just read the whole thread and there's something that I think some of the more negative people need to remember something:

The rotary engine has sucked from day one. Now, don't get your panties in a bunch and tell me all the great things it's capable of and how useful it is and blah blah blah - I already know all of that; proud owner of two 7's & an 8. I'm talking strictly in terms of the sports car automotive world. Virtually every iteration of the rotary (yes, even the 8... sorry guys, but get real) has been, in terms of marketable appeal, a grand failure.
The rotary was, and still is, a pain in the *** for your everyday driver. As far back as the 1st generation RX-7, all other cars in the same price range offered better gas mileage, more horsepower, more torque, more reliability, and required less "special treatment" from their owners.

Yet year after year, car after car, Mazda keeps making one new rotary after another. I mean, everyone here can agree that (aside from rotorheads) when people think of rotary engines, 95% of them think of the FD. And everyone here can also agree that when people think of the FD, 99.9% of them think "automotive & mechanical disaster/time bomb." The fact that Mazda went ahead and released a new rotary car after the wounds left by the FD had 10 years to fester clearly shows that Mazda has no intention of giving up on this motor...EVER.

I can promise you, there will be another turbo rotary in the future. Hell, I bet Mazda will at least build a prototype rotary for every popular fueltype that creates enough market buzz. Gasoline, Deisel, Vegetable Oil, Ethanol, Bio-deisel, Hydrogen, Electic, Hybrids, Compressed air, HHO gas, Steam, Coal, Uranium, Titanium, Kryptonite, Methanol, Butane, Alcohol, Peroxide, Kitchen grease, Hair grease, Space Dust... If there's a market, Mazda will build a rotary for it.

 

The MAIN problem with the rotary is Mazda holds the patent and won't let anyone else use it. The technology could be light years ahead of where it is now.

 

if that's true, then i'm glad they won't let anyone else use it. i serious doubt any of the other companies would dedicate the resouces (time, money, whatever) with the passion necessary to make it any more successful.

 

is that the case? im not familar with the situation but i thought other companies made rotary engines, they just stopped making it due to technology related issues vs piston... theres been threads about the rotary powered chevy corvette

 

No one would want to work with the rotary after the oil crisis anyways. Also no one got it to work before that. (i.e. mercedes, GM). I think other companies would want to have a try at it now, since it has huge potential as a hydrogen combustion engine. Look at the crappy horsepower a big V12 BMW makes with hydrogen, mazda makes about half of that with a only a NA 4-port renesis.
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I still think the Rotary is a good design it just needs more $$ dedicated to development. With more money and research all avenues like diesel, hybrid and so forth can be tested and new technologies used. Even with all this Mazda will need some sort of major breakthrough to make the rotary widely accepted. It will need to provide comparable power and MPG or better as well as reliability and no extra care than a piston engine before there would be wide market acceptance.

If Mazda can make it as powerful (compared with vehicle weight), as good gas mileage, reliability, remove flooding, and provide a reservoir for oil (like window washer fluid) as WRX or even a Camry V6 then you may see wider use of the rotary. For now as it has been in the past it’s a niche motor for a niche market.

 

well as it stands, piston technology is obviously well ahead of rotary right now. of course rotary has its advantages too, but overall pistons are just better for automobile applications. for the rx8, the rotary is a pretty good mix because sports cars have a different set of criterials and purpose than most cars.

thats right now...

but technology changes, and with new technologies there could very well be breakthroughs and make rotary the better solution. or even a new form of engine, but i dont see piston engines being dominant forever, if there indeed is a new breakthrough with hydrogen rotarys that makes it much better than piston, then Mazda will be way ahead of the curve.

 

I would assume that mazda has patents on new tech inside the renesis but for the basic wankel that patent is long gone?

 

I think Mazda holds the patents on the rotary period. They obtained this in the late 70's I think..

 

patents last for 30 years, if I'm not mistaken.

 

No one else WANTS to use it. Mazda is the only company that continued with Rotary research when it was abandoned by other manufacturers.

 

Tell that to Disney.

 

I think that the basic design of the rotary is open for use. The problem would be dumping all the money into researching a good design. I suspect that if Mazda does really well with the rotary then I could see them licensing it out to others starting with Ford.

 

money is always a big issue, mazda just dosnt have any incentive to pure in the kind of dollars into R&D to make it competitive imo.

The rx series are very low volume sellers that dosnt make much money for them relatively speaking. They are better off spending their R&D dollars on crossovers and other high volume selling cars that have a much better rate of return vs rotary cars.

in the end Mazda operates just like any other profit maximizing firm, their number 1 goal is to make money.

 

things are changing, I foresee R&D budget will increase for mazda (just as the post about selling more shares indicates), and also more of that budget will go into rotary engine. They are developing hydrogen rotaries (either to generate press, or develop future vehicles, it doesnt matter), and even if the gasoline R&D budget stays the same, it'll benefit from the hydrogen side.

Also the rotary could also share some of the piston R&D, for example direct injection. Even tho its two different engines, they still share things like high pressure fuel pumps, etc, etc.
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thats is the most stupid thing that mazda can probably do. rotary in another brand.

 

one thing mazda should do is create a data bank and training system for rotary experts inside of mazda, its really frustrating to see that every time the rotary experts retire the next gen makes the same mistakes that where made before, most of the things that the rx-8 suffers from where resolve in other rotary cars a long time ago, they should have use that expirience

 

I think Corporate (JP) is working on that by altering their retirement policies, allowing engineers of retirement of age to stay on in executive training type positions. Thinga are looking up. Perhaps we'll see a rotary with virtually no stories of flooding and without the need for a business woman to check her oil every other fill up .

PT

 

just by solving the flooding and oil eating and gas guzzling aspect of the rotary would go a long way toward becoming more competitive vs piston technology even if the power is still lower.

 

this is good to hear, things are truly lookimg up

 

Improving MPG and removing flooding would allow it to be used in a wider range of vehicles. Just having a resevoir for oil under the hood like washer fluid would help.

230hp is fine for a MX5 or Mazda 6 or a detuned version for a Mazda 3, also a greater return on investment.

 

I'm no engineer but, intuitively at least, I would imagine the rotary engine—with what, just 3 moving parts?—should be far more reliable than a piston engine. I suspect there's also the issue of economy of scale. Rotary engines are probably expensive—they're hand built, yes?—largely due to the fact that they're produced in such small numbers. But if millions of vehicles used rotary engines, wouldn't those engines be much cheaper to build—and maintain—than piston engines?