Everyday Driver: FRS vs RX8 vs S2000
08-16-2013 | 02:12 PM
#151
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,036
Likes: 4
From: Colorado
^ I didn't make up the site RIWWP, that's my car, that's the price. Ist yr depreciation is always a bitch, the car doesn't matter. You have to look at the price decline over the long term to see how the value maintains itself ... or not.
08-16-2013 | 02:13 PM
#152
I know you didn't make up the price. Just saying that there IS very much a difference from car to car, and the 8 is a fair bit worse than most. Perhaps about average for most high strung sports cars, but by no means average across all cars.
08-16-2013 | 02:28 PM
#154
2005 Mazdaspeed Miata: (speced mine, which I have for sale) Used Car Pricing for 2005 Mazda MX5 Miata Convertible | Clearbook by TrueCar
Used your same site, and it's hovering at ~50% of original MSRP ($11.3k vs $25k)
2005 RX-8, specced my RX-8: Used Car Pricing for 2005 Mazda RX-8 Coupe | Clearbook by TrueCar
At 21% of original MSRP. Even if I make the mileage the same, it only brings it up to 26% of MSRP
Pretty big difference there, without even going to quality econobox cars.
Used your same site, and it's hovering at ~50% of original MSRP ($11.3k vs $25k)
2005 RX-8, specced my RX-8: Used Car Pricing for 2005 Mazda RX-8 Coupe | Clearbook by TrueCar
At 21% of original MSRP. Even if I make the mileage the same, it only brings it up to 26% of MSRP
Pretty big difference there, without even going to quality econobox cars.
08-16-2013 | 02:38 PM
#155
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,036
Likes: 4
From: Colorado
What can I tell ya. An 8 yrs old isn't a 10 yr old car for starters. And then the MX-5 is still in production which ups it's value vs the RX-8, and further ANY 100K+ mileage car value is going to suck eggs, that's just the way of the market.
Perhaps I should rephrase so we are talking apples to apples - a 10 yr old car (mine is 7/03 production date), ~50K miles, model no longer in production, excellent condition.
Perhaps I should rephrase so we are talking apples to apples - a 10 yr old car (mine is 7/03 production date), ~50K miles, model no longer in production, excellent condition.
08-16-2013 | 02:44 PM
#156
I can't get to a 10 year old RX-8 if you consider 2005 as 8 years old...
I just used two cars I have actually owned and knew there was a difference on. Also, note that I mentioned what happens when you equal the mileage. There is still a huge difference, 50% vs 26%.
My RX-8 dropped $13,000 retail value in 1 year (Which is when I bought it), my wife's Mazda2 drops about $1,000 value in 1 year, which disproves your prior "1st yr depreciation is always a bitch, the car doesn't matter"
How do you recommend I go about valuing a 2003 RX-8 to find a car to compare it to?
I just used two cars I have actually owned and knew there was a difference on. Also, note that I mentioned what happens when you equal the mileage. There is still a huge difference, 50% vs 26%.
My RX-8 dropped $13,000 retail value in 1 year (Which is when I bought it), my wife's Mazda2 drops about $1,000 value in 1 year, which disproves your prior "1st yr depreciation is always a bitch, the car doesn't matter"
How do you recommend I go about valuing a 2003 RX-8 to find a car to compare it to?
08-16-2013 | 02:50 PM
#157
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,036
Likes: 4
From: Colorado
Ok I'll give on that last - cheap economy cars are not going to drop fast .. sometimes not at all in the 1st yr - we are in a hi-mpg world these days after all. I once owned a total POS Honda Civic we bought used for 10K and after suffering with it for a yr, we sold it... for 10K. It wasn't worth $hit as a car, and I was both amazed and baffled why anyone would pay top $$ for a noisy, uncomfortable, rough riding economy car new or used....except for the fact that I did, but only because my wife wanted to lol.
08-17-2013 | 03:15 AM
#158
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 48
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From: United Kingdom
Lack of interest?
When they were released, Scion's sales jumped 33%. Subaru is seeing near constant record sales, with a BRZ wait-line of 8 months at one point.
No, there is no lack of interest.
Any abnormal depreciation will likely be due to either an expectation that every one is trashed and beat on, or a larger than expected volume of them.
When they were released, Scion's sales jumped 33%. Subaru is seeing near constant record sales, with a BRZ wait-line of 8 months at one point.
No, there is no lack of interest.
Any abnormal depreciation will likely be due to either an expectation that every one is trashed and beat on, or a larger than expected volume of them.
Again in the UK the RX8 has lost huge amounts of value. Take the R3; £25k new, you can buy 2009 plate cars now with 25k millage for £6500. £19k in 4 years. shocking depreciation but thats because of our car tax and fuel. To tax a 2006 onwards RX8 its £475 for a year, thats just under $1000.
08-18-2013 | 05:09 PM
#161
Understood how many problems the UK taxes cause. I don't envy you one jot there.
Scion is a division of Toyota, same as Lexus is. The car sold as the Toyota FT86 everywhere else in the world is sold as the Scion FR-S in the US. Same car, same company, different brand and model name.
Were you aware that the turbo version was actually a pipe dream from fans, and NOT ONCE actually furthered for production by Toyota (who only did the styling for the car) or Subaru (who did all the engineering for the car). Seriously, every single "future turbo" reference ever made was from magazines and fan clubs, and not from the people actually building the car.
So, they didn't "cancel" something that wasn't ever on publicly announced.
The convertible isn't even a sure thing, it's just theorized and suggested at. It's a pure concept at this point, and it shouldn't be any surprise that a concept wouldn't make it to production. Most don't after all.
So no, not only do both points not "say it all", neither of them actually say anything about the current production car!
The car isn't fading, it's still selling quite well.
(US numbers: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10766)
Scion is a division of Toyota, same as Lexus is. The car sold as the Toyota FT86 everywhere else in the world is sold as the Scion FR-S in the US. Same car, same company, different brand and model name.
So, they didn't "cancel" something that wasn't ever on publicly announced.
The convertible isn't even a sure thing, it's just theorized and suggested at. It's a pure concept at this point, and it shouldn't be any surprise that a concept wouldn't make it to production. Most don't after all.
So no, not only do both points not "say it all", neither of them actually say anything about the current production car!
The car isn't fading, it's still selling quite well.
(US numbers: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10766)
Code:
Month BRZ MTD BRZ YTD BRZ ALL FRS MTD FRS YTD FRS ALL May 12 271 271 86 86 Jun 12 818 1089 2684 2770 Jul 12 498 1587 1649 4419 Aug 12 623 2210 1913 6332 Sep 12 508 2718 1133 7465 Oct 12 402 3120 1107 8572 Nov 12 527 3647 1350 9922 Dec 12 497 4144 1495 11417 Jan 13 463 463 4607 1443 1443 12860 Feb 13 420 883 5027 1369 2812 14229 Mar 13 905 1788 5932 1828 4640 16057 Apr 13 812 2600 6744 1629 6269 17686 May 13 679 3279 7423 1937 8206 19623 Jun 13 789 4068 8212 1815 10021 21438 Jul 13 706 4774 8918 1614 11635 23052
08-18-2013 | 11:59 PM
#162
Mu ha.. ha...
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,361
Likes: 3
From: Cali
It's been posted by a few shops that the FRS only has 130 RWHP.
Why? The ECU is too sensitive and the car runs hot.
After normal operation the engine heats causes the ECU to drop the power output.
Sure they can get 160 RWHP but it is very short lived. Take it to the track and it won't have a chance.
Why? The ECU is too sensitive and the car runs hot.
After normal operation the engine heats causes the ECU to drop the power output.
Sure they can get 160 RWHP but it is very short lived. Take it to the track and it won't have a chance.
08-19-2013 | 01:02 AM
#163
Un-Registered User
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 3
From: NZ Brahhhhh
It's been posted by a few shops that the FRS only has 130 RWHP.
Why? The ECU is too sensitive and the car runs hot.
After normal operation the engine heats causes the ECU to drop the power output.
Sure they can get 160 RWHP but it is very short lived. Take it to the track and it won't have a chance.
Why? The ECU is too sensitive and the car runs hot.
After normal operation the engine heats causes the ECU to drop the power output.
Sure they can get 160 RWHP but it is very short lived. Take it to the track and it won't have a chance.
I had a BRZ try chase me down on the mountain road to the "Sign of the Kiwi" (NZ road, you won't know it)
Short story short, LOL
And people say the RX8 lacks power
08-19-2013 | 01:28 AM
#165
Un-Registered User
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 3
From: NZ Brahhhhh
It sucks because the main part of "Summit Road" is closed due to earthquake damage. And that road is one of the best roads I have ever driven on. I literally know it like the back of my hand. I was attacking it at 16 in a Rover Tomcat (200whp 2L Turbo FWD haha) So much fun
I actually had to slow down in my 8 as my gf was feeling sick haha
I actually had to slow down in my 8 as my gf was feeling sick haha
08-19-2013 | 02:41 AM
#166
Bikes are Rotaries
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
From: Kerikeri, NZ
I had a female in a Hyundai Granduer have drag on Sunday in Whangerei and to be fair it got off the line pretty well. I pulled 2 lengths on it to get alongside but let it in to the single lane. Even my wife noticed how serious she was...got to a windy passing lane and t just stayed left! Lol. Childish but fun.
08-19-2013 | 02:45 AM
#167
Un-Registered User
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 3
From: NZ Brahhhhh
I had a female in a Hyundai Granduer have drag on Sunday in Whangerei and to be fair it got off the line pretty well. I pulled 2 lengths on it to get alongside but let it in to the single lane. Even my wife noticed how serious she was...got to a windy passing lane and t just stayed left! Lol. Childish but fun.
08-19-2013 | 05:26 AM
#168
Registered
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
Understood how many problems the UK taxes cause. I don't envy you one jot there.
Scion is a division of Toyota, same as Lexus is. The car sold as the Toyota FT86 everywhere else in the world is sold as the Scion FR-S in the US. Same car, same company, different brand and model name.
Were you aware that the turbo version was actually a pipe dream from fans, and NOT ONCE actually furthered for production by Toyota (who only did the styling for the car) or Subaru (who did all the engineering for the car). Seriously, every single "future turbo" reference ever made was from magazines and fan clubs, and not from the people actually building the car.
So, they didn't "cancel" something that wasn't ever on publicly announced.
The convertible isn't even a sure thing, it's just theorized and suggested at. It's a pure concept at this point, and it shouldn't be any surprise that a concept wouldn't make it to production. Most don't after all.
So no, not only do both points not "say it all", neither of them actually say anything about the current production car!
The car isn't fading, it's still selling quite well.
(US numbers: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10766)
Scion is a division of Toyota, same as Lexus is. The car sold as the Toyota FT86 everywhere else in the world is sold as the Scion FR-S in the US. Same car, same company, different brand and model name.
Were you aware that the turbo version was actually a pipe dream from fans, and NOT ONCE actually furthered for production by Toyota (who only did the styling for the car) or Subaru (who did all the engineering for the car). Seriously, every single "future turbo" reference ever made was from magazines and fan clubs, and not from the people actually building the car.
So, they didn't "cancel" something that wasn't ever on publicly announced.
The convertible isn't even a sure thing, it's just theorized and suggested at. It's a pure concept at this point, and it shouldn't be any surprise that a concept wouldn't make it to production. Most don't after all.
So no, not only do both points not "say it all", neither of them actually say anything about the current production car!
The car isn't fading, it's still selling quite well.
(US numbers: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10766)
Code:
Month BRZ MTD BRZ YTD BRZ ALL FRS MTD FRS YTD FRS ALL May 12 271 271 86 86 Jun 12 818 1089 2684 2770 Jul 12 498 1587 1649 4419 Aug 12 623 2210 1913 6332 Sep 12 508 2718 1133 7465 Oct 12 402 3120 1107 8572 Nov 12 527 3647 1350 9922 Dec 12 497 4144 1495 11417 Jan 13 463 463 4607 1443 1443 12860 Feb 13 420 883 5027 1369 2812 14229 Mar 13 905 1788 5932 1828 4640 16057 Apr 13 812 2600 6744 1629 6269 17686 May 13 679 3279 7423 1937 8206 19623 Jun 13 789 4068 8212 1815 10021 21438 Jul 13 706 4774 8918 1614 11635 23052
Sales over here are poor. 30 toyota sold means 10 BRZ's can be sold. its a poor system over here. Its not selling very well.
08-19-2013 | 03:47 PM
#169
It's been posted by a few shops that the FRS only has 130 RWHP.
Why? The ECU is too sensitive and the car runs hot.
After normal operation the engine heats causes the ECU to drop the power output.
Sure they can get 160 RWHP but it is very short lived. Take it to the track and it won't have a chance.
Why? The ECU is too sensitive and the car runs hot.
After normal operation the engine heats causes the ECU to drop the power output.
Sure they can get 160 RWHP but it is very short lived. Take it to the track and it won't have a chance.
I have heard something like this before...
In all reality though I love that Toyota/Subie got together and made a lightweight RWD sports car... Its what the market was lacking in.
Makes the RX8 competitive once again as it's always been on the lower end of the HP spectrum...
08-19-2013 | 08:06 PM
#170
Registered
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
the BRZ tS was just announced... I think someone counted 36 or so "STi" badges on the car? lol... too bad it's missing the turbo.
Subaru details BRZ tS, stops short of full-on STI - Autoblog
Subaru details BRZ tS, stops short of full-on STI - Autoblog
08-19-2013 | 08:25 PM
#171
the BRZ tS was just announced... I think someone counted 36 or so "STi" badges on the car? lol... too bad it's missing the turbo.
Subaru details BRZ tS, stops short of full-on STI - Autoblog
Subaru details BRZ tS, stops short of full-on STI - Autoblog
08-21-2013 | 08:47 AM
#172
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,036
Likes: 4
From: Colorado
The other interesting thing about Scion is Toyota's drive to drop the number of dealers from 1000 range down to the 300+ range. It just doesn't seem to have enough sales to go around and make it worthwhile to support the network of dealers currently in place in the US. Probably the FRS is helping rather than hurting (does Scion actually sell any other cars?), but unless Toyota turns it into a sports car only franchise, or finds a way to juice up the morbid overall sales /product line, it's likely the scion brand will just fold back into Toyota ( probably a good thing). Without Toyota's distribution network, I'm surprised Subaru was able to sell as many BRZs as they have. Around here I see more FRS/BRZs on the dealer's lots, certainly there doesn't seem to be any rush of them cruising the streets.
Interesting statistics - Who are FRS/BRZ buyers? http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...ubaru-brz.html
Scion Sales number thru the years/months "Nowhere to go but Down?" http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
Interesting statistics - Who are FRS/BRZ buyers? http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...ubaru-brz.html
Scion Sales number thru the years/months "Nowhere to go but Down?" http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
Last edited by Spin9k; 08-21-2013 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Lots of stats added
08-22-2013 | 02:38 AM
#173
for $41,500 you can have your own STi BRZ/FRS
NEWS – THE FACTS ABOUT THE BRZ STi tS VERSION : 7Tune.com
So not worth it same 200hp a BBK and STi badges everywhere I'd rather get a base model and work from there.
NEWS – THE FACTS ABOUT THE BRZ STi tS VERSION : 7Tune.com
So not worth it same 200hp a BBK and STi badges everywhere I'd rather get a base model and work from there.
08-22-2013 | 09:35 AM
#174
Registered
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
for $41,500 you can have your own STi BRZ/FRS
NEWS – THE FACTS ABOUT THE BRZ STi tS VERSION : 7Tune.com
So not worth it same 200hp a BBK and STi badges everywhere I'd rather get a base model and work from there.
NEWS – THE FACTS ABOUT THE BRZ STi tS VERSION : 7Tune.com
So not worth it same 200hp a BBK and STi badges everywhere I'd rather get a base model and work from there.
08-22-2013 | 09:59 AM
#175
V8 Traitor
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 600
Likes: 5
From: Abingdon, Harford County, MD
Interesting statistics - Who are FRS/BRZ buyers? Drive by Numbers - Scion FR-S vs. Subaru BRZ