JeRKy 8 Owner

I think every engine brought in for inspection should recieve a complementary dyno.

otherside

Update: We have performed 11 recalls to date. As expected, no engine failures or cat failures yet. All is well on the Central Coast of CA!!!

New Yorker

The more I think about it, the more I think everyone should relax about getting a new engine. If they replace your Renesis, I'm confident it will be with a good one. The fact that it's "remanufactured" doesn't matter:

1) Mazda doesn't want to go to the time, expense (and bad PR) of replacing your engine only to have to repair/replace it again later due to you getting a "dud".

2) This engine has basically 3 moving parts. Seems like there's far less that can go wrong with it compared to an engine with hundreds of parts.

3) The Renesis has been very reliable—no real problems except flooding (which was not really a function of the engine, itself, so much as poor choice of battery/starter motor/plugs/not-yet-perfected ECU flash, and owner's turning it off too soon). And the current "carbon buildup" problem is purely a function of operating in certain climates/conditions with a not-yet-perfected ECU flash.

4) This is just one case, but when Mazda replaced the engine in my '99 Miata the new one was great—no problems.

6speed8

WOW! are you kidding??

1. Mazda is only extending the warranty for 1 yr or 10k miles, The fact that the car has been out for 3 plus years means the majority of RX-8s probably are at or near the 4 yr 50k mile mark now (when the problem was first admitted). By the time the replacement screws up, the 'extended' waranty will be long gone.

2. Yeah it has 3 moving parts, but the moving parts are NOT what went wrong!

3. If the Renesis is so reliable, why are they replacing them?

4. The Miata engine is a PROVEN reliable engine, perhaps there were SOME bad ones, and you unfortunately got one and was replaced with the usual good one.

Tirminyl

6speed8- You contradict yourself with points 3 and 4. If the Miata engine was a PROVEN and reliable engine, then why did his have to get replaced? You can't have a reliable engine if it actually has issues.

And actually early 99 Miata's suffered machining issues which caused the engine to be replaced.

MrBill

I've been out of the loop for a while and didn't know anything about any of this. The CE light came on a couple of days ago. I figured that the gas cap wasn't on right (it happened to my daughter), but since the light didn't clear, I made an appointment and brought it in today.

I had hoped they would check the code, scold me for not tightening the gas cap enough, and send me on my way.

After an hour or so, the service advisor came out and asked "Have you noticed a loss of power or anything like that?" and mentioned that there was a recall.

My day went downhill from there...

A few hours after they gave me a ride home, I got a call from the service advisor. The catalytic converter was 'marginal'. He said he spoke with with MNAO, who said that they should replace some sensors and repeat the test. (I guess the condition of the sensors prevented them from telling whether I needed a new engine.)

But since the parts wouldn't be in until Monday at the earliest, I got to spend some quality time with the folks at Enterprise. It's PT Cruiser time for me!

I'm not feeling good about this.

New Yorker

No, I'm not kidding.With Mazda graciously volunteering to replace the SMALL percentage of engines that have developed this problem, there really is no need to extend the warranty on everyone's RX-8 a day, let alone a year. Don't you get it—it's a gift. Mazda has a long history of sticking by its cars and its customers. Many Miata engines were replaced on cars that were out of warranty. Why? Because it was the right thing to do.

True. What went wrong—on just a handful of engines—was carbon buildup as a direct result of imperfect ECU programming in a limited set of extreme climate/conditions. Point is, when people express "concern" about getting a remanufactured engine it's because they're worried about physical "hardware" problems—mechanical tolerances, how well the engine will be put together, etc. But those things have never been a problem with the Renesis. The problem—for the few engines that have the problem—is the result of software. And as I said, with only 3 moving parts, it just seems logical that the probability of having mechanical problems in a remanufactured engine should be much lower than with a traditional reciprocating engine and its hundreds of parts.

Wow—that question is so misleading it's almost Republican. You imply that most—if not all—Renesis engines are being replaced—that's how you chose to word it. But that's not true—fact is, only a small percentage of engines will be replaced. And again, the carbon buildup problem is not the result of some shortcoming in the engine itself—as you so cleverly imply. The problem is a result of ECU programming that's not quite perfected for extreme climates/conditions. Calling the Renesis unreliable because of that is like calling an iMac unreliable were it to slow down running some not-quite-perfected beta software. The Renesis is as reliable as most other engines, probably more so.

"Road & Track" just completed their 40k mile 'Long Term' test on their '04 and gave it a reliability rating of excellent. Not poor, not average, but excellent. "Consumer Reports" readers initially rated the 8 "below average" in reliability (due to first year teething/flooding problems), but upgraded their rating to "average" last year. The car is now on their short list of "recommended cars". I know it must come as a big shock to the citizens of RX-8club where the 8 is an embarassing, ill-fated, ill-designed Mazda mega-mistake but, to the vast majority of owners and auto journalists, the 8 is a good, reliable car.

6speed8

Exactly HOW MANY engines are affected?? No one knows for sure right now, least of all YOU!

Mazda is trying to get this done fast and with the LEAST amount of publicity as possible, because even if this ultimately only affects a 'small percentage' the majority of the public will view it as a reliability problem, and that would kill the future of the rotary.

Mazda is not giving us a GIFT. We, the buyers gave Mazda the gift, we road tested the car for THEM.

I am tired of hearing about the ECU programming! Where exactly did Mazda test this car? If it was an ECU programming issue, it seems they should have had the 'bugs' worked out BEFORE selling the car, or at least have seen this issue and had a fix for it before it came to replacing the engine.

Don't get me wrong, I love my RX-8 and I want to see Mazda perfect the rotary engine, But I don't want to be their TESTER. Mazda is VERY lucky that most of us are loyal Mazda owners (there are 4 in my driveway right now).
So please don't try to make me feel thankful to Mazda, they owe me (and all us RX-8 owners) more than we owe them.

max5roadster

^yeah, cause we all know no other car manufacturer does tsbs or recalls. Nope, just mazda. They never get it right.

6speed8

Other manufacturers DO have TSBs and Recalls, just not to the degree of the RX-8 (which is/was supposed to be the flagship of their line-up)

I don't think Mazda DID get it right, but I wish they had. Certainly they did not get the HP 'right', nor the A/C 'right', nor the ECU 'right', nor the Air bag wire harness 'right', nor the starter 'right', nor the spark plugs 'right', nor the lower control arms 'right' heat shields 'right', nor the oil pan baffle 'right' and now 'SOME' engines need replacing. ( I am sure I left out some other 'not rights')

The car does not have auto on/off headlights, telescoping steering wheel, The clutch pedal travel is waaaay too long, the dipstick is a nightmare to get to. for a car that requires the oil to be checked regularly (which does not bother me) it should have had had the oil filler located outside of the engine cover.

Squeaky brakes, and for some really terrible gas mileage. A 400 hp C6 Corvette (which is dimensionally similar in size and weight) gets better fuel economy.

I would have to say, Mazda got more WRONG than right, but I still love the car, I just whish Mazda had done their due diligence BEFORE releasing it for sale. I bet Mazda wishes they had too.

Grizzly8

Mazda certainly rushed the RX8 to the market in order to keep up with the earlier release of the 350Z,etc for a car that was 4 years in gestation it has got its fair share of problems

The bean counters tried to save and cut cost in stupid areas causing bigger problems in the long run eg cheap small battery and starter motors .

The programming of the ECU for the different markets has been a disaster , AND now Mazda is playing catch up , and attempting to resolve some problems .

I tend to agree that the early adaptees have been guinea pigs for Mazda in a trail and error project

Even with all the dissapointments i feel the RX8 FUNDAMENTALY HAS GOT THE MAKINGS OF A GREAT CAR , if only they got it right .

Michael

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

ok guys and girls---listen---please listen----!!!
The rotory is a great piece of work. 3 moving parts as already said. When it 1st came out 150,000 miles was not unusual--now ever since Mazda added the MOP system it has not been as good. Why? Figure it out. They added that system because they thought that most buyers would not want to fool with pre mixing and they were probably right.
The automatic cars (pre 2007) where set up for disaster. How?
Its like this--
1- Mazda told everyone to use 5W20 oil--too light for the temps
2- only 1 oil cooler in the auto's--again oil too hot
3- recommended oil change was 7.5K(for a rotory--come on!)
4- at 7.5 K imagine what that oil looks like being injected into the combustion chamber.
5-the water pump is poorly designed(for all)
6-- the under hood temps are too high(for all)
7- the side port design insists on some high rpm driving to stay clean(harder for the auto's to do)
8- idiot lights for gauges(i understand the marketing reason for this)
9- auto's are under a load all the time which increases the heat output
10- poorly designed oil cooler(s)
this is a great car, but it is a car that needs someone that enjoys keeping it at it's best. it is not a daily driving Toyota(T's are great cars--just a differant type)
keep the faith baby--I know for a fact more h/p (per aftermarket) will be coming for the n/a engine,but it will still need attention.
olddragger

rotor_man

wine wine wine, my horspower feels right, have had a heat shield recoil big deal thats it in over a year. My ac is cool enough. its starter moter does not need to be more powerfull as its started every time. Who wants auto headlights. its a waste of expensive bulbs plus i am a control freak who wants to make the decisions lol. I'll give you the telescopic steering wheel the clutch is fine. the oil filter is easy once you have changed it once you can do it by hand. the dipstick is so far back cause the moter is so far back, ill live with that. gas milage is about what i expected 370ks city 420 highway with giving it some ****

rxeightr

Do you speak of the likes of Cobb & Hymee tuning options, or something else?

Tirminyl

There goes the whining.

6speed8

No Whine, pure facts. I am not sure if the RX-8s sold in New Zealand are quite the same as the ones in the USA.

I am glad you can 'feel' the proper HP, most of us can't, and the fact is, orginally Mazda touted 250, then 247, then 238 (now SAE corrected at 232), but we all know the RX-8 is lucky if it is putting out 220 hp. If you don't have the new starter motor, then you really don't know what you are missing - there is a HUGE diffrence. The A/C does get cold enough, but it takes a long time, and is set (with trickery from a Mazda TSB) to come on recirculate every time the car is started. Clearly Mazda RECOGNIZED a problem, perhaps they know a bit more about the RX-8 than you. Drive a Miata (which is famous for its clutch and shifter), then get into an RX-8. The clutch throw is TWICE as long- WHY? The dipstick could have been made LONGER and perhaps out of the way of the entaglement of where it is! The oild filler could have had a cutout on the engine cover! Per instructions 'Check oil after five minutes of shutting engine'. Did ANYOE at Mazda do this with their bare hands? Probably not.


My RX-8 also had to have the tailights replaced due to condensation, and the headlights replaced due to fogging. The latch on the console lid broke, the A/C dial fell off. How many years have they been making light lenses. latches and dials and they couldn't even get them right. All of the TSBs, recalls and fixes required MY TIME to go to the dealer to get this work done.

Mazda does not deserve praise, the dealers that have had to perform (and are still performing) this work are the true heros here.

missinmahseven

Um, oldragger, no disprespect intended, but do you have sources for all these items?

Even mazda's first wankel had oil injection. I'm pretty sure NSUs did as well. Not like ours, no -- but they ALL dribble oil into the fire chamber to cool and lube. OUrs is not the first. The only wankel I know of that doesn't is the .30 OS/Graupner, and *that* one runs nitromethane with castor mixed in.

Waterpump badly designed? WTF you get that from?

Underhood temps too high? I can tell this is your first rotary. They all run hot man. Every single one of 'em, from any maker, from any vintage. My FB, since it had no under-hood "padding" or thermal blanket, steamed rain right off the hood. FWIW, my miata did that too, and SHE was a boinger. (Again, no thermal blanket to keep weight down.) ROtaries run hotter than boingers. And they're *designed* to do so.

Poor oil coolers? Piffle. The 12A had a tiny oilcooler under the oilfilter, and ran fine. The 13B had one large oil cooler (which had a tendency to break at the fittings, at least in the FB/GSL-SE), and the Renesis in MT has two. Put those two coolers together, and they have roughly the same area as the large one the 13B FB had. Putting only ONE cooler on the AT cars, I agree, that was boneheaded -- but the MT cars have two. The one oil cooler on AT may still be adequate, it has more area than the under-filter 12A one!

The sideports *ARE* what Wankel wanted, but he couldn't do it with carburators and oils and gasoline qualities he had around when he was doing this. Peripheral ports are lousy, I'll take sideports anyday (just like I'll take a penta-roof cylinder head with 2 cams vs. the retarded pushrod setup the US is so in love with.)

After being around rotaries most my life, I find the Renesis to be a real honey of a motor. THey screwed up the controller's programming. That is what really happened. Not a flawed car, not a flawed design, but a flawed bit of code, brought on by lord knows what (****-like emissions regulations, anyone?)

So chill, man. Have a beer or something. This car is not fundamentally flawed, there's nothing wrong with the waterpump, there's nothing wrong with the MOP, there's nothing wrong with the coolers, and it DOES NOT RUN TOO HOT. It runs as hot as any other wankel. In fact, I'd wager underhood temps are a little cooler than an FD, but right on target with a NA 13B or 12A.

Rotaries demand you throw away pretty much all you know about engines right out the window, olddragger. Think more like a jet, and less of a piston. Then it'll make sense. It's the bastard child of a turbine and a boinger, has traits of both.

puch96

I went to Sesi Mazda in Ypsilanti, Michigan yesterday hoping to get my recall done (even though I did not receive the recall letter yet)

I just went in in the morning without appointment, dropped the car off, they gave me a Mazda 6 to drive for the day.

1) They performed the recall (no questions asked)
2) Checked cat. converter - OK
3) Replaced leading spark plugs
4) Update PCM.
While the car was in the shop, I also asked for an oil change

The following are the things that they didn't do.
1) They did not wash my car (inside nor outside)
2) They did not top of the gas
3) They did not inform me that due to the PCM update, the car might consume more oil than before (I believe this was stated in the service procedure documents somewhere)...


PS> I asked if mine was the first vehicle at the service for the recall .... they said that there were two cars before me - all checked out OK>

I liked the fact that at least they took my car in without appointment and that they knew all about the recall. What I didn't like was that they did not provide with 100% cutomer service by failing to wash the vehicle and top of the gas as it was intructed by MNAO.

That's about it.....

New Yorker

Sorry that your 8 has problems, 6speed8—bummer! I'm lucky—I got the 8 that was praised, loved and raved about—time and time again—in Road & Track, Sports Car International, Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, Automobile, Evo, Top Gear and virtually every other automotive journal on the planet. (Gosh, that Mazda company must've put a lot of money aside to pay off all those writers!)

msrecant

6speed8,

The sad thing is that you do have basically the same RX-8 as we do in the states in that all the problems you list I, and many other people, have had. As I stated earlier in this thread:

I understand your frustration coming from a Miata. I bought my Miata used, drove it for 9 years with nothing needed except regular maintenance, and sold it (to buy the RX-8) to a friend who is currently using it for his daily drive. My First-gen RX-7 was the same, bought it new and ran it for 92K miles with nothing but routine maintenance. Unfortunately, they didn't quite dot the Is and cross the Ts on the RX-8.

6speed8

It's not that MY 8 has problems, it's a lot of 8s have had similar issues with these things. The RX-8 could have been a GREAT car if Mazda had taken a little more time and got it all right. I love my RX-8, but only a fool would not admit it has flaws, and some are just poor design from the get-go.

Tell me your dipstick is easy to get at. Tell me you don't have to remove the engine cover to add oil (on other Mazda cars that don't burn oil, the filler is exposed!) Tell me you never had to have a flash done or any of the other dozen TSBs. Have you really checked your lights? Pehaps they have issues you haven't noticed. I think you are overlooking or choosing to forget these issues and substituting praise from auto writers. YES the car is praise-worthy, especially from a writer who does not own it, but rather uses it for a short time.

I am just saying it could have been a BETTER car if only Mazda had done it right!

6speed8

Actually My car previous to the 8 was a 2000 Celica GT-S (prior to that it was all Mazda cars for ten years)

As like the RX-8, the Celica was a first year design, and let me say IT had issues as well, not nearly as much as the RX-8, but it had issues, but Toyota had MOST of them corrected by the 3rd year. And the car definitely made the correct HP.

No brake squeal, very little dust, Porsche territory braking distance AND I had the original pads/rotors on the front at trade in with 68K miles. I had to have my RX-8 brakes replaced at 27K miles driving the exact same route as I did with the Celica. I could check the oil whenever AND wihout burning my hands. Never had to add any, but if I did it would have been easy, the filler was right there.
Light lens, dials and latches all worked fine and lasted. Because I had the TSBs performed, the Celica spent a fair amount of time at the dealer. That's when I made the decision to go BACK to Mazda (since my 3 previous Mazdas had absoulutely NO ISSUES at all, save for a misaligned headlight!)

My GF has a 2000 Miata, man what a great little car that is!

I guess I (and others here) did expect too much from Mazda with the RX-8, well guess what? I still do, I want it PERFECT! Well, maybe a bit closer to perfect than it is now - lol

Tirminyl

There is no such thing as a perfect car. Get over it. Im pretty sure lots of Toyota owners were thinking theirs were perfect until their engine had to be replaced.

And for someone claiming facts sure has their information wrong. Mazda never claimed 250. They targeted 250. New SAE ratings, well guess what, Mazda wasn't the only manufacturer to be effected. Are you going to go over to the Acura forums and bitch that the TL is now rated at less than 270hp? Are you going to go to the Vette forums and bitch that the engine actually produces 505hp since Chevy claimed 500hp?

msrecant

I was under the same incorrect impression until someone pointed me to the original 2004 RX-8 Sales brochure from Summer 2003 (which I still have) that shows the MT rated at 250 HP.

BunnyGirl

I have that brochure somewhere still, I think. I'll have to look for it and see. I also thought 250 was a target number but not the actual stated when it came out, which was a little less.