New-gen Mazda rotary nears
04-20-2010, 11:13 PM
#127
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I don't think fuel economy is a deal breaker with a sports car but if you have a choice between 2 different performance vehicles with similar capabilities but one gets 5mpg+ more than the other which one are you going to choose?
04-21-2010, 01:00 AM
#129
If the RX8 would have been a two seater I honestly believe sales would have been stronger because the media put it up against all sorts of cars and always scolded it on mpg and power. If it would have been in a strickly sports car catergory those rants would have diminished and it would have picked up ground on the Z early on by the reviews and would have even given Porsche entry level owners another option to consider.
To me, Mazda miscalculated why people buy sports cars. They buy them to escape all the conforming, boring, and mundate aspects of life. You can't do that with the RX8 because those backseats and quasi doors won't let you forget it.
I wish the best for Mazda but I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling they are going to make another real sports car for the consumer. I love my RX8 but when the time comes for another sports car in a few years Mazda more than likely won't even make the short list.
To me, Mazda miscalculated why people buy sports cars. They buy them to escape all the conforming, boring, and mundate aspects of life. You can't do that with the RX8 because those backseats and quasi doors won't let you forget it.
I wish the best for Mazda but I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling they are going to make another real sports car for the consumer. I love my RX8 but when the time comes for another sports car in a few years Mazda more than likely won't even make the short list.
04-21-2010, 04:26 AM
#130
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I have to disagree.
Why would you buy a 2 seater RX-8 if you can get a Z with 80bhp more - its a no brainer.
M3 is a 4 seater - I wouldn't mind.
Why would you buy a 2 seater RX-8 if you can get a Z with 80bhp more - its a no brainer.
M3 is a 4 seater - I wouldn't mind.
04-21-2010, 05:03 AM
#132
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Though such lovely anecdotes make for wonderful bed-time stories, the vast majority of RX-8 owners could never get that kind of mileage no matter what they do and you know it.
But this does highlight why discussions like this one take the turn that they inevitably do: We let emotion and pride dictate our reason.
But this does highlight why discussions like this one take the turn that they inevitably do: We let emotion and pride dictate our reason.
04-21-2010, 08:48 AM
#133
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Personally, I bought my RX8 because it had a rotary engine... not in spite of the fact that it had one. I would not have bought a piston powered 8.
Every day on my bus ride to school as a kid I'd see an FB RX7 and I was determined from that day on that I would own a rotary... so as soon as I had the means, I made it happen.
Every day on my bus ride to school as a kid I'd see an FB RX7 and I was determined from that day on that I would own a rotary... so as soon as I had the means, I made it happen.
04-21-2010, 09:18 AM
#134
the renesis has a rep of being too fickle to be a engine for the general public that do not even like checking their oil. The number of enthusiests that know about the engine and how to run it, how to make it into what they want, are not enough to substain production. Its simple math.
I am very cautiously optomistic like Paul at Mazmart, but down deep i am really going to be surprised if production continues. I hope I am wrong.
Wouldnt it be cool if just for the hell of it mazda released a few FI rx8's??? test the waters so to speak?
I am very cautiously optomistic like Paul at Mazmart, but down deep i am really going to be surprised if production continues. I hope I am wrong.
Wouldnt it be cool if just for the hell of it mazda released a few FI rx8's??? test the waters so to speak?
04-21-2010, 09:39 AM
#135
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the renesis has a rep of being too fickle to be a engine for the general public that do not even like checking their oil. The number of enthusiests that know about the engine and how to run it, how to make it into what they want, are not enough to substain production. Its simple math.
I am very cautiously optomistic like Paul at Mazmart, but down deep i am really going to be surprised if production continues. I hope I am wrong.
Wouldnt it be cool if just for the hell of it mazda released a few FI rx8's??? test the waters so to speak?
I am very cautiously optomistic like Paul at Mazmart, but down deep i am really going to be surprised if production continues. I hope I am wrong.
Wouldnt it be cool if just for the hell of it mazda released a few FI rx8's??? test the waters so to speak?
04-21-2010, 10:34 AM
#140
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I am amazed...who and the HELL cares about FUEL Economy when buying a SPORTS CAR...ANY SPORTS CAR??..
FFS, I get a consistent 500 KMS a Tank or 20MPG...I am happy with that, I rev her hard most of the time.
Journalists ALWAYS complain about the RX-8's economy, but when they road test a Porsche they say NOTHING about it's MPG..!!
Going back a few pages, what was inexcusable Mazda with the Renesis 1 in not having an Oil Supply for the middle of the Apex Seals, like they have done with EVERY other 13B RX-7 since Direct Oil Lubrication...a Huge error.
Charlie, I don't believe Mazda have made any money out of the RX-8 after all the engine rebuilds, what $5K per engine?..
I will say this again, IMO I believe Mazda lost a HUGE opportunity to throw a Rotary into the NC MX-5, even just for a limited few years, the tooling and overall cost would be negligible.
IMO it would not have hurt the RX-8's sales as an RX-5 would cater for those who want 2 seats in a lightweight convertible.
FFS, I get a consistent 500 KMS a Tank or 20MPG...I am happy with that, I rev her hard most of the time.
Journalists ALWAYS complain about the RX-8's economy, but when they road test a Porsche they say NOTHING about it's MPG..!!
Going back a few pages, what was inexcusable Mazda with the Renesis 1 in not having an Oil Supply for the middle of the Apex Seals, like they have done with EVERY other 13B RX-7 since Direct Oil Lubrication...a Huge error.
Charlie, I don't believe Mazda have made any money out of the RX-8 after all the engine rebuilds, what $5K per engine?..
I will say this again, IMO I believe Mazda lost a HUGE opportunity to throw a Rotary into the NC MX-5, even just for a limited few years, the tooling and overall cost would be negligible.
IMO it would not have hurt the RX-8's sales as an RX-5 would cater for those who want 2 seats in a lightweight convertible.
Part of me thinks that the only reason that MPG comes into consideration when people are reviewing this SPORTS CAR, is because it's probably the most practical sports car you can get (4 doors, 4 seats, above average trunk space). That being said, I have always been irritated at journalists and others bemoaning the RX-8 for having "terrible fuel economy" or "drinks gas and oil like a drunkard in an open bar". I mean seriously. A healthy 8 is in the low 20s (face it, they only ever really care about highway mileage), which beats 90% of SUVs out there, and a fair number of sports cars too. And every car it doesn't beat doesn't even have the MPG mentioned in the review.
I am also a firm believer that they could release an MX-5 variant with a Renesis (series 2 obviously), without hurting the normal MX-5 sales, and still have an instant winner on their hands with no additional tooling costs. It's practically a bolt on for Mazda (a bit more complicated after market), and you instantly have the same power to weight ratio that you get with an FI 8 putting out 280hp. Without the reliability concerns of FI. I'd lay money that the mileage that every hypocritical naysayer thinks they care about would improve as well. Probably high 20s.
What would you take anyway? 3000lb 300hp 30mpg or 2000lb 200hp 20mpg?
I'd take the 2's
I'm not everyone, but then, fortunately, I don't need to be.
04-21-2010, 10:54 AM
#142
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I agree that the rotary is on its last legs. However, its still in its infancy in terms of hours of research and development as compared to piston engines. It's not to say that it can't reach ULEV status, improved reliability or reduced price - it just won't happen fast enough nor is there enough interest (cost/benefit wise) to make it happen since its time has passed and image tainted. However, the rotary is Mazda's identity and I doubt they would totally cease production of the engine. It would probably make sense for them to continue to offer it as an optional engine for a new sports car. That way, everyone wins.
04-21-2010, 11:02 AM
#143
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Heck, alteratively, make a 20B GT-R competitor, limited edition, super-car. Then the fuel mileage, the high maintenance requirements, and the halo car image are justified and preserved.
Or do what RIWWP said - make a super light MX-5 variant. Either direction would work, in my opinion.
Or do what RIWWP said - make a super light MX-5 variant. Either direction would work, in my opinion.
04-21-2010, 11:47 AM
#146
16x-based-3-rotor with ceramic seals and presumably heavy on the cats to pass emissions and lots of aluminum and perhaps carbon fiber to save weight and also help with emissions, aside from performance measures 500+whp should be doable, $100K for sure, 2-door 2-seat halo car. And damn would it sound amazing...
04-21-2010, 11:50 AM
#147
I think in 6th the engine should not rev 4000 when you're driving 80 mph or 3750 when you are doing 75. It should be way less than that. Then it could be more (fuel)efficient at cruising speeds.
The 5th gear should pretty much be like the current 6th is or something like that.
The 5th gear should pretty much be like the current 6th is or something like that.
04-21-2010, 12:00 PM
#148
I think in 6th the engine should not rev 4000 when you're driving 80 mph or 3750 when you are doing 75. It should be way less than that. Then it could be more (fuel)efficient at cruising speeds.
The 5th gear should pretty much be like the current 6th is or something like that.
The 5th gear should pretty much be like the current 6th is or something like that.
Spinning the motor faster isn't necessarily using more fuel. It is the balance between revs and load. Just look at the MAF numbers at a given cruise scenario to decide how to get better mileage.
At 75 MPH, 60g/sec is 60 g/sec. It doesn't matter what gear you are in.
04-21-2010, 12:04 PM
#149
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Agreed. A project like toyota's LFA (though I hold that car on a technological pedestal so i'm not saying it'd be at *that* level . Although mazda is not toyota with those resources and budget. (and I'm clearly just talking here...making extrapolations from the current 20B)
16x-based-3-rotor with ceramic seals and presumably heavy on the cats to pass emissions and lots of aluminum and perhaps carbon fiber to save weight and also help with emissions, aside from performance measures 500+whp should be doable, $100K for sure, 2-door 2-seat halo car. And damn would it sound amazing...
16x-based-3-rotor with ceramic seals and presumably heavy on the cats to pass emissions and lots of aluminum and perhaps carbon fiber to save weight and also help with emissions, aside from performance measures 500+whp should be doable, $100K for sure, 2-door 2-seat halo car. And damn would it sound amazing...
$100k 3 or 4 rotor "halo" car? Yeah, I'll be over on the Porsche lot, thanks...
04-21-2010, 12:15 PM
#150
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^so.. what do you want then? The handling? The engine?
What's wrong with a 100k Mazda? I was going to get a GT-R for my mid-life crisis, so if Mazda comes out with a proper damn quick rotary super-car, I would go for it. Are you saying that rotary enthusiasts, the ones that dump 5-15k for a turbo kit, the ones that dump 20-30k for a 20b kit, would not go for a halo car from Mazda that features their beloved rotary?
If you got the RX-8 primarily for the handling, then good for you! I'm sure Mazda can continue making sporty cars that handle great without the rotary.
What's wrong with a 100k Mazda? I was going to get a GT-R for my mid-life crisis, so if Mazda comes out with a proper damn quick rotary super-car, I would go for it. Are you saying that rotary enthusiasts, the ones that dump 5-15k for a turbo kit, the ones that dump 20-30k for a 20b kit, would not go for a halo car from Mazda that features their beloved rotary?
If you got the RX-8 primarily for the handling, then good for you! I'm sure Mazda can continue making sporty cars that handle great without the rotary.