Preliminary Specs for 2009 RX-8.
12-02-2007, 01:15 PM
#76
RX-8 = Japanese MG
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If I were in charge of Mazda, I would take the decision to make an RX-8 that sells like hotcakes instead of the current one that has to be cleared off dealer's lots with deep, deep discounts.
Mazda knows how to turbocharge a rotary, and it would make an entire universe of difference in how many units/year they sell if they would just do it.
****** business decisions like this are why Mazda remains a very small company.
Mazda knows how to turbocharge a rotary, and it would make an entire universe of difference in how many units/year they sell if they would just do it.
****** business decisions like this are why Mazda remains a very small company.
The thing you've got to keep in mind is that Mazda is a very small company without the resources of say, Toyota or Honda. There is only so much they can devote to the rotary, in terms of both R&D and production. So, given the choice between improving the 13B or developing the 16X, they have gone with the 16X.
Of course I want the 8 to have more power/torque/fuel economy, but I would make the same choice if I were in charge of Mazda.
Of course I want the 8 to have more power/torque/fuel economy, but I would make the same choice if I were in charge of Mazda.
12-02-2007, 03:07 PM
#77
Grand Chancellor
Even a shadetree mechanic can slap a turbo on an engine. It's another matter to make it run reliably.....
12-02-2007, 03:12 PM
#78
road warrior
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Making the RX-8 sell like hotcakes is not high on Mazda's list of priorities. As much as we hate to admit it, the rotary engine is now a hobby for Mazda. Their real business is to earn money and possibly the worst way to earn money and best way to lose money in the automaking business is through sports cars. If Mazda were to concentrate on the RX-8 it would probably lead them to lose money, which does a whole lot of harm to the rotary's perception as a dead end. As it is, we should be happy that Mazda, which is not a full line manufacturer, has two dedicated sports cars in their lineup and is not thinking of killing any. Most brand only have one (Chevy, Honda, Ford...) or none at all (Toyota, Pontiac...).
12-02-2007, 03:55 PM
#79
Back in the day...
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I talked to the owner of Hayward mazda and he was saying that, Mazda's new plan is sports cars and wagon/mid-suv's. Weather it's true or not, mazda's concept line-up shows some pretty interesting direction on Mazda.
12-02-2007, 08:11 PM
#80
Super Moderator
I do not know what you guys think, but in Australia (where we have one on the largest range of manufacturers/brands on the planet) there is still nothing that comes close to the RX-8 in value for the dollar, looks, equipment, handling, finish and most importantly FUN!
12-03-2007, 01:52 AM
#83
Super Moderator
how boring
12-03-2007, 02:31 PM
#84
Rx8_4eVeR
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^I know, lame. Most people are incapable of appreciating a good looking, lightweight sports car even if it's right under their nose.
Totally agree with you here! 
still nothing that comes close to the RX-8 in value for the dollar, looks, equipment, handling, finish and most importantly FUN!
12-04-2007, 12:21 AM
#85
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12-04-2007, 02:20 AM
#86
As it is, since Mazdaspeed has proved worthless for the RX-8. Mazda could contract out to Pettit or some other Pro tuner shop or just endorse somebody else's kit. Like how the AEM CAI became the Mazdaspeed CAI...
All the Mazaspeed people have to do is sit around looking dumb and offer support to the real tuners. Hell, Pettit even has the ECU flash ready, so even less work for lazy Mazdaspeed. I say go supercharger, as its easier to slap them on.
Mazda can just slap on the Mazdaspeed logo and an extra $1,000 bucks or so. Create some weird limited warranty and let it go.... When some customer says where is my 300HP RX-8, the Mazda dealers just shows them the Mazdaspeed Supercharger by Pettit.
I swear, I truly think that would do more for Mazda than a new color and new CD player. Mazda's street rep has been damaged by allowing pickup tucks and it's own hatchback outrun its flagship sport's car. You should see some of the track competitions in Japan, where the RX-8 gets ripped on long straights (however we all know its a monster on turns). Everybody is like, "what the hell is wrong with Mazda. 50 more HP, how hard could that be?". In 2009, it will be, "For the love of god, how in they hell could you not R&D at least 50 more HP when the car came out in 2003???".
The rotary engine is Mazda's red-headed step-child, so even if they figured out an in-house kit, they would still be standoff-ish for fear of failure or problems. This way Mazda at least get its racer rep back.
All the Mazaspeed people have to do is sit around looking dumb and offer support to the real tuners. Hell, Pettit even has the ECU flash ready, so even less work for lazy Mazdaspeed. I say go supercharger, as its easier to slap them on.
Mazda can just slap on the Mazdaspeed logo and an extra $1,000 bucks or so. Create some weird limited warranty and let it go.... When some customer says where is my 300HP RX-8, the Mazda dealers just shows them the Mazdaspeed Supercharger by Pettit.
I swear, I truly think that would do more for Mazda than a new color and new CD player. Mazda's street rep has been damaged by allowing pickup tucks and it's own hatchback outrun its flagship sport's car. You should see some of the track competitions in Japan, where the RX-8 gets ripped on long straights (however we all know its a monster on turns). Everybody is like, "what the hell is wrong with Mazda. 50 more HP, how hard could that be?". In 2009, it will be, "For the love of god, how in they hell could you not R&D at least 50 more HP when the car came out in 2003???".
The rotary engine is Mazda's red-headed step-child, so even if they figured out an in-house kit, they would still be standoff-ish for fear of failure or problems. This way Mazda at least get its racer rep back.
12-04-2007, 02:39 AM
#87
As it is, since Mazdaspeed has proved worthless for the RX-8. Mazda could contract out to Pettit or some other Pro tuner shop or just endorse somebody else's kit. Like how the AEM CAI became the Mazdaspeed CAI...
All the Mazaspeed people have to do is sit around looking dumb and offer support to the real tuners. Hell, Pettit even has the ECU flash ready, so even less work for lazy Mazdaspeed. I say go supercharger, as its easier to slap them on.
Mazda can just slap on the Mazdaspeed logo and an extra $1,000 bucks or so. Create some weird limited warranty and let it go.... When some customer says where is my 300HP RX-8, the Mazda dealers just shows them the Mazdaspeed Supercharger by Pettit.
I swear, I truly think that would do more for Mazda than a new color and new CD player. Mazda's street rep has been damaged by allowing pickup tucks and it's own hatchback outrun its flagship sport's car. You should see some of the track competitions in Japan, where the RX-8 gets ripped on long straights (however we all know its a monster on turns). Everybody is like, "what the hell is wrong with Mazda. 50 more HP, how hard could that be?". In 2009, it will be, "For the love of god, how in they hell could you not R&D at least 50 more HP when the car came out in 2003???".
The rotary engine is Mazda's red-headed step-child, so even if they figured out an in-house kit, they would still be standoff-ish for fear of failure or problems. This way Mazda at least get its racer rep back.
All the Mazaspeed people have to do is sit around looking dumb and offer support to the real tuners. Hell, Pettit even has the ECU flash ready, so even less work for lazy Mazdaspeed. I say go supercharger, as its easier to slap them on.
Mazda can just slap on the Mazdaspeed logo and an extra $1,000 bucks or so. Create some weird limited warranty and let it go.... When some customer says where is my 300HP RX-8, the Mazda dealers just shows them the Mazdaspeed Supercharger by Pettit.
I swear, I truly think that would do more for Mazda than a new color and new CD player. Mazda's street rep has been damaged by allowing pickup tucks and it's own hatchback outrun its flagship sport's car. You should see some of the track competitions in Japan, where the RX-8 gets ripped on long straights (however we all know its a monster on turns). Everybody is like, "what the hell is wrong with Mazda. 50 more HP, how hard could that be?". In 2009, it will be, "For the love of god, how in they hell could you not R&D at least 50 more HP when the car came out in 2003???".
The rotary engine is Mazda's red-headed step-child, so even if they figured out an in-house kit, they would still be standoff-ish for fear of failure or problems. This way Mazda at least get its racer rep back.
12-04-2007, 09:08 AM
#88
I've come to think of the 8 as kind of an "intelligence test" of car people—the smarter you are about cars, the more you appreciate it. Those who really understand and appreciate what makes a sports car great—like the writers at Automobile, Evo, Sports Car International, Car and Driver and Jeremy Clarkson, for example—"get" the 8, and really like it—despite its lower torque and hp (which, I assume, they're aware of).
So… the fact that the 8 barely sells here in the land of Fox News, intelligent design, dittoheads, pre-game prayer huddles and "American Idol" should, ahem… hardly come as a surprise to anyone.
Bacon Double Homestyle Melt, anyone?
So… the fact that the 8 barely sells here in the land of Fox News, intelligent design, dittoheads, pre-game prayer huddles and "American Idol" should, ahem… hardly come as a surprise to anyone.
Bacon Double Homestyle Melt, anyone?
Last edited by New Yorker; 12-04-2007 at 10:02 AM.
12-04-2007, 01:11 PM
#89
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12-04-2007, 02:30 PM
#91
RX-8 = Japanese MG
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Yeah, well, here in the SF Bay area we have one of the highest average education and IQ scores in the world, yet Mazda dealers can't get anyone to buy RX-8s without massively discounting them.
'Good handling, hot looking car' versus 'ugly, 1/4 mile queen that sucks in the twisties' is a false choice. There are plenty of cars that look good, go fast in a straight line AND handle well...they also get much better gas mileage than the RX-8.
Mazda chose not to make the RX-8 competitive with other cars in its class, and the market is punishing them for that bad decision.
On the last point, the ****** gas mileage, too much of gasoline's chemical energy is being converted to thermal energy versus mechanical energy, hence the lack of torque/horsepower per unit fuel consumed. What elevates this to tragic dimensions is that said thermal energy means the exhaust has higher enthalpy, which makes the Renesis ideal for turbocharging.
So, instead of drawing upon their many, many years of experience with turbocharging rotary engines, Mazda chose instead to let all that enthalpy go to waste.
Oh, and for the record, as a patriotic American, I wholly support those who watch Fox News, subscribe to the myth of intelligent design, defend the needless mediocrity of the RX-8, etc., even though I do not share their beliefs.
'Good handling, hot looking car' versus 'ugly, 1/4 mile queen that sucks in the twisties' is a false choice. There are plenty of cars that look good, go fast in a straight line AND handle well...they also get much better gas mileage than the RX-8.
Mazda chose not to make the RX-8 competitive with other cars in its class, and the market is punishing them for that bad decision.
On the last point, the ****** gas mileage, too much of gasoline's chemical energy is being converted to thermal energy versus mechanical energy, hence the lack of torque/horsepower per unit fuel consumed. What elevates this to tragic dimensions is that said thermal energy means the exhaust has higher enthalpy, which makes the Renesis ideal for turbocharging.
So, instead of drawing upon their many, many years of experience with turbocharging rotary engines, Mazda chose instead to let all that enthalpy go to waste.
Oh, and for the record, as a patriotic American, I wholly support those who watch Fox News, subscribe to the myth of intelligent design, defend the needless mediocrity of the RX-8, etc., even though I do not share their beliefs.
I've come to think of the 8 as kind of an "intelligence test" of car people—the smarter you are about cars, the more you appreciate it. Those who really understand and appreciate what makes a sports car great—like the writers at Automobile, Evo, Sports Car International, Car and Driver and Jeremy Clarkson, for example—"get" the 8, and really like it—despite its lower torque and hp (which, I assume, they're aware of).
So… the fact that the 8 barely sells here in the land of Fox News, intelligent design, dittoheads, pre-game prayer huddles and "American Idol" should, ahem… hardly come as a surprise to anyone.
Bacon Double Homestyle Melt, anyone?
So… the fact that the 8 barely sells here in the land of Fox News, intelligent design, dittoheads, pre-game prayer huddles and "American Idol" should, ahem… hardly come as a surprise to anyone.
Bacon Double Homestyle Melt, anyone?
Last edited by SlideWayz; 12-04-2007 at 02:40 PM.
12-04-2007, 02:57 PM
#92
PoloRican Rotary
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12-04-2007, 06:58 PM
#93
Registered User
Having been on this board for about 5 years now, here are my two cents.
The draconian emission laws (chiefly the EPA Tier II regulations that debuted for model year 2004 cars) have stifled what could have been a really nice rotary engine. Not only do current US emission laws require new cars to have ultra-super-low-almost-unmeasurable emissions, cars have to maintain those levels for the life of the car (120,000 miles IIRC). This has led to all sorts of problems from day one. Under wide open throttle, the car has to run rich to preserve the catalytic converter which hurts power and full efficiency - all of the ECU flashes have tinkered with this fine line.
I bring this up in this thread because people are blaming the Mazda engineers or marketing folks, but I think their hands are tied. They can take the brute force method and just make the rotary engine bigger but what's that going to do to the already poor fuel economy? (Also by law, Mazda has to maintain a certain MPG for their fleet average.) Or, they could try and add a turbo or supercharger, but that is just going to make the emissions and CAT preservation even more difficult.
Instead of getting clunkers off the road, our government has created extremely difficult emission standards to meet. (A ten year old car polutes about ten times more than a new car and twenty year old car pollutes about 100 times more.) Not mention the standards aren't written with a rotary in mind. (This is also why some of the super efficient euro diesels haven't made it to states either.) One of the Japanese Mazda execs stated specifically that these emission laws have hampered future rotary development.
I'm sad to say it but I think the rotary is dead. And while it won "engine of the year" in 2003, I don't think any manufacturer wants to touch it now. The 13B will live on in the aftermarket modification world, but you can forget any stock improvements. The owner is in a better legal position to modify the car to make more power than Mazda is.
-Mr. Wigggles
The draconian emission laws (chiefly the EPA Tier II regulations that debuted for model year 2004 cars) have stifled what could have been a really nice rotary engine. Not only do current US emission laws require new cars to have ultra-super-low-almost-unmeasurable emissions, cars have to maintain those levels for the life of the car (120,000 miles IIRC). This has led to all sorts of problems from day one. Under wide open throttle, the car has to run rich to preserve the catalytic converter which hurts power and full efficiency - all of the ECU flashes have tinkered with this fine line.
I bring this up in this thread because people are blaming the Mazda engineers or marketing folks, but I think their hands are tied. They can take the brute force method and just make the rotary engine bigger but what's that going to do to the already poor fuel economy? (Also by law, Mazda has to maintain a certain MPG for their fleet average.) Or, they could try and add a turbo or supercharger, but that is just going to make the emissions and CAT preservation even more difficult.
Instead of getting clunkers off the road, our government has created extremely difficult emission standards to meet. (A ten year old car polutes about ten times more than a new car and twenty year old car pollutes about 100 times more.) Not mention the standards aren't written with a rotary in mind. (This is also why some of the super efficient euro diesels haven't made it to states either.) One of the Japanese Mazda execs stated specifically that these emission laws have hampered future rotary development.
I'm sad to say it but I think the rotary is dead. And while it won "engine of the year" in 2003, I don't think any manufacturer wants to touch it now. The 13B will live on in the aftermarket modification world, but you can forget any stock improvements. The owner is in a better legal position to modify the car to make more power than Mazda is.
-Mr. Wigggles
Last edited by MrWigggles; 12-04-2007 at 07:08 PM.
12-04-2007, 07:38 PM
#94
Super Moderator
^^
While you make some interesting points- many I agree with, I am also pessimistic for the future of the Rotary.
Its future IMO is a Hydro/Gas hybrid so it will pass emission regulations.
I know I will get "flamed" here but again I can not see a next gen RX-8 happening.
Why, because the existing 13B Rennie will not have the HP you guys and the US motoring public want, put it in a much lighter body..then maybe.
There is no certainty that the 1.6 16X will make it into production unless a breakthrough happens in the next few years as Mazda can not keep the existing 8 unchanged till 2013 or another 5 years.
Emission IS the standout problem here, then gas mileage.
Will there be a market in 5 years for gas guzzlers.
PLEASE guys I want the Rotary to continue but I just can not see where Mazda are going to make the improvements that the motoring public will demand.
While you make some interesting points- many I agree with, I am also pessimistic for the future of the Rotary.
Its future IMO is a Hydro/Gas hybrid so it will pass emission regulations.
I know I will get "flamed" here but again I can not see a next gen RX-8 happening.
Why, because the existing 13B Rennie will not have the HP you guys and the US motoring public want, put it in a much lighter body..then maybe.
There is no certainty that the 1.6 16X will make it into production unless a breakthrough happens in the next few years as Mazda can not keep the existing 8 unchanged till 2013 or another 5 years.
Emission IS the standout problem here, then gas mileage.
Will there be a market in 5 years for gas guzzlers.
PLEASE guys I want the Rotary to continue but I just can not see where Mazda are going to make the improvements that the motoring public will demand.
12-04-2007, 07:44 PM
#95
Super Moderator
Put it this way..Do you guys thing a Next Gen RX-8 in 2011 with a 13B NA Renesis will sell sufficient numbers to justify production?
01-29-2008, 02:59 PM
#96
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RX8 In Bangkok
I just came across this positng. I am also in Bangkok and want to purchase a new RX8. can you provide details of the importer so i can contact them_ I would be most appreciative.
Hi all,
I can confirm what ASH8 and swiftboy have been saying. I live in Bangkok and here we order the Japanese spec RX8 directly through an importer. I just placed my order last week and just yesterday my dealer rang up and told me that the order has been cancelled due to production line stop.
He has confirmed that production will resume again in Feb 08. At present there is no information about any potential exterior/interior changes, all I was told is that there is a small price hike (around 150,000 Yen) and some interior enhancements, particularly with the Navigation system.
Hopefully they will be releasing some more information soon, I have already placed my order for the new production cycle, although I'm still very keen to know the full extent of changes....
I can confirm what ASH8 and swiftboy have been saying. I live in Bangkok and here we order the Japanese spec RX8 directly through an importer. I just placed my order last week and just yesterday my dealer rang up and told me that the order has been cancelled due to production line stop.
He has confirmed that production will resume again in Feb 08. At present there is no information about any potential exterior/interior changes, all I was told is that there is a small price hike (around 150,000 Yen) and some interior enhancements, particularly with the Navigation system.
Hopefully they will be releasing some more information soon, I have already placed my order for the new production cycle, although I'm still very keen to know the full extent of changes....
01-29-2008, 03:25 PM
#97
Go Texas Longhorns!
While I can understand the pessimism, I think that a DI rotary fixes alot of the emissions and fuel economy issues. Don't take my word for it, there are quite a few SAE papers to back me up. The 16x development would take into account future Euro and U.S. emissions requirements; every engine design has to look ahead for things like that.
I would worry more about economy than emissions as far as what could kill the engine. Remember, cars are finally going to start getting lighter as automakers try to find a balance between weight and performance, which works to the rotary’s advantage.
I would have given the rotary engine 50% / 50% chances prior to the 16x announcements, post that I would say its odds of surviving have increased to 75%.
I would worry more about economy than emissions as far as what could kill the engine. Remember, cars are finally going to start getting lighter as automakers try to find a balance between weight and performance, which works to the rotary’s advantage.
I would have given the rotary engine 50% / 50% chances prior to the 16x announcements, post that I would say its odds of surviving have increased to 75%.
01-29-2008, 08:00 PM
#98
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You wont have trouble finding independent car importers in Thailand. There are plenty of them!! What I suggest is to try going to the more popular ones: SEC, TSL, Eton, KVA and see what they're offering. I'm going through a small dealership whose owner is a friend of a friend. So I'm dealing with him on a fairly informal basis---i.e. I have placed a preliminary order for the facelifted RX-8 although at present no brochures, spec sheet, or even price list is available. What I suggest is to wait for all the official info to come out, and then ask around. If you want to contact "my" dealership, I'd be happy to give you the contact details---just PM me.
01-29-2008, 11:14 PM
#99
Registered
If I were in charge of Mazda, I would take the decision to make an RX-8 that sells like hotcakes instead of the current one that has to be cleared off dealer's lots with deep, deep discounts.
Mazda knows how to turbocharge a rotary, and it would make an entire universe of difference in how many units/year they sell if they would just do it.
****** business decisions like this are why Mazda remains a very small company.
Mazda knows how to turbocharge a rotary, and it would make an entire universe of difference in how many units/year they sell if they would just do it.
****** business decisions like this are why Mazda remains a very small company.
on another note, sort of disappointed to not see an increase in engine performance but not too surprised about it because its just a face lift. it would be nice though to have the blue tooth and all those other goodies though. might as well trade in the 8... for the second gen 8?
Last edited by Mazdaspeed RX8 ver2; 01-29-2008 at 11:17 PM.
01-30-2008, 06:01 AM
#100
Registered
Don't know if this is BS or not?
Thanks R X!
Direct Injection is no done deal, getting it "to work" in a rotary is still creating many headaches at Mazda.
Sure they have had DI displays and in concept cars (Taiki, Senku) but has anyone seen vision or witnessed these DI cars actually working on a road/track?
You can not compare a DI Banger engine to rotary.
Direct Injection is no done deal, getting it "to work" in a rotary is still creating many headaches at Mazda.
Sure they have had DI displays and in concept cars (Taiki, Senku) but has anyone seen vision or witnessed these DI cars actually working on a road/track?
You can not compare a DI Banger engine to rotary.
They also said 2009 changes would have a small performance increase and "would stop the entire flooding issue".
(I was since told, on this board, that injector relocation would not help flooding)
Who knows.........
But the official pictures do show extra hoses in the engine bay; those might be oil injection or a change in the fuel injector location.
