R&T Mazdaspeed RX-8 vs. Nismo 350Z S-Tune
#26
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From: The stars at night, are big and bright...
Maybe it's just me...
I read the statements about the supercharged versions and what not, but in the final comparison, the 8 has basically stock numbers for hp & the nismo has 'enhanced' numbers. The 8 was originally supposed to be around 250 hp, the Z was 287. So does this mean, AND I HOPE TO GOD I AM WRONG, MAZDA, that the MS version only kicks at 250 (?!) instead of the anticipated bajillion hp that all of us hp fans so desperately crave.
Should that be the case, I hope SOMEBODY would begin developing a Renesis with either larger rotors or find a way to incorporate the '20b triple-rotor' setup in conjunction with the Renesis (and I don't mean the Acosta Racing '8 that just took an older version and dropped the 20b into the new '8s body, why don't you just give a kid an old man's heart for a transplant... ?!)
Should that be the case, I hope SOMEBODY would begin developing a Renesis with either larger rotors or find a way to incorporate the '20b triple-rotor' setup in conjunction with the Renesis (and I don't mean the Acosta Racing '8 that just took an older version and dropped the 20b into the new '8s body, why don't you just give a kid an old man's heart for a transplant... ?!)
#27
Did any of you read the R&T Article?
Hello All, I been on vacation and picked up the R&T to read about the comparisson test between the Infiniti G35 coup and the RX8. I still have not bought a car, Im waiting to test drive the new 05 Mustang in Sept. then Ill decide between it and the RX8. My son wants me to buy the RX8 real bad, and I havnt ruled it out yet.
The comparison test between the G35 and RX8 was interesting and of cource the RX8 got the most points.I have come to the conclusion the RX8 horsepower issue or lack there of is basicly just an image thing. People get hung up on numbers, I post on a Mustang forum that Im still concidering an RX8 and they reply its widely understood that the RX8 is underpowered. looking at figures yeah the RX8 has less hp and torque than many of its competitors.
But I have read all the tests runs between the RX8 and the 350Z and the Honda S2000 And when the profesional drivers put them on the track and push them to thier limits the RX8 is only behind the 350Z by .4 secs in the 0-60 and the 1/4 mile.And the RX8 has won every test comparrison. So theirs more to it than just hp numbers cause all the test drivers admit the RX8 feels faster then the numbers imply. And the most significant thing in that magazine was the long term test RX8 article. They said the interior was so great and wonderful to be there, it alone could be the single deciding factor for buying the car. Thats pretty high praise I thought!And I have to agree the RX8 interior is the best I have sat in.
And as for the gas milage, I would not have a problem with 14-17 mpg because it is a sports car. We have all come to expect 20 or so these days in every car including sports cars like the 350z which gets like 20.But a lot of sports cars dont get much more than 15 and back in the day of muscle cars, like the 60's with similar hp you would be lucky to get more than 10. I would say anything over 15 is a bonus.
The comparison test between the G35 and RX8 was interesting and of cource the RX8 got the most points.I have come to the conclusion the RX8 horsepower issue or lack there of is basicly just an image thing. People get hung up on numbers, I post on a Mustang forum that Im still concidering an RX8 and they reply its widely understood that the RX8 is underpowered. looking at figures yeah the RX8 has less hp and torque than many of its competitors.
But I have read all the tests runs between the RX8 and the 350Z and the Honda S2000 And when the profesional drivers put them on the track and push them to thier limits the RX8 is only behind the 350Z by .4 secs in the 0-60 and the 1/4 mile.And the RX8 has won every test comparrison. So theirs more to it than just hp numbers cause all the test drivers admit the RX8 feels faster then the numbers imply. And the most significant thing in that magazine was the long term test RX8 article. They said the interior was so great and wonderful to be there, it alone could be the single deciding factor for buying the car. Thats pretty high praise I thought!And I have to agree the RX8 interior is the best I have sat in.
And as for the gas milage, I would not have a problem with 14-17 mpg because it is a sports car. We have all come to expect 20 or so these days in every car including sports cars like the 350z which gets like 20.But a lot of sports cars dont get much more than 15 and back in the day of muscle cars, like the 60's with similar hp you would be lucky to get more than 10. I would say anything over 15 is a bonus.
#28
Originally Posted by Runfox
I have read all the tests runs between the RX8 and the 350Z and the Honda S2000 And when the profesional drivers put them on the track and push them to thier limits the RX8 is only behind the 350Z by .4 secs in the 0-60 and the 1/4 mile.And the RX8 has won every test comparrison. So theirs more to it than just hp numbers cause all the test drivers admit the RX8 feels faster then the numbers imply. And the most significant thing in that magazine was the long term test RX8 article. They said the interior was so great and wonderful to be there, it alone could be the single deciding factor for buying the car. Thats pretty high praise I thought!And I have to agree the RX8 interior is the best I have sat in.
Well, the bottom line is that currently in a straight line at any speed, the competitors of rx8 will simply take out any rx8 with equal drivers. it's not really all that close, because .4 seconds in 0 to 60 is actually a pretty big difference. The 1/4 mile times is even bigger. That's really the only advantage I see in other cars, but the rx8 overall I believe is the better vehicle. If there was an s/c rx8 out, then it would reign supreme of all the vehcles in every category. I hope Mazda is listening, because to really take over they need power power, plain and simple.
#30
The article is good, but it really is two different cars for two different people. The 8 is the better looking better handling car no matter what the mags say. Using the 3000 dollars less than the Z costs you can upgrade your 8 to smoke the Z in any challenge.
#31
My Bottom line
Im still waiting for Sept to test drive new 05 Mustang then decide between RX8 and Mustang.
I know Mazda is working on elec driven blower to boost rotory hp, I'm sure we will see it in a future RX8 or RX7. I'm sure with the large RX8 owner base Mazda will come out with a retro fit blower mod/factory install kit for original RX8s. It wont take much boost, a few pds 7-8 to make like 30+ more hp to say 270 or so and with the RX8 lite weight it would rule all in its class. So as far s I can see only good things in sight for all RX8 owners. More speed is definitely comeing down the road for all, and I dont think anyone will have to trade their RX8s in to get it.
I know Mazda is working on elec driven blower to boost rotory hp, I'm sure we will see it in a future RX8 or RX7. I'm sure with the large RX8 owner base Mazda will come out with a retro fit blower mod/factory install kit for original RX8s. It wont take much boost, a few pds 7-8 to make like 30+ more hp to say 270 or so and with the RX8 lite weight it would rule all in its class. So as far s I can see only good things in sight for all RX8 owners. More speed is definitely comeing down the road for all, and I dont think anyone will have to trade their RX8s in to get it.
#32
With the new Mazdaspeed 6 coming out towards the end of the year with all-wheel drive and 280HP with 265 or so pounds of torque, I would have to say that any sort of turbo'd Mazdaspeed RX-8 would put out a heck-of-a lot more than just 270HP!!!
Most likely this figure will be slightly north of 300 HP.
In the end, it will come down to the EPA and how much Mazda wants to push the gas-guzzler and emissions envelope.
Most likely this figure will be slightly north of 300 HP.
In the end, it will come down to the EPA and how much Mazda wants to push the gas-guzzler and emissions envelope.
#33
I don't know if I care for the looks of the S-tune Z.
While it does look similar to a slant nose 911, that very feature also makes the S-tune look like a dated 80's car.
I don't care too much for the normal Z hood either... the rest of the car looks great. I guess it's up to aftermarket body kits to make it look better
While it does look similar to a slant nose 911, that very feature also makes the S-tune look like a dated 80's car.
I don't care too much for the normal Z hood either... the rest of the car looks great. I guess it's up to aftermarket body kits to make it look better
#36
Just a little teaser to get you RX-8 fans excited, this was up at Laguna Seca two weeks ago when I went to see the Monterey Historic Races
http://www.genmay.net/showthread.php...1&page=1&pp=15
http://www.genmay.net/showthread.php...1&page=1&pp=15
#37
Originally Posted by Sanchothepanda
Just a little teaser to get you RX-8 fans excited, this was up at Laguna Seca two weeks ago when I went to see the Monterey Historic Races
http://www.genmay.net/showthread.php...1&page=1&pp=15
http://www.genmay.net/showthread.php...1&page=1&pp=15
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ewpost&t=37676
#40
Yes it was
And there's actually another thread debating its reality
here: http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php...6#post11192096
I still haven't ruled out the possibility that its an aftermarket car, as I'm sure there's a few people working at Laguna Seca with some Mazdaspeed connections, but it was sitting in a parking lot with several "official" Laguna Seca cars, and they weren't parking regular cars up there, so I'm pretty sure it was a worker lot.
And there's actually another thread debating its reality
here: http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php...6#post11192096
I still haven't ruled out the possibility that its an aftermarket car, as I'm sure there's a few people working at Laguna Seca with some Mazdaspeed connections, but it was sitting in a parking lot with several "official" Laguna Seca cars, and they weren't parking regular cars up there, so I'm pretty sure it was a worker lot.
#43
This articile is irksome because of the alleged HP gains but no gain in performance?
I have followed this issue for such a long time. The bottom line is that today, the competitors for the RX-8 are the G35 Coupe, the 350Z and the S2000, even though the latter two only have two seats. I have never put much stock in the Mustang comparisons. The Mustang is a muscle car and has been since the late 1980s GT 5.0 versions (as well as its 60s and early 70s heritage), yet you still see Mustang comparisons as you did with the first car mag comparison. And of course these are all faster in a straight line and we can talk about 4 seats and handling and elegance and interior and don't get me wrong, those do matter but so does straight line! If it did not we in this forum would not spend so much time discussing, debating, wishing, hoping and waiting for straight line performance mods.
The thing that disappoints me in an article like this is that Mazda really has an opportunity to showcase the MS RX-8 and truly bump the performance. Yet in the article the minor changes do bump the horsepower, yet the performance is the same?? Almost makes you wonder if they even drove the car?? The MS body kit is so heavy that it totally offsets a 50HP gain at the crank since most people are assuming the crank number is about 200HP, not the 238HP stated? So the MS RX-8 gets no gain in performance? This seems like adding insult to injury to me. If the thing is truly making 250HP at the dyno, wouldn't that be a 25% gain in HP since true stock is around 200HP at the flywheel?? Did the MS body kit add 25% in weight??
Heck, SR Motorsports seems to me to have been as aggressive as Mazda and they have the dyno runs to show a 40HP gain at the rear wheel using four things: intake, exhaust (2 parts, midpipe and the rest), and pulleys, heck their gains did not even take into account the lighter weight flywheel because its not in there on these dyno runs. 30HP is the gain with the high flow cat and not the mid pipe. I would pay good money for 30HP-40HP and good money it will take as their deal is $1300-$2000.
This all seems to somewhat contradict the theory (touted here and other places) that the engine is so highly tuned and emissions-sensitive that significant HP gains cannot be rung out of the Renesis. 30HP-40HP-50HP crank or rear wheels is in the 20%-30% range over stock with those stock runs in the 170HP range that seem to be so common.
The bottom line is this car needs to be bumped in order to compete with the aforementioned competition and who is in a better position to do it than Mazda/Mazdaspeed?? Once again I say, a 50HP gain at the crank = no gain in performance due to extra weight?? What gives here??
I have followed this issue for such a long time. The bottom line is that today, the competitors for the RX-8 are the G35 Coupe, the 350Z and the S2000, even though the latter two only have two seats. I have never put much stock in the Mustang comparisons. The Mustang is a muscle car and has been since the late 1980s GT 5.0 versions (as well as its 60s and early 70s heritage), yet you still see Mustang comparisons as you did with the first car mag comparison. And of course these are all faster in a straight line and we can talk about 4 seats and handling and elegance and interior and don't get me wrong, those do matter but so does straight line! If it did not we in this forum would not spend so much time discussing, debating, wishing, hoping and waiting for straight line performance mods.
The thing that disappoints me in an article like this is that Mazda really has an opportunity to showcase the MS RX-8 and truly bump the performance. Yet in the article the minor changes do bump the horsepower, yet the performance is the same?? Almost makes you wonder if they even drove the car?? The MS body kit is so heavy that it totally offsets a 50HP gain at the crank since most people are assuming the crank number is about 200HP, not the 238HP stated? So the MS RX-8 gets no gain in performance? This seems like adding insult to injury to me. If the thing is truly making 250HP at the dyno, wouldn't that be a 25% gain in HP since true stock is around 200HP at the flywheel?? Did the MS body kit add 25% in weight??
Heck, SR Motorsports seems to me to have been as aggressive as Mazda and they have the dyno runs to show a 40HP gain at the rear wheel using four things: intake, exhaust (2 parts, midpipe and the rest), and pulleys, heck their gains did not even take into account the lighter weight flywheel because its not in there on these dyno runs. 30HP is the gain with the high flow cat and not the mid pipe. I would pay good money for 30HP-40HP and good money it will take as their deal is $1300-$2000.
This all seems to somewhat contradict the theory (touted here and other places) that the engine is so highly tuned and emissions-sensitive that significant HP gains cannot be rung out of the Renesis. 30HP-40HP-50HP crank or rear wheels is in the 20%-30% range over stock with those stock runs in the 170HP range that seem to be so common.
The bottom line is this car needs to be bumped in order to compete with the aforementioned competition and who is in a better position to do it than Mazda/Mazdaspeed?? Once again I say, a 50HP gain at the crank = no gain in performance due to extra weight?? What gives here??
Last edited by foxman; 08-27-2004 at 02:03 PM.
#44
Originally Posted by Sanchothepanda
Just a little teaser to get you RX-8 fans excited, this was up at Laguna Seca two weeks ago when I went to see the Monterey Historic Races
http://www.genmay.net/showthread.php...1&page=1&pp=15
http://www.genmay.net/showthread.php...1&page=1&pp=15
I've talked to a few of my engineer friends and they love the wankel. They think it's great. And I know this engine won an International award, didn't it? But here goes this guy from that thread talking about how it's a mess. What gives?
Ok this isn't PCI cards or computer tech kiddo, this is basic LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS and the MECHANICS OF THE OTTO ENGINE CYCLE. It CAN NOT ******* BREAK THESE LAWS OR THESE MECHANICAL BARRIERS WITHOUT SIGNIFIGANT RESDESIGN SUCH THAT IT IS NOT A WANKEL OR A ROTARY ANYMORE.
Since you fail to see this for lack of education, let me take the time to learn you some ****:
1) Both the piston drive IC engine and the rotary IC engine are based on the Otto Thermal Cycle. BECAUSE of this, any advancement of the Otto Cycle itself (IE better fuel measuring capabilities or exhaust tech) can be used on both engines. Any material science advances can be shared between the two also. This is an UNDENIABLE FACT SINCE BOTH EMPLOY THE SAME ENERGY CONVERSION METHOD. This isn't computer protocall BS, these are engineering principles.
2) The things seriously wrong with the rotary -
A- Since the system employes a rotor, the forces exerted by the combustion process are NEVER perpendicular to the rotation line. Because of this you have shitty, shitty ******* torque. Look at the *** end of the ignition cycle and do a free-body-diagram of the forces from combustion (**** look at the begining); they are not perpendicular to the center line of rotation, loosing LOTS AND LOTS of available power.
B- The combustion chamber is such that it must wrap itself around an entire side of the rotor. The chamber is SO ******* BIG that it takes two plugs to fire. Now, from a heat transfer point of view, where convection (heat transfer from a fluid to a solid) is governed by:
Q = h * A * (T - Ts)
-where h is the convection coefficient, A is the surface area, T is the air temp, and Ts is the surface temp- we can fully see that the large surface area causes more heat transfer to the block (directly proportional). Since there is more HEAT transfer to a block during the ignition part of the Otto cycle as comparative to a piston engine (which looses heat during the expansion part of the cycle), the thermal efficiency (the ability to effectively use it's fuel) is GREATLY diminished. It cannot bypass this fact, and it cannot defy the first law of thermodynamics. I mean, the basic under-writing of what a WANKEL engine is defines this as a part of the system; it defines a technically inferior mechanical process as to what is already there.
C- The engine overlap causes loss of power during the powerstroke. Due to this, the engine exhibits great flow efficiency through itself, but a severe lack in thermal efficiency.
D- The rotor itself is a mechanical nightmare. The motion everyone thinks is fluid and circular is nothing more than a tumbling triangle.The forces needed to keep changing the direction and velocity of the ends of the rotor are more severe than the forces at the base of a connection rod. Not only does the block experience lateral stresses from ignition, but also MASSIVE traveling stresses in all directions (much more so than an average piston engine). These CONSTANT and ILL-OILED contact forces degrade mechanical output even more.
3) In today's day and age, where computer simulation and modeling can help produce fast, efficient designs, even with a modest design budget can a great engine be made. It isn't a problem of enough man-hours as there is a problem with the basic concept. Plus GM had a problem with the low torque, high emissions, and shitty gas mileage of their rotary.
4) This isn't new high-tech stuff. This is old crack-pot **** for suburbanites that don't know **** about **** when it comes to design technology. This isn't the assembly line, or ******* puting a man on the moon, this is a gimick (like the hemi) that makes idiots want the stupid-*** car. EVERY good engineer will tell you that this is a POS. You do some calculations, you look at whats going on, and you gotta say "Hey, there has to be some serious ******* changes made to this before it has a remote chance in hell of being a good product. ****, I have to base it on a different mechanical design." This is like a Pinto with a gas-tank near the bumper, or a boat-car. This is Homer's eye-sore bubble-top car. This is the 'Tornado!' vortex thing, or some other silly contraption being sold on an infomercial.
Now whats good about the rotary? Volumetric flow through it. Your able to flow alot of air through it. Now turning fuel into mechanical energy? It's terrible. Good flow doesn't mean **** when it doesn't transfer to mechanical energy.
Since you fail to see this for lack of education, let me take the time to learn you some ****:
1) Both the piston drive IC engine and the rotary IC engine are based on the Otto Thermal Cycle. BECAUSE of this, any advancement of the Otto Cycle itself (IE better fuel measuring capabilities or exhaust tech) can be used on both engines. Any material science advances can be shared between the two also. This is an UNDENIABLE FACT SINCE BOTH EMPLOY THE SAME ENERGY CONVERSION METHOD. This isn't computer protocall BS, these are engineering principles.
2) The things seriously wrong with the rotary -
A- Since the system employes a rotor, the forces exerted by the combustion process are NEVER perpendicular to the rotation line. Because of this you have shitty, shitty ******* torque. Look at the *** end of the ignition cycle and do a free-body-diagram of the forces from combustion (**** look at the begining); they are not perpendicular to the center line of rotation, loosing LOTS AND LOTS of available power.
B- The combustion chamber is such that it must wrap itself around an entire side of the rotor. The chamber is SO ******* BIG that it takes two plugs to fire. Now, from a heat transfer point of view, where convection (heat transfer from a fluid to a solid) is governed by:
Q = h * A * (T - Ts)
-where h is the convection coefficient, A is the surface area, T is the air temp, and Ts is the surface temp- we can fully see that the large surface area causes more heat transfer to the block (directly proportional). Since there is more HEAT transfer to a block during the ignition part of the Otto cycle as comparative to a piston engine (which looses heat during the expansion part of the cycle), the thermal efficiency (the ability to effectively use it's fuel) is GREATLY diminished. It cannot bypass this fact, and it cannot defy the first law of thermodynamics. I mean, the basic under-writing of what a WANKEL engine is defines this as a part of the system; it defines a technically inferior mechanical process as to what is already there.
C- The engine overlap causes loss of power during the powerstroke. Due to this, the engine exhibits great flow efficiency through itself, but a severe lack in thermal efficiency.
D- The rotor itself is a mechanical nightmare. The motion everyone thinks is fluid and circular is nothing more than a tumbling triangle.The forces needed to keep changing the direction and velocity of the ends of the rotor are more severe than the forces at the base of a connection rod. Not only does the block experience lateral stresses from ignition, but also MASSIVE traveling stresses in all directions (much more so than an average piston engine). These CONSTANT and ILL-OILED contact forces degrade mechanical output even more.
3) In today's day and age, where computer simulation and modeling can help produce fast, efficient designs, even with a modest design budget can a great engine be made. It isn't a problem of enough man-hours as there is a problem with the basic concept. Plus GM had a problem with the low torque, high emissions, and shitty gas mileage of their rotary.
4) This isn't new high-tech stuff. This is old crack-pot **** for suburbanites that don't know **** about **** when it comes to design technology. This isn't the assembly line, or ******* puting a man on the moon, this is a gimick (like the hemi) that makes idiots want the stupid-*** car. EVERY good engineer will tell you that this is a POS. You do some calculations, you look at whats going on, and you gotta say "Hey, there has to be some serious ******* changes made to this before it has a remote chance in hell of being a good product. ****, I have to base it on a different mechanical design." This is like a Pinto with a gas-tank near the bumper, or a boat-car. This is Homer's eye-sore bubble-top car. This is the 'Tornado!' vortex thing, or some other silly contraption being sold on an infomercial.
Now whats good about the rotary? Volumetric flow through it. Your able to flow alot of air through it. Now turning fuel into mechanical energy? It's terrible. Good flow doesn't mean **** when it doesn't transfer to mechanical energy.
Last edited by RUmble; 08-28-2004 at 09:12 AM.
#45
That guy who posted is a complete moron. Obviously, he doesn't know thermodynamics is based on empirical evidence. Nearly all engineering principles are based on empiricism. That's not the point. Are you really going to take this into consideration? Haha. I think not. This was probably written by a sophomore engineering student, a wise fool. I don't want to start a piston vs. rotor debate; no one is going to win.
Every Good engineer was will say it's a POS? I have talked to other engineers about rotary engines, and they think it's a great idea. No, the RENESIS didn't win those awards because there was nothing else available at the time. It won because it was innovative, and it beat all the other contenders, even the Toyota Prius engine.
Seriously, please don't bring other people's crap into this forum. That guy's post was a total waste of time.
edit: oh yeah BTW. There is a big difference between an engineer and a bench engineer. This guy is obviously the latter.
Every Good engineer was will say it's a POS? I have talked to other engineers about rotary engines, and they think it's a great idea. No, the RENESIS didn't win those awards because there was nothing else available at the time. It won because it was innovative, and it beat all the other contenders, even the Toyota Prius engine.
Seriously, please don't bring other people's crap into this forum. That guy's post was a total waste of time.
edit: oh yeah BTW. There is a big difference between an engineer and a bench engineer. This guy is obviously the latter.
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