ASH8

Agree with you Denny...

Mazda have tried many if not all of what you said over the years...

In the end it also comes down to cost of production and what they can sell it for.

Unless Mazda can make the 16X or whatever as a sole power plant, a Rotary Hybrid or Rotary Generator or whatever just wont fly with me or most buyers/owners...it is not a Rotary.

Can you imagine the negative publicity if..
1. It is not significantly more powerful that the 13B.
2. If it is called an RX-7 it has to be faster or more powerful that 13B REW, if not it can not be called an RX-7, as the media and others will call it out as a lame *** attempt.
3. As I said at least 30 REAL MPG, or it wont fly, remember we are talking until production to 2025 and beyond.
4. That is just the start......5,6,7,8,9..

Whatever one thinks Mazda has to appeal the Rotary to all, not just the few ironed on enthusiast's like us around the world.

IT IS A HUGE ASK!

elysium19

iTrader: (1)

Thank you Paul! This reminds me why I love these forums- as rare as it is, there are some people with genuine semi-inside knowledge.

I'd love to see it happen, though I realize it might still be a pipedream...

77mjd

I think this is a big key to get a LEGIT 30 hwy. Mazda really needs to take their time with this and get it right so the car is relevant for it's entire production run. The current 8 had decent sales for about the first 3 years and then practically dropped of the face of the earth. Fuel prices had a lot to do with that.

tjbourgoyne

One huge engineering feat if it happens. I think it can but keeping it in the cheap sports car price range is another tall order. What Mazda would have is about as close to a perfect sports car for the masses as it can get.

77mjd

I'd just like to see more torque and better mpg. I'm not worried as much about HP. If they could get something in the 250-275 range in a car the weight of the current 8 or a little less I think I'd be happy as long as there was a way to get a little more grunt off the line.

A thing I still wonder about with the future of the rotary is...Once a car is out, can Mazda contiune to engineer the engine so they can still make improvements to it every few years? Unlike the current rotary, which hasn't gained any power or efficiency since it's been out. I guess the series 2 gained in reliability but that's about it.

TALAN7

I believe Mazda should make the rotary sports car into the real exotic it already is. No one really buys the rotary, it's not mainstream. The problem was they tried to make an everymans, everyday sporty car for the masses. The rotary never really caught on, it won't sell that way. They should make an all out 3 rotor motor getting well over 400 hp, put it in a light weight, (here is the change), premium sports car with all they tech they could muster and sell it as a true halo car, somewhere around 45-70 grand. This car would compete against Corvettes, GTRs, Porsches, Audi TTs, S4s, (and R8s to lesser extent), Infiniti g37s, Lotus Evoras, dust Zs (but be positioned higher than a Z), Only blown Mustangs and Camaros, ie Shelbys, Boss, SS etc. The base model could be a little heavier and the more expensive model could have a lot of carbon fiber parts to lighten it up even more. Tuned for the track this car would beat most cars around it with it balance and poise.

Everything about the RX8 speaks exotic, the motor, the doors, the driving style. I think it would sell about the same as the current car, but in this exotic, halo configuration it wouldn't be expected or made in the amount to sell in large volumes.

yes, it would be hard for people like us to afford it, but I think that's the biggest problem with the current car, it's not pushed enough to the extreme.

Spin9k

One small problem with your idea is the current state of the Mazda dealer network. Perhaps not every dealer is like mine, but I'd wager there are a fair number. My dealer has a building that looks like a cross between an A&W Rootbeer stand and a 60s-era gas station. A upto $70,000 car needs to have some amenities and class in it's dealer network. My dealer charges $.50 a cup of self serve coffee as you sit in one of two steel chairs in front of the service desk, in a 'room' about 10ft x 6ft, not exactly an upscale feeling. The 'showroom floor' is all of 20ftx30ft. My local BMW dealer is in a brand new palatial building with every amenity possible and sells $70+K cars all day long.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I hate to dish on this, but all the same was said about the fabled Renesis from the time FD3 production ended until the SE3P was introduced. I don't think anyone would call the end result a win for marketing or reputation. Even the SAE got a black eye by awarding the engine design based on gushing engineering reports rather than real world results, which by and large would collectively be classified as dismal. At some point you even have to wonder if any real world testing ever took place or if someone just made it up as they went and/or the only other explanation would be that the manufacturing production process is heavily flawed. The first two years of the customer base should not have to serve as beta testers ....

TALAN7

This is exactly why this could help. Mazda should state that only certain premium dealers could sell thus giving the average dealership the incentive to upgrade. Mazda already has the reputation as the worst in customer service. What better way to announce/incentivise better service that with a new premium halo car. I don't see them making brand new palatial buildings to sell Mazda2s but a premium 400-500 hp sports car made to go toe to toe with Corvettes, GTRs etc could work.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

They tried that before and it did sell well. We know it as the RX7 FD. It cost $40K (that 1993 dollars folks). If you think the engine isn't mainstream enough to get people to buy at $30K, building a $50K car is going to get less buyers.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The only way that such a "killer" car would work is in magazines, kid's posters, and video games. All those cars you compare it to are not nearly as good in sales as you might think. They are the ones that show up in "cool" places, but they aren't the cars that people buy. Sure, a handful of people do. But Mazda needs volume.




*I've been hunting for a V6 vs V8 sales comparison, but I can't seem to find it. So for now, my information is just based on my impression of what I see on the street all the time.

TALAN7

The engine isn't mainstream enough at all regardless of buyers. Building and marketing it as an exotic car, with that level of performance would attract a different buyer, one who's buying for performance if the car was built and marketed as a race car.
The rotary is really a race engine, it works best when raced. By marketing to that particular client they may solve some of their maintenance problems regarding people who lug their RX8s around. People don't buy GTRs/ZR1s to lug around. You don't put a race engine in a civic when a average civic buyer just wants good mileage and reliability.
Tell prospective buyers who would look at this rotary supercar, this car is not your everyday car, it's a rotary and requires more maintenance, gas, and needs to be driven hard, but you would belong to an elite group of owners who have an elite car/engine. A 230 hp rotary is not elite in any regards

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

^ that's a valid point Talan.

I still don't think it would work, but that perspective shift of the buyer would shift the engine away from the consumers it's troubled by (in addition to those it isn't in my opinion)

tjbourgoyne

Getting back to 77M's comment, whatever they decide will need an upgraded engine locked into the design. I would have traded in my RX8 even if it were a less than modest performance upgrade by now. Not sure if I can hold off another 3-5 years without going in a different direction which is heartbreaking but I'm going to try.

TALAN7

None of those cars are built to sell in large volumes. That may be the problem there. Don't build it in large volumes. Take time and build each one right and market it to a different demographic. Toyota actually stated that they make no money on the LFA. No ones buying the rotary car anyway, might as well be a car that people drool over. I was suprised how few RX8s Mazda sold in Japan last year, hardly any, and it's built in Japan. If it had GTR/ZR1 or even Z06 performance no matter what mileage it got, how reliable it was, one thing you wouldn't be able to take away would be it's level of performance. I don't think in any iteration would the rotary be "the car that people buy".

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Mazda Brand in USA simply not "up to that level" yet.

Think about it, even the biggest Mazda dealer in the world AKA Wayne Mazda ... their showrooms are big but it feels like it's something like a Toyota/Honda/GM/etc class. nothing like BMW/Mercedes/Audi/etc.

Mazda might be rated low in the US. but it's actually pretty high in the rest of the world. I wonder why

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

it doesn't work that way.

Think of it this way, if Old Navy starts a new line called "Elite" which sells stuff like what LV has been selling, it uses LV like Material or even better, and with LV like service (in the showroom), would you buy it? I know I wouldn't, instead I will just walk back to LV

Mazda's brand simply not "up to there" yet.

It took Lexus(Toyota) so many years to build their reputation. Mazda can't do that, at least not yet.

TALAN7

5 years ago Hyundai was looked upon as a low rent brand. Because of their foresight to improve, push boundaries they are the darling of the auto market right now. Kia's rep was even worse and they are getting the same types of accolades as Hyundai is. Mazda is not even seen as low rent as Hyundai was considered a few years ago. Yes, their customer service is subpar, but it's on them to improve it. Their cars aren't seen as cheap. Hyundai sells 70 grand cars right now. You mean to tell me Mazda couldn't make and market a 60-70 grand car sucessfully? I think you're selling Mazda short.

Spin9k

Your explaination is elegant.. and telling. If the Koreans could turn a rolling joke into something sought after, both for style and substance....at everyday and premium prices in only a few years..... a fair question is what has Mazda done in that same time? The answer is some good things but not close to the Korean's transformation. They are not alone in lagging sales in Japan for sure. However, no one's selling any of them short, it just how it is - their sales ..and model lineup... speak for themselves.

ASH8

You are all forgetting the currency exchanges rates..
Korean to Japan.... to the US Dollar.

Strong Yen is not good for Mazda Japan.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I know what you mean, Hell I bought a Hyundai Sonata Hybrid just 3 months ago.

The car you talking about is Equus. I tried it when I was shopping for a Genesis, it's not a bad car at all, but mind you the "60-70 K car" is NOT selling well, reason is simple : not many people wanna pay 60-70 to get a Hyundai. They went to get a BMW/Audi/etc ... well you get the idea.

Most people went to Hyundai for Sonata and Elantra. Cuz you can get fully loaded Sonata for under 30K and Elantra for something in the 20-22K range. Some people got the Genesis, cuz you can get the R-spec for around 42K, 39K for V8, and V6 for 35K. I was about to get the Genesis, but they didn't had the color that I want and I was in a hurry, so I got the Sonata Hybrid instead.

It's not a bad car when you first see it, but after you drive it for a while you will know how Hyundai managed to sell their "nice looking cars" for such low price. they cut a lot of corners. but u gotta own the car + you're a car person (like me) to notice them. one of the most "obvious" cut corner tactic is : There is no spare tire for Sonata nor Elantra. yep, you read that right. they gave you this pathetic "Flat repair kit that on the paper it saids it will last a holy moly 0.6 miles ..."

Funny thing is it took them almost a year to release the spare tire kit for Elantra and it will cost you "ONLY" 230 bux. I was about to get it cuz I called Hyundai like every week and the parts guy said they even call corporate but still have no idea when will the Sonata version gonna be release ... so far I drove 6K miles on it and I already hit a nail once. Lucky it was a clean punch the air didn't just leak out ...

Mazda is kinda different than Hyundai, talking about Business models. too many "yes man" in MNAO ... so I would say Mazda Japan "probably" doesn't know what MNAO is doing in US market ...

Also, Mazda does not cut corners like Hyundai. I'm dead serious about this. again, u gotta own both cars to know the difference.

Another problem, as ASH has pointed out, is the exchange rate, its killing almost all exporters like Mazda.

When Ford was still controlling Mazda, they "purposely" made Mazda a "lower brand than Ford", Ford itself is garbage so they Made Mazda even more garbage.

Now Ford is gone, Mazda is trying to "get back up" but Ford made them so garbage over the years and it will take some time before they can get back up.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

I don't think Ford has had any ill intent towards Mazda. They used each other to achieve mutually beneficial objectives. Did Ford gain more from the process? Maybe. Would Mazda have survived without them? I'm not sure. People always say things like "Ford did not want the RX-8 to outshine the Mustang". That holds no water at all.

People forget the extent of the success of the first generation Rx-7. Something reasonably priced is the best approach but with very little in the way of quality sacrifices. We could all learn from Hyundai's rise and I think Mazda is making smart moves including the new Mexico plant.

We'll see.

Paul.

Spin9k

Exchange rate excuse doesn't cut it. Two easy examples would be...

- If exchange rate's the key.... Chinese cars should be everywhere - they aren't.

- BMW, AUDI and VW aren't having problems with sales growth and profit (that even banks might be nervous about admitting) despite the disadvantage they're in with the 'euro vs $' exchange rate.

Could it be Korean and German carmakers are doing two simple things right?

1. making 'what buyers want' along with
2. actually 'marketing what you make' to make it most attractive

Both components are essential. Some evidence as to what happens when one or the other component is missing might be gleened from the fact that Toyota sales have plumeted even though their TV ads are unrelentlessly.

Or Mazda making some good product, but besides being a tad late to the game - few are aware of it (little to no marketing).

As a further example of this Mazda sold 1,902 Mazda Tributes thru Aug this year, where as the nearly identical SUV, the Ford Escape, has sold to the tune of 167,625 in the same time period. Marketing making a difference possibly?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

this is why Chinese cars aren't everywhere:

The list of stuff they don't export is largely denominated by quality regulations in other countries. Exchange rate isn't a factor in that decision.

Spin9k

Exactly.