Notices
RX-8 Media News Report the latest RX-8 related news stories here.

Rotary News: Breakthrough may give Rotary new life

 
Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Rate Thread
 
Old 03-06-2012 | 07:02 PM
  #51  
RIWWP's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,684
Likes: 261
From: Pacific Northwest
What do you see wrong with a convex rotor tip against a concave housing surface? Doesn't even have to be extreme or severe to eliminate 'corners'
Old 03-06-2012 | 10:26 PM
  #52  
nycgps's Avatar
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,881
Likes: 32
From: Planet Earth
Originally Posted by missinmahseven
I say build another 1st-gen Rx-7. Light, simple. Don't even give me power windows or power seats (I'm serious here.) Just four wheels, a brilliant chassis, a brilliant engine, and brakes that'll pop the eyes out of their sockets. Still make it nice, tho -- nice leather everywhere, metal instead of plastic trim rings on the instruments, nice switches, etc. Keep it under 3000 pounds.
a car like that would never sell, because most buyers actually wants those stuff. supply and demand.

a basic Rx-8 weights UNDER 3000 pounds, it was hard because you need to reach crash safety standard, u don't want the testing to be "poor" or "good", you want "Excellent" cuz some buyers will put those into car buying decisions. Plus all the air bags and other safety equipment ... but with high tensile steel (1800+) we might actually have a car that's lighter, 2800 ish lbs fully loaded would be very possible.



But perhaps more importantly, after the FD and now the FE's rather iffy reliability reputation -- offer a 250,000 mile no-questions-asked warranty on the entire car, from head to stern, top to bottom.
No questions asked is just impossible, there is no reason for Mazda to pay for end user's **** ups.

be like Hyundai, 5 yrs 60K b2b EXCEPT electronic equpiment which is 36K 3 years (read the fine print! LOL) and 100K 10 years powertrain warranty. instant business.

Heh.. I just realized, the next Rotary chassis code may well be FF.. A F?@#ing Fast Rotary Rocket. All motor, baby. I don't want teh turbos. Put 300 hp NA wankel at 9,000 revs in a 2500 pound car, and you'll have a monster.
See reason #1

Oh, and what's wrong with "upscale?" It's the direction Mazda's going in -- deal with it. To me upscale doesn't have to mean expensive or heavy. It just means nice. I consider a Mini Cooper S upscale. It's well made, well trimmed, and it just doesn't have that sh*tbox feeling the original did. Even the new Fiat 500 doesn't have the sh*tbox feeling the real thing had.
They can make it upscale and keep it light, but I'm not sure if anybody wants to get a Mazda that's in the 100K range like the GT-R. I mean sure if it has GT-R kind of performance, no problem, but the "Brand name" is just not there yet.

Otherwise, after the FD and FE reliability issues, no one will trust you again.
the problem is Mazda gave US owners a wonderful "5w20" recommendation AND a few other very STUPID fault. it's fixed in S2. but too little too late. I'm sure they will not (try not to plz?) make the same mistake again (if you do Mazda, I'm gonna kick y0 *****)

I still will. This is my favorite engine, with the Ferrari twelves a close second. The rest are just back there, somewhere.
Ferrari is expensive because of the brand, they can snap all the most expensive parts, sell it 10 times the price and ppl still buy it.

Is their car fast? sure yea, if I can throw 200K into my RX8 I'm sure I can make it as fast as a Ferrari.
Old 03-07-2012 | 03:32 AM
  #53  
ASH8's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
You have to hand it to those clever Mazda Japanese Engineers...much better now Ford are not breathing down the backs of their necks...lets just hope Mazda can get over all their serious currency losses, this is Mazda biggest threat to survival...I just hope the local Hiroshima Council and or Japanese Government will not allow Mazda to fold....IF it come to this.
Old 03-07-2012 | 03:35 AM
  #54  
ASH8's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
I have two Japanese Ferrari's in my garage Jackson.!!
Old 03-07-2012 | 06:12 AM
  #55  
pistonhater's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 1
From: Cacti Land, AZ
Originally Posted by RIWWP
What do you see wrong with a convex rotor tip against a concave housing surface? Doesn't even have to be extreme or severe to eliminate 'corners'
I just can't see how you could create a curve of constant width that supports the 4 phases of combustion in a perfectly circular fashion. that's one of the reasons why the rotary engine has 'corners'

Can you do it without having any corners or triangular tips at all? Sure, but now you are getting into jet engine territory.
Old 03-07-2012 | 09:51 AM
  #56  
Roen's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
The hell is an FE? You mean SE?
Old 03-07-2012 | 10:02 AM
  #57  
alnielsen's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (4)
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 12,255
Likes: 7
From: Buddhist Monastery, High Himalaya Mtns. of Tibet
Originally Posted by Roen
The hell is an FE? You mean SE?
If you check the VIN number on a RX8, you will see it is a FE. Just as was a RX7 1st gen a FB, a 2nd gen a FC and 3rd gen a FD. The VIN number is placed there by Mazda.
Old 03-07-2012 | 10:21 AM
  #58  
Mazmart's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,793
Likes: 63
Originally Posted by alnielsen
If you check the VIN number on a RX8, you will see it is a FE. Just as was a RX7 1st gen a FB, a 2nd gen a FC and 3rd gen a FD. The VIN number is placed there by Mazda.
This is one of the mysteries of Mazda as it is FE in our market and SE in some others.

Paul.
Old 03-07-2012 | 11:38 AM
  #59  
dynamho's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,963
Likes: 7
From: Norwood, NJ
Originally Posted by ASH8
lets just hope Mazda can get over all their serious currency losses, this is Mazda biggest threat to survival...I just hope the local Hiroshima Council and or Japanese Government will not allow Mazda to fold....IF it come to this.
Mazda recently had an ambitious share sale to raise money largely to build a factory in Mexico (and Russia?) I think.

The sale went well and was oversubscribed: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8E73Z220120307

I'm showing my support for this maverick carmaker and snapped up a handful of shares. They are as of this writing $1.6 as pink slips (MZDAF).

Last edited by dynamho; 03-07-2012 at 11:42 AM.
Old 03-07-2012 | 11:42 AM
  #60  
MattMPS's Avatar
Wiseguy
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 37
From: Italy
Originally Posted by dynamho
The sale went well and was oversubscribed: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8E73Z220120307
.
Thanx dynamho , this is a good news....i've waiting for this....
Old 03-07-2012 | 12:02 PM
  #61  
rotarygod's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,134
Likes: 25
From: Houston
Originally Posted by nycgps
a basic Rx-8 weights UNDER 3000 pounds, it was hard because you need to reach crash safety standard, u don't want the testing to be "poor" or "good", you want "Excellent" cuz some buyers will put those into car buying decisions. Plus all the air bags and other safety equipment ... but with high tensile steel (1800+) we might actually have a car that's lighter, 2800 ish lbs fully loaded would be very possible.
It would be simple to make it lighter. Get rid of the back seat and stupid 4 door sports car concept crap and get back to what the rotary should have always stayed relegated to. A small, light 2-seater sports car like the RX-7's. It could hit 2500 lbs this way.
Old 03-07-2012 | 01:03 PM
  #62  
ober's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
i like the four door four seat idea, 2 seats means i couldn't use it as my daily driver. And i like having a rotary car i can use every day. Probably not worth it for mazda to do a coupe and 4 door model rotary right? Cause having some options like that would be nice
Old 03-07-2012 | 01:24 PM
  #63  
pistonhater's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 1
From: Cacti Land, AZ
Originally Posted by alnielsen
If you check the VIN number on a RX8, you will see it is a FE. Just as was a RX7 1st gen a FB, a 2nd gen a FC and 3rd gen a FD. The VIN number is placed there by Mazda.
Interesting, i didn't know that. I'm gonna start referring to my car as a "FE"

Originally Posted by rotarygod
It would be simple to make it lighter. Get rid of the back seat and stupid 4 door sports car concept crap and get back to what the rotary should have always stayed relegated to. A small, light 2-seater sports car like the RX-7's. It could hit 2500 lbs this way.
I - like many people out there I assume - sort of like the convenience of having those seats and suicide doors.

However, I agree with you. And I think the RX-8 would have been great as a 2-seater. Somebody a while ago did a photoshop of a real 2-door RX-8 and I really liked the concept within the overall design of the car. I would certainly love to drive a smaller, lighter 2-seater rotary
Old 03-07-2012 | 01:34 PM
  #64  
alnielsen's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (4)
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 12,255
Likes: 7
From: Buddhist Monastery, High Himalaya Mtns. of Tibet
Originally Posted by pistonhater
Interesting, i didn't know that. I'm gonna start referring to my car as a "FE"
You will get a lot of push-back from RX7 owners. They still don't like the fact that the RX8 is a continuation of the lineage, because it has 4 seats & 4 doors.
Old 03-07-2012 | 03:11 PM
  #65  
pistonhater's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 1
From: Cacti Land, AZ
Originally Posted by alnielsen
You will get a lot of push-back from RX7 owners. They still don't like the fact that the RX8 is a continuation of the lineage, because it has 4 seats & 4 doors.
I can imagine there's a good number of RX-7 purists out there. Well, I personally know a good number of them And I sort of understand where they are coming from to be honest with you.

I have never thought of the 8 as a hard core sports car as the FD was/is - for example; nor do I think it is a successor of the RX-7.

It's just something different, a pretty interesting compromise between a sports car and a regular car. Not a cup of tea for the purists, but hey, it has a rotary engine and it's still pretty damn fun to drive
Old 03-07-2012 | 03:33 PM
  #66  
dynamho's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,963
Likes: 7
From: Norwood, NJ
If it drives as well as the 8, has a rotary in it, bumps up the power, and doesn't look like crap, I don't care if it's 2, 4, or 5 doors, I wan't it.

I don't care if it's 5000 lbs or 50hp, as long as it feels like it's at most 10lb/hp, I want it.
Old 03-07-2012 | 03:43 PM
  #67  
13x's Avatar
13x
SinCityRotary
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
From: Lost Wages, Nev
Originally Posted by alnielsen
You will get a lot of push-back from RX7 owners. They still don't like the fact that the RX8 is a continuation of the lineage, because it has 4 seats & 4 doors.
Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
So much for "Rotary Brotherhood", eh?

hey hey now

cannot take the words of a few to represent the whole

plus the Rx7's outside the US had back seats but still only two doors
Old 03-07-2012 | 10:39 PM
  #68  
nycgps's Avatar
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,881
Likes: 32
From: Planet Earth
Originally Posted by ASH8
I have two Japanese Ferrari's in my garage Jackson.!!
ARgh ... I don't know if I can Call RX-8 a "Japanese Ferrari" ...

maybe FD but FE is just ...

Originally Posted by Roen
The hell is an FE? You mean SE?
FE is the body code of RX-8.

Originally Posted by alnielsen
If you check the VIN number on a RX8, you will see it is a FE. Just as was a RX7 1st gen a FB, a 2nd gen a FC and 3rd gen a FD. The VIN number is placed there by Mazda.
Originally Posted by Mazmart
This is one of the mysteries of Mazda as it is FE in our market and SE in some others.

Paul.
I keep on thinking : This has something to do with the way Japanese people speaks English. The way they pronouce "F" and "S" are actually very similar, there were probably some mistakes between the engineering team and marketing (or whatever). when The marketing ask the engineering team "what is the code name of the car, I need to publish this", then the engineer told him "F-fuuuu-Ee-San-S-i" , the marketing guy probably thought he said "S-su-E-San-S-i" and wrote the info down and publish it ...

Originally Posted by rotarygod
It would be simple to make it lighter. Get rid of the back seat and stupid 4 door sports car concept crap and get back to what the rotary should have always stayed relegated to. A small, light 2-seater sports car like the RX-7's. It could hit 2500 lbs this way.
that's true, even now if u take both back cusion off, replace the 2 rear door with carbon fiber door you will save like 200 lbs.

Oh well, let's see what mazda gonna do.

Originally Posted by pistonhater
I can imagine there's a good number of RX-7 purists out there. Well, I personally know a good number of them And I sort of understand where they are coming from to be honest with you.

I have never thought of the 8 as a hard core sports car as the FD was/is - for example; nor do I think it is a successor of the RX-7.

It's just something different, a pretty interesting compromise between a sports car and a regular car. Not a cup of tea for the purists, but hey, it has a rotary engine and it's still pretty damn fun to drive
When Mazda design FD, they designed with competition and racing in mind. That's why it has a useless trunk, 2 seats, super low Center of Gravity (that time), Double Wish bone Front and rear and Twin Turbo Rotary Engine and a fairly light weight body. Just like what Honda did to NSX, High displacement NA Engine, Mid-Rear drivetrain, super light weight body, super good handling, yeah, another total competition and racing car.

FE is never meant to be a hard core sports car, they just wanna see if this market will work. Well that didn't turn out so well, so I guess the next one they will go back to pure sports car. It's actually a good time, cuz it seems that another "Affordable Sports car competition" is coming. Look at Subaru/Toyota's BRZ/FT-86.

Last edited by nycgps; 03-07-2012 at 10:41 PM.
Old 03-08-2012 | 08:46 AM
  #69  
HiFlite999's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,257
Likes: 5
From: MI
I'm not sure I'd call the RX-8 an outright failure. Certainly they expected greater sales than were eventually obtained. However, in sales terms, compared to the FD, the FE was a splendid success. The FE saved the rotary for a decade and created a new generation of fans that were priced out of any chance to buy an FD. Many of those fans could not have justified buying a 2-seat-only car. As I've said before, I'd like to see a rotary-option for the Miata, with another 2+2 or full 4-seat rotary offered in a seperate car.

RX-7 and RX-8 production numbers: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-media-news-11/mazda-rotary-production-number-history-169856/
Old 03-08-2012 | 09:18 AM
  #70  
Huey52's Avatar
Registered Zoom Zoomer
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,089
Likes: 6
From: New England
The 16X has a slightly different internal rotor path shape than the present Renesis, so ... There's plenty of room in the math for advantageous changes.

Originally Posted by pistonhater
I cannot conceive how is it that they changed the shape of the housing.

I've read documents explaining - mathematically - how the shape of the housing as we know it is the one and ONLY shape that could make the rotary engine work. Felix Wankel has been praised in the engineering world for decades for coming up with that shape/design.

Perhaps I misunderstood the article.
Old 03-08-2012 | 11:23 AM
  #71  
Hi Flying 8's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 185
Likes: 3
From: Colorado
With the idea of a differently shaped rotor, I had a thought that might improve the pressure on the apex seal at low rpm's. Might be as crazy a thought as something Olddragger would come up with, but brainstorming occasionally comes up with good ideas.

What if the apex groove was cut , instead of perpendicular to the housing surface, it was canted slightly obtuse so that the apex was pointed into the direction of rotation? This would push the Apex against the spring and against the back of the groove for a better seal, especially at lower revolutions. Also, could the rotor be shaped in a flat or maybe even a little toward a concave form rather than convex. This might allow for differently shaped exhaust and intake ports. It may allow an exhaust port design that doesn't interfere as much with the side seals.

May be crazy thoughts, but people thought the hemi was a worthless idea once as well.
Old 03-08-2012 | 11:37 AM
  #72  
RIWWP's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,684
Likes: 261
From: Pacific Northwest
Hmmm, the leading apex seal. If it was pointed in the direction of rotation, there would be a bit of a wedge corner as the combustion hit it. This could create a bit of a pocket that might actually help it against the pressure wave. The problem with this is that the pressure of the forward motion of the rotor is less than the pressure of the combustion. Or else the combustion wouldn't be doing anything. If you swept the apex seal backwards toward the combustion, it would 'cup' the combustion better? The problem in sweeping either way is that the leading vs trailing seal are pointing in opposite ways in relation to the combustion. Perhaps two seals, one pointing each way? Perhaps a triangularly shaped seal?

Crazy ideas sometimes work.
Old 03-08-2012 | 12:11 PM
  #73  
Hi Flying 8's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 185
Likes: 3
From: Colorado
Yea, a slightly wedged shape apex might help that, but the low rpm problem seems to be from the lack of centrifugal force to press the apex against the housing surface and back against the back of the groove. That is why I thought of the slight canting to compensate for the lack of centrifugal force.

Last edited by Hi Flying 8; 03-08-2012 at 12:40 PM.
Old 03-08-2012 | 12:28 PM
  #74  
Mazmart's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,793
Likes: 63
Originally Posted by HiFlite999
I'm not sure I'd call the RX-8 an outright failure. Certainly they expected greater sales than were eventually obtained. However, in sales terms, compared to the FD, the FE was a splendid success. The FE saved the rotary for a decade and created a new generation of fans that were priced out of any chance to buy an FD. Many of those fans could not have justified buying a 2-seat-only car. As I've said before, I'd like to see a rotary-option for the Miata, with another 2+2 or full 4-seat rotary offered in a seperate car.

RX-7 and RX-8 production numbers: https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=169856
HiFlite, there you go again . I could not agree more.

Paul.
Old 03-08-2012 | 01:57 PM
  #75  
dynamho's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,963
Likes: 7
From: Norwood, NJ
Originally Posted by HiFlite999
... and created a new generation of fans that were priced out of any chance to buy an FD. Many of those fans could not have justified buying a 2-seat-only car.
^ I like that.

I don't know what failure criteria are being used in this thread, but didn't the RX-8 recoup development costs and then some?

Doesn't feel like a failure to me at all.


You have already rated this thread Rating: Thread Rating: 0 votes,  average.

Quick Reply: Rotary News: Breakthrough may give Rotary new life



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:48 PM.