Rotary News: Breakthrough may give Rotary new life
03-17-2012, 11:55 PM
#151
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all of the above from 13b but one of the most interesting comments was in the recent wards article
By changing the shape of the troichoid housing, the seals remain flush to the housing, Hitomi says. “In addition to reducing emissions, better sealing improves fuel economy and overall performance
03-18-2012, 08:03 AM
#152
it would be interesting if it is like this:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...TCU0S2rLAw9cgA
and this is one showing how DI can affect the charge--its the hydrogen engine--but its the best visualization I have found.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...TCU0S2rLAw9cgA
and this is one showing how DI can affect the charge--its the hydrogen engine--but its the best visualization I have found.
Last edited by olddragger; 03-18-2012 at 08:07 AM.
03-18-2012, 08:51 AM
#153
You're not thinking about the situation correctly. It's not just a matter of profitability. They're setting sales records already this year over last year. Their problem is exchange rate conversions, not their brand's value. If their sales were down 50% year to year, your statement would make more since.
Tax or not, it's a solution to a problem. Large companies don't pay taxes to begin with. They're simply passed onto the consumer. Essentially what you're saying is that the car would cost more off the showroom in Japan than the USA. That's all.
Here's some info on just how easy it is / would be to import to Japan... Not trying to argue to be an ***, I just find that most of the excuses as to why they couldn't build a 3 rotor, if they actually wanted to, or if there was a market to do so, to be complete BS.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...port-barriers/
Tax or not, it's a solution to a problem. Large companies don't pay taxes to begin with. They're simply passed onto the consumer. Essentially what you're saying is that the car would cost more off the showroom in Japan than the USA. That's all.
Here's some info on just how easy it is / would be to import to Japan... Not trying to argue to be an ***, I just find that most of the excuses as to why they couldn't build a 3 rotor, if they actually wanted to, or if there was a market to do so, to be complete BS.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...port-barriers/
They know its possible, but i dont think u want a rotary car that cost 5 times of what it is
03-19-2012, 08:51 AM
#154
Rockie Mountain Newbie
There's a solution to your "Japanese emissions standards" that a 3 rotor engine "can't" meet, and its extremely simple:
Just don't sell the car that has a 3 rotor engine in Japan.
Really simple.
So simple, in fact, that it makes it plainly obvious to anyone who spends half a second thinking about it, that you realize that if the problem really was Japanese emissions standards preventing Mazda from selling a car with a 3 rotor engine, that they would just sell the car to the people in markets where that level of emissions standards don't exist.
But, since Mazda isn't selling a 3 rotor engine in non-Japanese markets, that there must be something else behind the reason for Mazda not selling a car with a 3 rotor engine in it to any market.
BC.
Just don't sell the car that has a 3 rotor engine in Japan.
Really simple.
So simple, in fact, that it makes it plainly obvious to anyone who spends half a second thinking about it, that you realize that if the problem really was Japanese emissions standards preventing Mazda from selling a car with a 3 rotor engine, that they would just sell the car to the people in markets where that level of emissions standards don't exist.
But, since Mazda isn't selling a 3 rotor engine in non-Japanese markets, that there must be something else behind the reason for Mazda not selling a car with a 3 rotor engine in it to any market.
BC.
03-19-2012, 09:24 AM
#155
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There's a solution to your "Japanese emissions standards" that a 3 rotor engine "can't" meet, and its extremely simple:
Just don't sell the car that has a 3 rotor engine in Japan.
Really simple.
So simple, in fact, that it makes it plainly obvious to anyone who spends half a second thinking about it, that you realize that if the problem really was Japanese emissions standards preventing Mazda from selling a car with a 3 rotor engine, that they would just sell the car to the people in markets where that level of emissions standards don't exist.
But, since Mazda isn't selling a 3 rotor engine in non-Japanese markets, that there must be something else behind the reason for Mazda not selling a car with a 3 rotor engine in it to any market.
BC.
Just don't sell the car that has a 3 rotor engine in Japan.
Really simple.
So simple, in fact, that it makes it plainly obvious to anyone who spends half a second thinking about it, that you realize that if the problem really was Japanese emissions standards preventing Mazda from selling a car with a 3 rotor engine, that they would just sell the car to the people in markets where that level of emissions standards don't exist.
But, since Mazda isn't selling a 3 rotor engine in non-Japanese markets, that there must be something else behind the reason for Mazda not selling a car with a 3 rotor engine in it to any market.
BC.
03-19-2012, 10:49 AM
#156
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It doesn’t matter if Mazda is selling tons of cars if they aren’t in the black then some amount of cost cutting will ensue as they try to position themselves to be in the black. A niche project like the rotary although core to the company’s persona is a hard sell in the current environment Mazda finds itself in.
I’m sure Mazda would love to do a new rotary and perhaps have more than one rotary car but the question is does that make economic sense at the current time. It’s not like they are Apple with 100 billion in cash reserves that they can use for niche product development.
I’m sure Mazda would love to do a new rotary and perhaps have more than one rotary car but the question is does that make economic sense at the current time. It’s not like they are Apple with 100 billion in cash reserves that they can use for niche product development.
03-19-2012, 12:51 PM
#157
It doesn’t matter if Mazda is selling tons of cars if they aren’t in the black then some amount of cost cutting will ensue as they try to position themselves to be in the black. A niche project like the rotary although core to the company’s persona is a hard sell in the current environment Mazda finds itself in.
I’m sure Mazda would love to do a new rotary and perhaps have more than one rotary car but the question is does that make economic sense at the current time. It’s not like they are Apple with 100 billion in cash reserves that they can use for niche product development.
I’m sure Mazda would love to do a new rotary and perhaps have more than one rotary car but the question is does that make economic sense at the current time. It’s not like they are Apple with 100 billion in cash reserves that they can use for niche product development.
Originally Posted by serothis
it would destroy their reputation in Japan. Could you imagine if Ford stopped selling v8 versions of the mustang in the US but still sold it world wide? Ford fans would revolt.
03-19-2012, 12:56 PM
#158
The Michigan "WANKEL"
I'm really liking the direction Mazda is going lately. They're showing technological innovation across the board, and sticking to their "Zoom Zoom" mantra. I really dig the CX-5 as a mini-CUV, and I'm not even a fan of such vehicles. I actually seriously considered getting one to replace my totaled 2012 Focus Titanium daily driver.
03-19-2012, 01:01 PM
#159
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Investors tell it like it is, and they tell it with their wallets.
When Mazda puts on a stock sale that is oversold three times on average, EIGHT times over sold in one market, it means that investors have real faith in Mazda. The rest of the investors (car buyers) are saying the same thing, as their market share continues to increase, both in the US as well as other countries.
Mazda has a pain point right now, but they are hardly dying.
When Mazda puts on a stock sale that is oversold three times on average, EIGHT times over sold in one market, it means that investors have real faith in Mazda. The rest of the investors (car buyers) are saying the same thing, as their market share continues to increase, both in the US as well as other countries.
Mazda has a pain point right now, but they are hardly dying.
03-19-2012, 06:04 PM
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Not necessarily... All they would have to do is charge more for the package in Japan, and make them a special order item. Not to mention the number of engine sales to all the race teams using the current 3 rotor tech when you make them upgrade to the new engines too. I think they could produce more than enough engines to make them cost effective even if they were only installed as an optional component in their "halo" car/package. We're talking what? 3~4 components that cant be shared with the 16x? Thick center iron, eshaft, center stationary gear, center bearing, and counterweight. Metal casting is dirt cheep and Mazda has their own foundries.
Last edited by serothis; 03-19-2012 at 06:08 PM. Reason: pancakes
04-03-2012, 01:00 AM
#162
Mazda needs to quickly emulate VW and build production facilities that can be used to build a wide range of vehicles in the U.S. and maybe in Central or South American, as well.
This would really help them on the path towards sustainable profitability.
Having said this, the currency wars are heating up again, and we're likely to see a wild ride ahead for the value of the yen vs. the USD and euro, as the Bank of Japan really is on a mission to devalue the yen against foreign currencies in order to shore up Japanese manufacturing and exports, but Mazda needs to still hedge against every possibility by diversifying the geographic scope of the manufacture of their parts and components as well as assembly.
This would really help them on the path towards sustainable profitability.
Having said this, the currency wars are heating up again, and we're likely to see a wild ride ahead for the value of the yen vs. the USD and euro, as the Bank of Japan really is on a mission to devalue the yen against foreign currencies in order to shore up Japanese manufacturing and exports, but Mazda needs to still hedge against every possibility by diversifying the geographic scope of the manufacture of their parts and components as well as assembly.
04-03-2012, 08:13 AM
#163
They are working on it. The Mexico plant should be able to help them , they will use that plant to build smaller cars like Mazda3. I hope they can devalue the yen more cuz there are a whole bunch of stuff I wanna buy but right.now it doesn't make any sense, it simply costs too much
Rotary engine cars will always be build in Japan tho, so when the next one comes out don't expect it to be cheap
Rotary engine cars will always be build in Japan tho, so when the next one comes out don't expect it to be cheap
Last edited by nycgps; 04-03-2012 at 08:19 AM.
04-03-2012, 05:11 PM
#164
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I know I am ignorant, but there are two things that I would like Mazda could improve on:
1) Quality of Product/Vehicles
2) Quality of Customer Service
I know that they are really great at R&D and Innovation, and even manufacturing! However, I feel like the materials used in Mazda vehicles are not up to par like maybe those found in Toyota, and/or Honda.
Again, take what I say as a grain of salt, because I don't really know much about this. Just something I have been observing, and feeling, but I don't know the technical/engineering/manufacturing side of Mazda.
1) Quality of Product/Vehicles
2) Quality of Customer Service
I know that they are really great at R&D and Innovation, and even manufacturing! However, I feel like the materials used in Mazda vehicles are not up to par like maybe those found in Toyota, and/or Honda.
Again, take what I say as a grain of salt, because I don't really know much about this. Just something I have been observing, and feeling, but I don't know the technical/engineering/manufacturing side of Mazda.
04-03-2012, 05:22 PM
#165
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I know I am ignorant, but there are two things that I would like Mazda could improve on:
1) Quality of Product/Vehicles
2) Quality of Customer Service
I know that they are really great at R&D and Innovation, and even manufacturing! However, I feel like the materials used in Mazda vehicles are not up to par like maybe those found in Toyota, and/or Honda.
Again, take what I say as a grain of salt, because I don't really know much about this. Just something I have been observing, and feeling, but I don't know the technical/engineering/manufacturing side of Mazda.
1) Quality of Product/Vehicles
2) Quality of Customer Service
I know that they are really great at R&D and Innovation, and even manufacturing! However, I feel like the materials used in Mazda vehicles are not up to par like maybe those found in Toyota, and/or Honda.
Again, take what I say as a grain of salt, because I don't really know much about this. Just something I have been observing, and feeling, but I don't know the technical/engineering/manufacturing side of Mazda.
My girlfriend bought a new Mazda 3S 2.5L and she cross shopped the new Corolla since she was coming out of a 2008 Corolla and the Mazda 3 was better in a 100 ways, the Corolla interior was essentially the same bland crap interior she had in her 2008 Corolla. She also looked at the Civic but the interior in that was way too busy and she just did not like the looks of it even though the quality seemed great. Her 3 now has 30,000 trouble free miles on it and she is now in love with the new CX-5.
I am actually a huge Honda fan and have owned quite a few but the late model styling is for the birds. I also like Nissan but they are lacking in styling amongst the small cars in my opinion. But my mother has a pretty new Altima Coupe and I do like it in and out.
Mazda 3S interior
Corolla interior
04-03-2012, 06:26 PM
#166
Registered
^
On the contrary, I have seen the interior of a Mazda3 and also a Corolla and the Honda...first of all, I do not understand why you had to come off so strongly to what I was saying, especially after I said that "I am ignorant" about the issue.
In any case, I was not talking about interior trim, because I personally love the interior trim. I am talking about raw material quality. And I personally have not done the research myself, but from what I can see and read online and from forums, it seems like there are more people complaining about the poor customer services in Mazda dealerships (at least in Ontario), than other dealerships (and please do not misread what I said to "people complain about Mazda dealerships while no other dealerships have customer service problems", obviously there are).
In addition, there seems to have been more Mazda rusting easily than other brands - again, please do not misread me and think I am saying that other brands does not rust at all.
In any case, there is nothing wrong with what I am saying about Mazda improving their customer service and quality, because those are key success factors in an automotive industry, so I do not understand why you had to react so strongly to what I am saying.
I am a Mazda fan, and Mazda will always be #1 in my heart! I want Mazda to be #1 in the entire world, that is why I am coming up with things I think Mazda can do better, obviously because I care about the company. If I did not, I would not care about giving my two cents about how the company can be more successful in the industry.
Geez...
On the contrary, I have seen the interior of a Mazda3 and also a Corolla and the Honda...first of all, I do not understand why you had to come off so strongly to what I was saying, especially after I said that "I am ignorant" about the issue.
In any case, I was not talking about interior trim, because I personally love the interior trim. I am talking about raw material quality. And I personally have not done the research myself, but from what I can see and read online and from forums, it seems like there are more people complaining about the poor customer services in Mazda dealerships (at least in Ontario), than other dealerships (and please do not misread what I said to "people complain about Mazda dealerships while no other dealerships have customer service problems", obviously there are).
In addition, there seems to have been more Mazda rusting easily than other brands - again, please do not misread me and think I am saying that other brands does not rust at all.
In any case, there is nothing wrong with what I am saying about Mazda improving their customer service and quality, because those are key success factors in an automotive industry, so I do not understand why you had to react so strongly to what I am saying.
I am a Mazda fan, and Mazda will always be #1 in my heart! I want Mazda to be #1 in the entire world, that is why I am coming up with things I think Mazda can do better, obviously because I care about the company. If I did not, I would not care about giving my two cents about how the company can be more successful in the industry.
Geez...
04-03-2012, 09:19 PM
#167
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9k's post didn't come across as "reacting strongly" to me at all...
And 9k, there is only one part of those pictures that needs eyeballing to find the winner. It's the thing sticking up in the lower right of each picture.
And 9k, there is only one part of those pictures that needs eyeballing to find the winner. It's the thing sticking up in the lower right of each picture.
04-04-2012, 03:26 PM
#169
2009 RX-8 Touring
Honestly, looking at the comparison between the MX-3 and the Corolla, they're both about on-par. Mazda has a few more silver-painted bits, brighter colors, and a stickshift. It also lacks the touchscreen GPS/stereo that the Corolla has, and has more angular edges on parts the driver touches, like the steering wheel. I don't think you can really say Mazda is better just because you prefer one trim package vs. another.
The real reason for liking the MX-3 better is under the hood.
The real reason for liking the MX-3 better is under the hood.
04-05-2012, 05:29 PM
#170
Registered User
Japanese People are really amazing. TtHis are really interesting news I'm really looking forward to see and drive a car with these engines.
05-16-2012, 11:14 PM
#172
Registered
I think I've got it figured out. At least from a geometry standpoint. The clue was in the statement about the trochoid dimensions but the answer is actually in one of the videos talking about the skyactiv gasoline engine improvements. It was mentioned on the piston engines that a big key to increasing efficiency is in the thermal aspect which means they need a better volume to surface ratio. A large bore and short stroke engine has a larger total cylinder surface area than one that has a smaller bore but longer stroke but the same displacement. The larger surface area will lose heat faster. Heat is just lost energy.
The 16X engine had a narrower combustion chamber but larger total diameter (internally). It's relative stroke, aka eccentric lobe offset, however remained the same geometrically. They were trying to increase efficiency by maximizing the volume compared to the very large surface area of the rotary. It also helped during combustion as the flame front typically never gets towards the outsides of the rotors even though it may get farther through the chamber along the length of the rotor. This was just the beginning though. More was yet to be had and this is where I think this "breakthrough" lies.
I believe they did change the actual shape a bit. The way they could have done this is to increase the "stroke" with a greater eccentric lobe offset. This would by default change the trochoid and rotor shape dimensions as well. The chamber would be even more figure 8 shaped and the rotors would be more triangular. It doesn't have to be drastic though. This shape change would answer the question about how the seals can actually seal better. The apex seals would be traveling at an average speed that is faster than they do now, even with the same displacement engine. You can run a rotary engine with no apex seal springs if you can get it started. You just have to hold the rpms up a bit. The faster they move, the better they seal. At least as long as they don't run into a chatter issue like the older seals did. This can be held to a minimum with seal design. The combination of a faster average apex seal speed combined with a higher volume to surface ratio inside the engine would bring about a more efficient and cleaner engine. If they add in the direct injection with proper spray pattern aimed at specific points rather than just the arbitrary fine mist, as weird as this sounds, could more evenly allow a better air fuel mixture which again would leave less waste. This means less heat to the cooling systems and out the exhaust. A more efficient engine leads to one of two other things. One is that the engine can make the same power but be smaller in displacement than the 13B. The other is that it an keep the same size but have an increase in power. Now keep in mind that a longer "stroke" will most certainly mean a lower rpm limit.
I admit this is a guess on my part but it is one based on all of their skyactiv designs applied to the rotary. It all fits. Only time will tell if this is what is being done and any exact dimensions or the extent of the changes is a mystery at this point but I think this is where they are going with it. Then again, maybe I'm completely wrong.
The 16X engine had a narrower combustion chamber but larger total diameter (internally). It's relative stroke, aka eccentric lobe offset, however remained the same geometrically. They were trying to increase efficiency by maximizing the volume compared to the very large surface area of the rotary. It also helped during combustion as the flame front typically never gets towards the outsides of the rotors even though it may get farther through the chamber along the length of the rotor. This was just the beginning though. More was yet to be had and this is where I think this "breakthrough" lies.
I believe they did change the actual shape a bit. The way they could have done this is to increase the "stroke" with a greater eccentric lobe offset. This would by default change the trochoid and rotor shape dimensions as well. The chamber would be even more figure 8 shaped and the rotors would be more triangular. It doesn't have to be drastic though. This shape change would answer the question about how the seals can actually seal better. The apex seals would be traveling at an average speed that is faster than they do now, even with the same displacement engine. You can run a rotary engine with no apex seal springs if you can get it started. You just have to hold the rpms up a bit. The faster they move, the better they seal. At least as long as they don't run into a chatter issue like the older seals did. This can be held to a minimum with seal design. The combination of a faster average apex seal speed combined with a higher volume to surface ratio inside the engine would bring about a more efficient and cleaner engine. If they add in the direct injection with proper spray pattern aimed at specific points rather than just the arbitrary fine mist, as weird as this sounds, could more evenly allow a better air fuel mixture which again would leave less waste. This means less heat to the cooling systems and out the exhaust. A more efficient engine leads to one of two other things. One is that the engine can make the same power but be smaller in displacement than the 13B. The other is that it an keep the same size but have an increase in power. Now keep in mind that a longer "stroke" will most certainly mean a lower rpm limit.
I admit this is a guess on my part but it is one based on all of their skyactiv designs applied to the rotary. It all fits. Only time will tell if this is what is being done and any exact dimensions or the extent of the changes is a mystery at this point but I think this is where they are going with it. Then again, maybe I'm completely wrong.
05-17-2012, 10:51 AM
#173
Registered
/\
I actually read that post
That's some serious engineering there man. Seriously, quite interesting ideas. I even showed your post to a friend who is a mechanical engineer - and rotary enthusiast - and he liked it too.
You should be working for Mazda
I actually read that post
That's some serious engineering there man. Seriously, quite interesting ideas. I even showed your post to a friend who is a mechanical engineer - and rotary enthusiast - and he liked it too.
You should be working for Mazda
05-17-2012, 11:58 AM
#174
RG,
Do you know why the 13A that was built for a couple of years in Japan for Mazda's front wheel drive car back in the '80's, (I think)? It had the width of the 12A but larger trochoidal dimensions, but I don't know how the eccentricity was.
It seems that it is somewhat the same as what you might recommend to attain the Skyactive attributes.
Do you know why the 13A that was built for a couple of years in Japan for Mazda's front wheel drive car back in the '80's, (I think)? It had the width of the 12A but larger trochoidal dimensions, but I don't know how the eccentricity was.
It seems that it is somewhat the same as what you might recommend to attain the Skyactive attributes.
05-17-2012, 12:59 PM
#175
RG,
Do you know why the 13A that was built for a couple of years in Japan for Mazda's front wheel drive car back in the '80's, (I think)? It had the width of the 12A but larger trochoidal dimensions, but I don't know how the eccentricity was.
It seems that it is somewhat the same as what you might recommend to attain the Skyactive attributes.
Do you know why the 13A that was built for a couple of years in Japan for Mazda's front wheel drive car back in the '80's, (I think)? It had the width of the 12A but larger trochoidal dimensions, but I don't know how the eccentricity was.
It seems that it is somewhat the same as what you might recommend to attain the Skyactive attributes.
Paul.