Mr. Pockets

I don't find that to be typical at all, hence my recommendation. I have no idea what the OP's experience is. I've seen some people go to their first event and immediately show they know what they're doing. That's rare, in my experience.

The reason for my 'horse$hit' advice is that, while r-comps have a higher coefficient of friction, they aren't as forgiving. When they let go, they really let go. You have to be a pretty precise driver already to take full advantage of them. I suppose there's something to be said for dropping somebody off into the deep end, though.

The OP also suggested ('I'm not made of money') that price was a concern. So I suggested a significant improvement that wouldn't involve buying a dedicated set of wheels and fitting them with $1000 tires that, in the end, last about a couple hours of use. For a novice none of us have seen drive, they might not even last that long.

edj

the idea behind using street tires first is that R-compound tires can hide driver
errors due to higher grip levels that would be revealed by street tires. in other
words, if you are not using *all* the car's capabilities then street tires will help
you detect driver errors easier. but once you are using all the car, the R tires are
a lot more fun.

the Evolution instructors i've had never told me to start on street tires as their
Phase 1 & 2 courses concentrate on driver technique and not car setup.

learycd

iTrader: (1)

yeah, i understand what you guys are saying regarding jumping right into R compounds and i really dont think thats something im looking to do at this point, since the summer is gonna be over before i know it, and i dont think ill be able to make it out to enough events for it to be worth the money

in terms of my driving, im no freak of nature autox prodigy lol but im pretty decent with respect to my understand of what i should and shouldnt be doing. my driving style is a little reserved id rather keep a smooth constant flow through the course rather than trying to get from gate to gate the fastest with hard braking. and as i mentioned im not the fastest guy on the track

but i really would like to know how important would you say getting out of these cruddy all seasons and into some performance summer/street tirese is for autocrossing? cause i would need to be on the lookout for a new set of wheels as well then if i wanna run two sets, one for street one for race

thanks again, and it seems like R vs street is just a matter of driver skill and wallet size

EDIT: i am only asking because ive only autocrossed in these tires, i dont know how big the difference would be coming out of all seasons

Mr. Pockets

And I answered that question.

Getting a set of decent street tires would be a significant improvement, if for no other reason than they'd be a more consistent platform for you to learn on. They will still overheat, so you may need to use water to keep them cool, but you can drive on them every day.

xsnipersgox

i'd say get out of ur all season.. but then.. i am in texas =/

learycd

iTrader: (1)

oh sorry about that, i must have thought u were talking about R compounds, with all that debate going on. i think thats my next step then

but the good thing is i dont think my cars ever gonna see snow so i think ill be ok

clyde

Is it best to tell someone brand new to go get R comps when they dive bomb every corner using the steering wheel as the brake? What about those that are so afraid of the throttle, they never put it down more than 3/4 of the way and never pull more than 0.6g in a turn? Seems like it's telling them to spend a lot of money and exert a lot of effort on tire changes that aren't going to help much, if at all.

In my experience of instructing novices, they fall into that category with far greater frequency than those that "get it" quickly.

OTOH, most of the novices I see are somewhere in between. For them, before making a recommendation on tires, I'd want to get a feel for how competitive they want to be, what they want to get out of autocrossing, and what kind of budget they're working with. I don't want to try and throw them in the deep end when they're just looking to have fun on an occasional Sunday morning and trying to develop/improve their driving skills.

If I tell them they have to go spend a couple thousand dollars on wheels, tires, and some tools, then do a bunch of tire changes in 90 degree/90% humidity weather in order to spend 6 hours standing in a parking lot just so they can get 5 minutes worth of seat time...how many of them are going to keep coming back? Especially when they spend that money and make that effort and still come in 5 or more seconds behind the local class leader.

At the same time, if someone is capable enough to be competitive locally (or even nationally) right off the bat, pointing them towards R comps probably isn't going to hurt them, so why not?

Seems to me that the right answer is, "It depends."

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

+1

I'm with Clyde.

As the novice coordinator for my local BRR-SCCA region, I only make recommendations after I've had a chance to undertsand what the student truly wants to get out of the sport as well as the budget their working with.

FWIW, the best student I ever instructed was actually an STU driver -- so I steered him towards RE-01r's and Neovas . He showed up with RE-01r's at the next event and took a Top 10 PAX.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Every newbie I have ever seen does this no matter what they are on. Hell I still see "experienced" drivers doing this. Tires wont change that.

learycd

iTrader: (1)

thanks guys you all have been really helpful

seems like all of you are very experienced in autox which is great. what would u say the biggest mistake most ametuers make? (i know thats kinda hard to define haha)

hopefully i can work on it this weekend at a porsche club event. i really love the sport and i wanna learn as much as possible, so im trying to get out as much as possible

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

They don't use the brakes at the right time. You are not trying to out brake the next guy. Brake early, and get back on the gas early.

xsnipersgox

i don't know, for me, the biggest improvement was to brake hard, brake early, and smooth out the inputs. it's always better to plant the anchor down early than late, and take late apex as you want to maximize time on the throttle.

oh.. on slaloms, keep the throttle on about mid way? it's a good starting point.

be mindful of your weight shifting when you are going through turns and slaloms.

HeavyMetal699

Braking is the hardest thing to figure out. I still dive bomb a corner or 2 every event.

Sure staring at a course map you see that the turning radius would be alot less so you would have to slow down more to take the turn, but in the drivers seat its hard (for me) to gauge how fast is too fast. And many courses are laid out to confuse the driver(decreasing radius turns!).

With my horrible street tires I feel like I get stuck between choosing to come in too fast or slowing down to the point where I'm going to have to shift down to first to do anything but slowly accelerate the next 100 yards. And there is nothing worse than flooring the gas and looking down at the console to see if the car is still on because you have no acceleration.


I'm hoping to get R-compounds next next year.

StrokerAce

Get the Koni's first.

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

Besides the pointers that Jason and xsnipergox mentioned, I'd also add the following:

1) Looking ahead. Always try to look at least 2-3 seconds ahead of where your car is on course. Use your periphery vision to pick up nearby cones. This will allow you to set up for elements sooner and not be caught off guard.

2) Coasting on course i.e. periods when you're not using your brakes or the throttle. While they're always exceptions (e.g. a quick lift to settle the car or to shift weight towards the front tires), you generally want to be either on the gas or braking especially when driving a "momentum" car like the RX-8.

mwood

In case anyone's interested, here's a link to the street tire/R tire thread I started on the SCCA Forums board...btw, for those getting started in autocrossing, or looking to take it up a notch, there's a lot of very good information on that board from very knowledgeable sources, including many National champs.

http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/31037...ad.aspx#310374

ZoomZoom28

Also take advantage of the school offers by the local club. MotorSports NE has one coming up in 2 weeks. Or ask the instructors at the event to drive your car, you'll be amazed how fast they can go on street tires.

Here's Andy Hollis's Top Ten Solo Tips - http://www.dmvrscca.org/topten.htm

mulkio

i put NITTO NT01s on my stock 18" wheels , it made a huge difference!!!
u can get em for approx. 180.00ea

FRANCES

Where are they that cheap?

bingo

Here's something I got from Andy Hollis on the Miata (the ultimate momentum car ) forums a few years ago (we are talking about hard gas/hard brake, I do see you are talking more about coasting above

Astral

Try to go to an event where you can have an instructor drive your car. This shows time potential in your car. If you are hitting times very close to those of the instructor (driving your car), then you are driving well. Otherwise, there's lots and lots to learn (and still have a lot of fun with).

Drive with an instructor riding along, as much as possible. Feedback from every run is very useful. Once you get your driving to the point where the instructor says that you're getting everything right, then you can work on squeezing more speed out of that w/o an instructor. But even then I would maintain an instructor for feedback on whether you're adding speed correctly and in the right places.

So if you are just trying to have fun and improve your driving skills, I would not be so worried about any super-sticky tires. If you're actually trying to competitive in some class, well, then go ahead and load up on R-comps and such.

For tires, edgeracing.com has Sumitomo Htrz III for $116/pop in 245/40/18, which was well-tested by TireRack. There's also Falken Fk452 for $137/pop.

I recently had to get new tires and I almost went with the Falken Fk452, but then I decided to go for some really sticky and really short life tires and went with Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs.

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

Correct -- I'm talking about 'coasting' and Hollis is talking about something slightly different.

What I see a lot of novices doing, is getting on the gas hard in a fast section and coasting for 3-4 car lengths before getting on the brake pedal for a braking zone. That's lost time and I try to show them the benefit of braking early and being back on the gas early when I drive the same section in their car later on.

Like Hollis mentioned, autcross does require a lot of speed maintenance -- which in many instances requires throttle modulation.

mulkio

discount tire direct 225/40/18 $181.00ea 03/08

docgatorx8er

iTrader: (10)

I just read this on another forum.

"Autocrossing and to an extent Road Racing is all about getting the car to transition as fast and stable as possible. It can be getting the car (specifically the cars momentum) to move front to back under acceleration, back to front under braking or side to side under corning. Ideally what you want is a good balance between the front and rear brakes that will both help stop the car the most effiectenly but can also aid in helping to bring the rear of the car around entering turns.

Looking at an OEM type braking system from the factory, cars are heavily biased towards the front brakes for safety. Simply, manufactures do not want the rears to grab as much or more than the front brakes as this will mostly likely cause a spin with the slightest turn of the wheel under hard braking. They do this by making sure that most of the brake pressure goes to the front calipers/pads. Another way they do this is by size of the brakes. The front brakes are always bigger than the rears and/or the rear pads are normally not as aggressive as the fronts.

Knowing this we can use the cars brakes to help "turn" the car especially into tight slow turns by changing how much work the rear brakes do in relation to the fronts.

The most common way race cars do it is with a mechanical **** in the car which the driver can just adjust during a race to allow more or less brake pressure to the rear. Since 99% of us do not have such devices in our cars, we have to use another.

The absolute simplest way to make a brake bias adjustment is to simply change the pads. We will use a stock Miata as an example. The stock Miatas from the factory are notorious for wanting to lock the front and having the rear do almost no work.

One thing that can be done is to put a less grippy pad up front. This will allow you to push harder on the brake pedal before locking the front wheels and generate more braking force out of the rears. The down side is that normally a "lesser" pad than what comes from the factory will usually mean that you will have some heat and fade issues as the brakes heat up.

Another thing that can be done is leave the factory fronts alone and replace the rears with a more grippy pad. One that has more initial bit and higher coefficient of friction than the factory pad. That will generate more work from the rear while using the same amount of pedal pressure in relation to the front.

So when choosing a pad, it is important to knowing your operating temps that you will be running at, understand what you need the pads to do for you, and then choose the correct combination that will get the desired result. Ultimately there is quit a bit of time that you can find with brakes. A good setup will allow you to stay on the gas longer, brake later, turn faster and give you the confidence to push a little harder. It will also take a bit of seat time to get used to what a good brake setup will gain you over OEM pads."

So, specifically what are people using for brakes setups here?

coneninja

iTrader: (1)

Here's a relative, question. I run B-stock class, so of course I've still got my street tires. I have Kumho's ECSTA SPT's. I've been running trial by error tire pressures. I'm wondering if there's an average pressure to run. Currently it seems like the tires are most effective when I have the front's down to about 30psi and the rears at 34-36 psi. I'm also cooling the tires between runs.

Also, on a side note, of course it's more fun running with the DSC off, but is it more effective to run with it on?

Open to anyones opinion!

Thanks!