RACING = WHEEL TO WHEEL ACTION, going three wide into a turn, out braking, out thinking, having more ***** and occasionally swapping paint and parts.

Why does every person that wants to try their car on a track refer to this as racing????????

Learn the term HPDE and use it.

Not the first inappropriately titled thread on this.

 

Second post from the OP:


So it sounds like he wants to try DE/etc to see if it's for him, and then move into the racing scene. I think everyone's advice is valid aside from the "avoid NASA" rant, thought I'm sure the perspective is appreciated.

 

Thats not a rant, its an opinion

 

Maybe you should bother reading the thread first before you add your two cents. The guy isn't interested in HPDE; he just mentioned it as a learning tool.

No wonder this board has a reputation as being a bunch of dicks.

 

Exactly! Which is why I recommend just getting instruction rather than doing HPDE- you will learn more and its more cost effective. Last weekend at two different NASA events in two different states several of my friends gave me the "I just dont know about NASA, think Im done there" story. No need to get into specifics, its just their views.
Two weeks ago I rented out my RX-8 to a fellow from California for an SCCA Comp School and Double Regional weekend. This guy had done many HPDE's with "instruction" (the free kind) and yet did not know how to drive much at all. By the end of the weekend he not only got his Regional Comp License, knock several seconds from his laptimes, he won his rookie race. He did not miss a single session on the track. This was much cheaper for him, even with airfare than buying a racecar (which he has no room to store) transporting it to the track (which he has no vehicle to do so), and all the tools and equipment involved to run a car around a track. All he had to do was get in the car and drive and get out of the car and think about his driving. He never had to worry about anything to do with the car at all, except to get in and drive. In fact, he could rent an entire season of races (6 events, 10 races) from us for less than what it cost to just purchase a decent Spec Miata, let alone put tires on it, drag it around, etc.

Again, and in all honesty, there are dozens of very very skilled Professional race drivers out there who will be glad to spend a day with you teaching you how to drive a racecar. Money and time are limited things these days, spend wisely!

 

The guy did one autocross, from what I understand has never been on a track and has never even done an HPDE and he wants to start "racing".

This is like saying;

"I want to be a pornstar"

Q; "Ok, what's your sexual experience, level"

A; "Um, eh, I think I saw a tit on tv once but I am not sure"

What he wants to do is get on track. Learn a bit and then decide. This aint racing (which is fine).

 

every thing has its place. High Performance Driving Education---is just that. It's not ever been nor intended as the same as racing.
Some people that want to run their car on track have never even driven their car over 100mph ( just an example), dont know what a corner worker is, nor the meaning of the different flags. When you start kindergarden you are not expected to already know how to read.
I personally take offense when someone says HPDE is a waste of time. I guess those people just started driving "flat out".
Yes HPDE only takes you so far--thats its purpose. You dont get a racing license by just going to hpde. Everyone should know that?
What hpde does do is teach you some basics, gives you some experience in car control on a road course and it allows you to met a LOT of people that have been racing for years that are willing and eager to share most of what they know.
NASA instructor are no good and teach bad habits? Dude you need a different instructor. The ones I have met, rode with and have rode with me have all contributed. They also know their limits and can recommend different professional racing instructors whose style should be a match for you and the type of car you have. Yes HPDE only goes so far--and thats the point.
Yes the rx8 is a great track car--its pretty stout--as I have said. Its a good car--but not the best for a beginner..
It is a good idea to rent a car first ( after you have earned your racing license) , but that is expensive and most w/e warriors dont have that budget.

 

I think what we're seeing here are two different track driving goals and two different ways of approaching them.

I'm going to take a stab that if someone is looking to get into wheel-to-wheel racing that they wouldn't be seeking advice from an enthusiast forum. Before anyone accuses me of hating, I'll just say that wheel to wheel racing isn't something you just "decide" to do one afternoon and a few months later you're racing in competition. If so, you're a much much more wealthy person than 99% of the people I normally share the track with.

Hard core competition and club racing are two totally different things. Different vehicle requirements, different costs, and different demands.

Total 100% opinion. All NASA regions are not created equal. The AZ NASA region is fantastic, has a lot of talented and experienced drivers and provide excellent instruction to people who do even the HPDE programs. As far as I can tell, no one here said that HPDE was actually racing, although some HPDE drivers seem to act like it is from time to time.

HPDE is not designed to teach you driving skill either. It is designed to teach you how to share the track with other drivers. How to pass properly, how to yield to faster cars, and how to stay safe even when 30 or 40 cars are on the track at the same time. Driving skill in the AZ region HPDE4 is vastly superior to HPDE2 because advanced drivers have more seat time and must grow in skill otherwise they are a danger to themselves and others.

So let's all just back up. What exactly is the goal here? Are you looking to get an RX8 that is street driven and tracked with the intention of maybe getting into competition racing later? If so, an HPDE program is a great way to go. It requires much less initial investment and is much more relaxed on safety gear and car preparation. With race group participation, you have to be stripped, caged, and have thousands in safety gear. This includes racing seats, harnesses, fire suppression systems etc.

Wheel to wheel racing is expensive. I also wouldn't advise jumping head first into it unless you can afford expensive instruction and have the time and facilities to maintain a car. Sure, renting a car is possible, however I have yet to see a weekend rental for less than $2,500 and that is the friend discount.

Our NASA region also provides local Time Attack competition as well as Time Trial groups. Anyone trying to justify their manliness will tell you TT or TA isn't "Racing" but anything that is timed is considered competition and THAT is racing.

d walker, I respect your opinion but painting all organizations with the same brush is pretty narrow sighted unless you and the OP would be driving in the same group. Our SCCA group here in Arizona does next to nothing except autocross and...frankly...have their noses so far in the air that I can't even drive my car to autocross with a NASA sticker without being sneered at.

Everyone has their opinion as to which starting point is best. It all depends on your end goals. I, myself, have no intention of driving for a Grand Am team or even being able to afford seat time in a fully prep'd race car. So, I use my street car which I have slowly built over the last 6 years. Risky? Sure. However, the risk is rewarded with much lower operating costs. When race weekends cost me nothing more than rubber and fuel I'd say that's a win.

Just decide on your goals and that will determine which direction you will go. Getting everyone's opinion on what is and isn't real racing and what you should do first won't yield a consensus. Everyone here has different goals, a lot different financial situations and different connections in the community.

 

There are very many opinions here! I'ts hard to keep track of all of them. I basically want to start getting into racing. If buying a car and building up to racing standards is too expensive then I will consider other options. I'm not super rich, but this is what I want to put my money towards, and hope someday it pays off. I would like to buy a car that will be able to compete against others in events and receive money if I win. Starting out for the first year I would like to put my money towards a car, and maybe a racing school. I've heard Skip Barber was a pretty good one. For the first year or so I will just casually track my car and get to know it and get a feel for racing. After that first year I will start entering competitions to race against other people. I am not exactly sure what type of racing I would like to do yet. I have slightly researched the types and racing groups. I'm wondering what type of races an RX8 can be entered into, or if there are way better cars out there. What class would race against RX8's and what are the restrictions? I don't wanna buy a turbo or a bunch of engine upgrades either and not be able to enter races. I'm grateful for everyone's ideas and opinions on here and really appreciate it.

 

You will never make money out of racing. You won't receive money if you win. Even in F1 the championship prize is much smaller than what teams spend, real money is in the sponsors there.
Nobody makes money with racing, except factory supported teams in big serieses (fia gt and so on) so forget about that.

 

Grand-Am has an ST class for which an RX-8 can be prepped for. It costs about $100,000 to get a stock RX-8 to the point that you can race it. Alternatively, you can rent a seat in another team's car for $20,000 to $40,000 for just the 1 race.



You clearly have no idea how race series rules work though.

Every series has it's own rule-set, and usually each class within each series has it's own ruleset as well. You pick the series and class you want to run in, and build your car to match.

In the end though, racing costs A LOT of money. If you are terrible or unlucky, it will cost you A LOT of money and your car. If you are good, it will cost you A LOT of money, but you will feel good about it.

 

even crap can races cost a good bit of money!

 

I know many people who make money racing, including to a lesser degree myself. This is a semi common misperception. Teams Make money racing or they go out of business. Sponsorship in road racing is something that is always somewhat elusive, so most teams are set up as businesses.

No. Really strange what people think these things costs. To prep a RX-8 for GA or WC racing is less than 60K. Bear with me here:

Base car- $3500 or so, I picked up my light front end hit for $3500, running and driving. I spent $250 to have the guys down the street pull the frontend back straight.
RB ECU upgrade- $400
Intake-$150- dont bother with an off the shelf unit, I can supply a parts list
Header- Dont bother with an off the shelf unit, the ones we use cost about 13-1500
Exhaust- another $500-ish depending on who builds it
Seat- 500
nets-300
Steering Wheel- $200
cage- $3000 (depending on who does it)
fire system- $600
fuel system- dry break setup- $1K
Shocks- Koni or AST only, $4000
Sway bars- fnt- $500, rear modified stock
Wheels- 2 sets of RPF1's is a good start, I buy at a reduced price but figure even retail around $2000
Brake pads- $180 fnt , 180 rear, and I always buy three or so sets at a time.
Aim Dash- not 100% nec but I like it. $3000
Radio kit- $1000 for the basic 2-man system with car kit etc.

So about $22,000, depending on your taste and ability to find bargains.
You will need to add another $375 for a transponder in SCCA Pro, or whatever the current rate of the GA harness.







Racing does cost a lot of money. Getting started in racing costs money. SO spend that money wisely. If you have never been on track before, dont just go out and buy a racecar. Go out and rent a racecar for a trackday and get some instruction. If you like that, rent a car and do a drivers school. If you get your license go out rent a car snd do some races.

I also thought long and hard about some of the comments above about HPDE etc.
When I started racing, there was no HPDE, and tracks were not open to the public at all. Living in TN the closest track was Memphis, and otherwise I was driving no matter what. I did some autocrosses, rented some time in a couple of cars on test and practice days and managed to get my comp license, and go racing.
NASA etc. did not exist, nor did HPDE. I have a deep belief that street cars should not be allowed on a track at speed, let alone in traffic at speed and there is absolutely nothing anyone can say to change that. Its just not safe.

 

I honestly think mr. walker is pretty accurate with costs considering he itemized a list. I just built my car last year and somewhere I have an itemized build sheet. Total cost was about 25k. Lots of little things add up fast like hood pins and crap like that. The only 2 big things I see missing from that list was the 5.11 rearend and labor if your not doing it on your own. if your not doing it on your own and you're paying someone then add 50% more to your cost. Oh and if your not getting help from a professional then expect to be 4-5 second off the pace from the car setup alone, not counting driver talent.

As far as making money... I think most grand-am drivers are paid. (and even some continental drivers). But to get to that point you will spend a lot to get noticed first.

Stephen

PS walker is talking from real experience not just from hearsay! I grew up in the pits and wouldn't ever dream of renting a car but that is because I have the friends and resources to build a car. If you don't have that then renting through a professional team is invaluable. No worries on car prep and you get advice, knowledge, and coaching from someone that knows...

 

Almost forgot... RX8 is basically done considering professional racing. walker may know exactly how many more years of eligability... Without vested interest from Mazda it will fall farther and farther behind in the next few years.

Stephen

 

That's true for the bigger, winning teams in a limited number of serieses. Most drivers pay to drive, that's the truth.

 

Yup! Only the lucky that know someone or already paid a lot at some point get paid eventually! I think your more likely to make money racing if you start a business and get paid by other drivers...

 

your last post explained a lot dwalker. Most cars/drivers that sign up for hpde with nasa are not basic street cars. Yes a select few are--but they are never allowed to get into a non safe situation. The car has to be safe ( braking, battery tie down, no windshield cracks etc etc) and according to the car--the speeds will widely vary. Distance is maintained between cars in a very conservative way. ( much better than being on the interstate lol).
HPDE in the initial classes 1 and 2 is not about racing at all--its about how to drive your car in a safe manner at speed. Yes some of that knowledge will follow into racing--thats expected.
In 1-2 its about smoothness and being able to focus on more than one thing at the time. Where is your car and where do you want to go, where are all the other cars and where does it look like they are going, where are the corner workers, how is your car responding, do I need to brake earlier, or later, what gear do I use for this and that, how do I get to the gear I need ( heel and toe practice for some) , learn to do basic left foot braking....etc --you get the idea.
What HPDE 1-2 is not- its not about trying to go faster so you can catch the other guy, it is not about winning a race period.
Now when you start getting into the advaced classes 3 and 4 in which there is open passing ( with point bys in most cases) more advanced driving techniques are taught. This is the area in which a decision needs to be made by the individual---this is when safety equipment needs to be upgraded or the driver needs to dial it back a couple of notches. This is when personnel professional instruction is needed and recommended for those that dont want to dial it back.
HPDE is a good enviroment for the person with no track experience to begin in. Its NOT prep program for wheel to wheel.

I agree that road racing can be gotten into for the amount of money being quoated. But, you have to remember the associated costs also--towing and towing equipment, car maintanence ( the rx8 engine life on track is not that long if you demand peak power), tires, breakage, etc etc.
You didnt mention anything about your engine or needed supporting mods for the engine?
Dont get me wrong--i think you did good and I can now see where you are coming from. Makes more sense to me now.
I just dont think that the RX8 is a contender anymore. Its a damn shame too--but the engine lacks-- and you cant get around that ( or the rules lol).

 

It sounds like he knows what he wants to do and was asking for advice on how to get started. He wasn't saying "HPDE = racing." You berating him for something he didn't even say isn't productive. I only did my first HPDE after I'd done about a half-dozen W2W races.

 

Once again, time to correct mis-conceptions-

No. All teams operate somewhat differently, but rent-a-ride folks like myself get paid to provide a service like anything else, win or lose. Winning helps to sell the car at a premium and can create a demand, but there are always drivers out there looking for rides, the question usually comes down to if they are a good fit for the team.

I also make a little cash by renting my cars out for club racing and driving schools. In fact MOST people who make money in racing do it this way. Renting makes a LOT more sense than owning in todays society of HOA's, small garages, etc. that make the logistics of owning a racecar somewhat complicated.

Lastly, "sponsors" is a misused term. Partnerships is where you get money from, and that is all about ROI, not your win/loss record. Companies about to shell out 100K over the course of a season could care less if you win, they care about how much your on TV, which corporate functions/store openings/car shows/etc. the car with thier logo visible is going to be at. They care about your website and blog, how many hits your last video got on youtube and what sort fo revenue you generated for your other marketing partners. The guy sitting across the desk from you could just as easily stick that money into 100 billboards in the midwest, and the only thing thats going to get him to endorse a check being cut to you is if there is hard evidence there is a good chance that business will see increased revenue from traffic, sales, or whatever it is they do. The worst possible thing you can do when you approach a potential partner is tell him how many races you have won or finished top 3 and rattle on about how competitive you are this season before you even mention how your going to solve his problem of how to increase revenue. Learn the terms ROI, DMA, etc. and maybe take a class in marketting if you want to get someone to pay for your racing.

I am fairly familiar with HPDE and its "stages", but again, it wrong. Letting a car go out and motor around a racetrack at speeds of 100mph plus without proper safety gear is wrong, to allow it in a crowd is near lunacy. I completely understand there is no "racing" in HPDE, BUT lets be honest here- your out on the track with your lap timer in the car and your trying to better your lap, and so is the guy next to you, and that my friends is racing, albiet clumsy. I have done HPDE in PCA, and in fact let me relate a story:

I was at Little Talledega many years ago and a fellow instructor brought is freshly tuned (430whp) 930 slope out. In talking we decided to go out for a few laps between my students- I was instructing- to give my opinion on the power delivery etc. The car was way fast. Running counter-clockwise the driver was trying to keep the car in boost as he exited the dogleg into the left hander followed by a short straight. The tires had a few too many laps on them and he just couldnt do it and the more he tried and failed the more frustrated he got. Finally he exits onto the left hander and rockets down the short straight, barely getting the car hauled down in time for the left-hander leading onto the back straight, where he went WOT agian. He was so aggravated that he missed his braking point at the end of the straight and we went clean off the track into the the very tall weeds. At that point he finally just let it go and had a good laugh and we went in. I was a bit ticked because he was not listening to anything I had to say, and it would have been a shame to write off a pristine original factory 930 slopenose. We had a good talk and the PCA steward chewed his ***, so all in all a lucky outcome.

That event however changed how I look at street cars on racetracks. Racetracks are not a safe alternative to the street. They might be safe-er, but they are not a safe place for cars without safety equipment, as they are designed with the fact the cars that will be using them have safety gear and the drivers are suited up. Again, this is something no one will ever be able to convince me of otherwise, so we should move on.

This is the last year Mazda will support the RX-8 in professional racing, but I can run the cars in WC for another 4-5 years if I choose. I dont know what support Mazda could be pulling, because other than the Pro Parts program we get very little from them.

My engines are bone stock. In fact, the engine that we ran in the 07 car last year has been in the car for many many races and is still going, although I am pulling it today for a fresh engine I will assemble today. That engine is a junkyard engine. Literally pulled from a crashed RX-8. I gave you my entire mod list- headers, intake, and RB flash. With this combination I make 225 or so whp.

I never forget the associated costs of racing, which is why I advise everyone to RENT!! No need for a trailer, truck, storage for those and the race car, no need to worry about tires, or adding/changing/etc oil or other fluids. For $2000 you can rent my RX-8 for a club race weekend, with you being responsible for paying your entry, fuel used, any tires damaged or flat-spotted, any damage to the car, and your personal expenses. We do all transport, provide the crew, maintain the car for the weekend etc. and all you do is drive. ASSuming you go buy a SM for 10K, you could have already run 3 events in a prepped car for less than the cost of just getting one home, and hove none of the issues or added costs. In that package you also get a car equipped with a data system and people who actually know how to use it and there is NOTHING that will help you develop faster as a driver than data and good interpretation of it.
If you want to do a test day out at HPR or PPIR, figure $800-1000 bucks for the day and tire costs should you choose to use new tires. This gets you a prepped car at the track with crew ready to test or instruct. If you want an instructor there you just pay them for thier time, we have several to choose from.
Now once you have decided you want an open-wheeler ( I rent Formula Vees too) or a sedan or a sports car, then you can go buy the car you want and make an educated decision and spend your money wisely. The easiest way to spend a lot of money racing and never actually race is to buy the wrong car.

Racing, its easily the sport most filled with BS spread by people who only dream about doing it and regurgitate information they hear from people who say they do but never have.

 

http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/b...sional-racing/
...

 

You do understand that I actually run in World Challenge, and deal with drivers etc. on a daily basis right?

Let me let you in on the real reality-

ALL DRIVERS, with the exception of pure factory teams like GM/Ford/Cadillac, are paying to be there, either with the money they bring in personally or the marketting partnerships the team creates around them. Even in NASCAR, thats how it works. A team is a business. A driver is a replaceable part of the car, and if they dont bring money or mean money, they arent getting far. Whether that money they bring is thier personal fortune, gifts from friends, life savings, or from doing a good job selling partnerships, doesnt matter. They write a check to a team. If they are smart, they work in a little something or themselves.


EDIT again- If you want a competetive season long ride in a WCTC plan on spending about 10-12k per race, or about $120-130K per season currently. Thats a true arrive a drive deal, obviously things change from team to team. But I digress...

 

My number was actually quoted to me by Freedom Motorsports, running Grand-Am ST class. Lime Rock 2010, and one of their Miatas got tore up, and we were discussing what it would take, and he went through the discussion about finding out if the cage was bent at all or not. And under the "if it is bent", meant replacing the car, and "all told, about $100k" to get it ready to pass inspection and up to the speed that the last one was. I asked if that was more or less cost efficient considering it was a Miata vs some of the other cars that have a production cost starting higher, and have a typically higher cost for non-production parts, and he said "no, it's about that regardless"


So while I would agree that you can get a "race prepped" RX-8 for $20-25k past the vehicle purchase, it's not going to be anywhere up to speed in the series that I specifically provided that number for. And perhaps you could get it 'legal' for Grand-Am ST for that, but you would likely be quite a bit off the pace, and I'm sure you have your own thoughts about too-slow cars on the track with your cars/drivers. Perhaps a different series with different rules (sbethen's car comes to mind, and I'm not bashing that at all), but for the series I noted, it's roughly accurate.

Perhaps items like the Bosch ECU for ~$20k that they have to run, the ~$10k-$12k engine rebuilds start figuring more prominently.

I respect you for your experience and words of wisdom for anyone attempting to actually "become a racecar driver". Just, as with anything else, the context of your perspective doesn't always apply to every situation. (as in, it's often quite a bit worse in cost-terms)

(Note, I have no desire to "become a racecar driver", which means I never will be)

 

All these costs are inline for a pro series. If you want to run in a SCCA amateur regional or NASA event, you can put together a car for a lot less. It doesn't cost a lot to go into a Touring or IT class or NASA equivalent. As long as you have the correct safety equipment and within the rules, you can play with little more than a stock car. You won't be able to get that win, buy you can play. I had very few modifications in my RX7's and I got a 3rd place in one race.

My tow vehicle was a used motorhome and I had a towbar for the racecar. That motorhome was the most expensive part of my "team" (my wife, young son and myself). My first motorhome didn't have enough power to even pull a car. So, my wife drove the motorhome and I drove the street legal racecar to the event.

I at first bought a basket case Formula Ford for $2000. This project ended when I got it back together enough to know I was too tall and my feet were too big for the car. I sold it and went to the RX7. The Formula Ford had the potential to be even cheaper racing than the RX7. Cornering speeds would have been higher. Top speed would have been similar.