tuj

Hi all. I am looking for what would be the best shock package for b-stock auto-x. I am not contending for a nat'l title or anything, so I don't need 4k penskes. Right now I am thinking about the Koni SA's or DA's. Some questions:

-Are the Koni's even officially out? I've had a hard time locating a retailer.

-What's the performance difference between the SA and DA? Is it huge?

-What the price difference between the SA and DA?

-Are the Mazdaspeed shocks worth considering? Given that they are designed to work with Mazdaspeed springs and I can't change springs in b-stock, I wouldn't think they would be so great.

-Are there any other shocks worth considering?

I'd really love to hear what some of you fast guys at auto-x are doing in terms of setup. Right now I have the RB front bar, Dunlop super sports, and an aggressive alignment. The car is getting faster, but I think shocks will be crucial to getting me faster (aside from improving my own skills).

clyde

The Konis are out. If you look through some of the recent threads about shocks in this forum, you'll see posts from people that have recieved their orders from some several vendors (tire rack, strano, etc).

If you don't know what you're doing with adjusting high speed compression, the DAs probably aren't worth the added expense (and I'm not sure how much extra). Trust me on this. :o Having fewer things to chase in setup makes it easier to concentrate on the driving too.

I would go with the Konis over the MS shocks to get the rebound adjustability. Even with what I said above about adjustments, having the rebound adjustability is a big plus.

Right now, I don't think that there are any other adjustable B Stock legal shocks available in the price neighborhood described by Koni Sports.

My car currently has DA Konis, an alignment that we're happy with, the OE front bar and has been running on 245/35-18 Kumho V710s this year. We're going to try a different front bar soon and see what happens.

My primary focus again this year is on the driver, not the car.

Imp

Are your DAs externally adjustable to where you don't have to remove them from the car (like tha SAs)? To me, that would be worth the price of admission into playing with the DAs.

--kC

clyde

The rebound is externally adjustable on mine, but that's because they were prototypes. I don't think that having them converted to DAs would automatically include making the rebound externally adjustable too, but I stand to be corrected. Someone else might have some info on what the conversions would cost.

Even with external adjustments for rear rebound, it's still kind of a pain to do it...just not nearly as bad as it sounds like for the internally adjustable. Still have to unbolt and pull them down about 9 inches, but they don't have to come all the way out and the lower arm doesn't need to be disconnected (which I think needs to happen to take it off the car ).

tuj

Man, that sucks as a way to adjust them. The KYB AGX's I had on my Miata I could adjust by just turning a **** on the side of the shock. It would be nice if Koni could do something like that.

army_rx8

lol kinda sucks you have to take them partialy out to adjust the rears..but oh well.

ChopsMcgraw

Put the OEM Sway Bar back on. Really. It is MUCH faster, the RB bar makes the car push pretty hard. The car rotates much better on the stock bar. I'm not fast, but the RB bar is to big.


Chops

MassiveAttack

I think (my experience with an old G-body Olds) if you've only replaced the front bar, it'll push hard. If you want to reduce that, go back to stock or upgrade the rear bar, too. My old Cutlass greatly reduced push when I upgraded the rear sway bar. I almost ran into a curb on the INSIDE of a turn soon after I got it...

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

That's the problem with staying legal in B-stock...no rear bar :D

Imp

Ummm.... ahhh... i respectfully disagree. A big front bar is great for the quick transitions like slaloms and other elements where we can't use springs to prevent body roll. Getting push in the sweepers can be dialed out using some alignment changes and tuning of the nut behind the wheel.

--kC

tuj

I started out running totally stock. The car handled great until the limits were exceeded, then it went into terminal understeer. Next I got the RB front bar and an auto-x alignment (altho they wouldn't go as aggressive as I wanted cause they were afraid I'd spin too much). This setup was much more neutral. I was afraid that the RB bar being bigger would just make the car push but combined with the alignment, the car was so much better in slaloms. In sweepers, I could get it into a smooth, neutral drift. I was running stock tires at 42 psi all-around.

The problem I am having now is that I switched to r-compound tires from stock and now the understeer problem is back. I'm sure some of it has to do with me getting used to the limits of the tires, and how they respond to different things. I really want to get back to neutral, so I think shocks will be key.

Like another poster said, changing the rear bar in b-stock is illegal. Otherwise I would have done it in a second. I want to stay in BS right now since BSP in my region is full of race-prepped m3's and the street classes are filled with 500 hp evo's.

So far I've noticed that corner entry speed is the most crucial factor in driving this car quick. Come in too fast and it gets into understeer that is hard to get out of. I've tried dropping throttle, adding steering, tapping the brakes; none of them seem to correct the problem before significant speed is lost. Yeah yeah, slow down to go fast, but with the low torque of the engine, its important to keep speed up. Has anyone else noticed this tendency to push badly when entry speed is too high? I'm saying that I may come in only slightly too fast, but the understeer is very hard to get out of. Any tips?

ChopsMcgraw

OK, let me qualify my statement . For me, being a very loose nut behind the wheel, the OEM bar is faster. This is with 0 toe in front, 1/16th toe in in the back, -1.5 camber up front, -1.0 in the back, and everything else bone stock including the tires. With the big bar turn-in was fabulous, and the high speed transitional type stuff was very nice. But it was VERY easy to push the car into terminal understeer. Maybe a highly experienced left foot would cure this.... I'm a rookie, so it would be best to take some salt with this...


Chops

tuj

I'm surprised your rear camber is so low. The stock alignment (I think) is around 0 front, -2 rear. I wanted to do max neg. camber in front, rears set same as front, but the alignment shop (who specializes in autox alignments) talked me out of it. They said it would be way too dangerous on the street. I went with zero toe front and rear, and max caster after setting camber. I think I ended up getting around -1.5 on the fronts also. I saw that they have camber kits out now... too bad I can't use them in b-stock.

I am in my second season (first with this car, last year I ran a Miata in CSP) and so far have been pretty consistently mid-pack in PAX. We usually have around 100 drivers. At my last two events, I've won b-stock, which is admittedly lightly contested. So I'm looking to move up in PAX. Of course, I am trying to overcome handling problems with my technique rather than settings, but its hard because the car doesn't want to come out of understeer. Its strange because when the car gets into mild oversteer, its usually easy to correct quickly (when its dry) and not loose much time. So far the best technique I have found is to taper off the throttle and add steering, and wait for the wheels to scrub off enough speed to catch. Obviously I'm loosing time when this happens, so I'd like to find a way to make recovery quicker.

Regarding the Koni's: what are the adjustments on the SA's and DA's? (ie compression, rebound, speed-related compression, etc). How many adjustment positions are there? My only experience with adjustables has been on kyb agx's which adjusted for both rebound and compression at the same time.

Dark8

There Koni's don't have "clicks" like on the AGX shock adjustment. On the last set I owned there was 1 1/2 turns of adjustment. The SA adjust rebound only and the DA adjust rebound and high speed compression. Are you on stock tires? It always seemed that by the second half of the run the fronts would start overheating and terminal understeer followed. And what presures are you running?

tuj

I'm running Dunlop super sport race r-compounds (mainly because they are cheaper than Kuhmos or Hoosiers). The fronts actually didn't heat up as much as when I ran stock tires. I would set the stock tires at 40 or 42 psi cold and after 2 runs would usually see the fronts up 7 psi, rears up 2 psi. I did not notice this on the Dunlops. I set them at 38 all-around, and they heated up to about 41-41 pretty evenly. I dropped the fronts to 37 on my last run but it didn't make any difference or maybe even got worse.

tuj

How do you know when the tires are overheated?

army_rx8

^heh estop the car and run out side and feel them :p

seriously though you can tell when they are geting to hot b/c your grip goes to $h!t

hehe i'm a poet :D

fastmike

I am not a fan of a big front bar either.
You DO needa big enough front bar to keep the inside rear wheel on the ground at all times for the diff to work properly(ie: long corners or turnarounds) but any larger bar than that is working in the "wrong" direction imo.
Why decrease traction at the end that is already the "weak" end of the car?
Wouldn't it be nice to get into the power earlier/sooner than having to manage understeer all the time?

I would say that many more cars are set up with the big front bar versus small bar though.
I might not know what I am talking about but I am building cars without giant front bar setups and the cars have shown improvements.
Also,driving styles play into which setup you like.

Shock damping adjustments on the slow speed compression area can be very helpful in the transitions when choosing the small bar set up.
The car's motions are slowed with the stiff low speed compression.
This only happens for a little bit of time though. Once the car is leaned over, the shocks do less and the bar does more assuming site is not bumpy.

Remember, you do need a big enough front bar to keep inside rear wheel on the ground.

I think that stock might be big enough on the 8 but on my Miata, I had to go slightly stiffer than stock due to the extreme grip of the 225-50-14 710.
I just sent my Miata shocks back for another increase in damping rates too.

RX8 development for our team is stalled while we figure out how we are going to chop up a set of stock shocks to make them stiffer on low speed compression.

Mazdaspeed shocks are a GREAT street shock but I now do not think that they are going to be stiff enough for national level autox work.
We played around a little bit with the car and there is lots of body movements on autox type maneuvers.
MS shocks are better than stockers though.

FM

PedalFaster

ULLLOSE said this weekend that he'd been told Bilstein will be making shocks for the RX-8 -- if so, that should be an inexpensive, revalvable option.

Are you guys planning on running the car at any national-level events? There are only two more west coast events left after this weekend...

Steve

fastmike

Partially based on results from Atwater and on how much body movement we were getting at Everett(even on CRAPPY tires), I told Shelbi to change her 710 order for the 8 to a 710 order for 225's for my Miata.

The original plan to run 8 at WW events to see how close we were to 968 then maybe go National with it if close or winning against the 968 locally.

We ARE going to keep working on shocks for the 8 though.

Hearing that Bilstein is going to be making some dampers for the 8 is great news as long as they are not the "twin tube" type.
Revalving the inexpensive non adjustable Bilsteins is a great deal($65 each) but you do not get the "nice" graphs that you get with a "high end" shock like a digressive blow off or VDP Penske and no external adjustments for the fine tuning.

Some of those big $$$ shocks are really trick inside. I like reading about the 4 way adjustable ones.
I am interested in doing more research on a PSS9 Bilstein damper though.(mid$$$)

You CAN get "in the ballpark" according to dyno graphs with less expensive Bilsteins like I have on the Miata when comparing them to the high $$$ stuff.
I am not "ideal" in high speed compression(a little too stiff) even though I am really happy with the high level of lowspeed compression damping with the less expensive Bilstein model that I am using(stock shock actually).
I will/should only get into that kind of fast shock shaft speeds and be too stiff on chuckholes or speedbumps...or Nationals until they repave it LOL!.

I just heard that a certain MiataR from Oregon "might" have a new "hotshot" motor in it.
I wish I would of had a chance to buy that thing if it is the one that I think that it is.
GRRR!
FM(who might not know what he is talking about...results will prove/disprove if I know how to setup a autox car!)

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Wuss... Dont worry about the shocks, just drive the damn car..... I beat Ron at Fontana with stock shocks and 2nd at SD.... Now I have the Konis and 3rd at Atwater.... Its not the shocks... Learn to drive what you got...

Or spend all year dicking with two cars and dont get either one done, then you have your excuse for not going to natls this year. :p

Or wait maybe you are right.... Ron is on $5000.00 Moton shocks... Randy was on $4000,00 Koni 2812s... I was on $600.00 konis... No wonder I got whooped, I should just quit.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

You can disagree if you like... So far this year, it is early in the season, only two RX8s have posted wins and both on small bars. :D

I will say I think the stock bar is to small for a 100% setup car, however for a stocker it works great.

fastmike

Hmmm...I agree with Jason on this: Stock bar "might" be a little too small for a "fully" set up car on concrete but MS bar might be too big and cause push.
We sold our RB bar....
Great for a class that allows rear bar changes but I don't know how someone could get the 8 to turn with that thing.

The wuss part...I don't know about that!
LOL!

Miata is close to a REALLY good car right now but 8 needs a lot more work.

Damn autox/pax is this region is TOUGH.
Nat stuff is even tougher..
You are REQUIRED to have a REALLY good setup to even be somewhat competitive around here.
Oh well.
Them's the way the rules are written!
I sure wish that Nats would repave with asphalt!!!

FM

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

all I can say is I've yet to experience this inside rear wheel lift thing you guys keep talking about, but the one I've driven has proper shocks

I'm close to having an adjustable tubular speedway bar done soon, I'll probably offer them for sale once the rates are verified



I'm not convinced the car needs one though, IMO a decent set of shocks is an imperative though, but 2812's are probably overkill plus excessive ride height due to the high gas pressure requirement

anybody know where I can get a codrive out west?

tuj

When you guys say that the big front bars might work on a totally setup car, what do you mean by that? Different shocks and racing tires, or even more than that (coilovers, etc)? I hate to think that the RB bar I've got isn't going to work into a good setup.