Braking
12-19-2008, 01:58 AM
#26
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One of my favorite youtube ALMS clips has an excellent in-car video of trail braking. Starts at about 2:00 with the vettes. The audio is something to behold too. Crank up the volume and drool.
As for the braking, particularly in turns 3 and 4 at Laguna Seca, they seem to roll thru the corners as is needed in endurance racing and use throttle modulation to make the turn. Sometimes picking up the throttle all the way at track out. I guess this is how you avoid brake pad changes in a 4 hour race on a track that is hard on brakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLELrQUTE1w
As for the braking, particularly in turns 3 and 4 at Laguna Seca, they seem to roll thru the corners as is needed in endurance racing and use throttle modulation to make the turn. Sometimes picking up the throttle all the way at track out. I guess this is how you avoid brake pad changes in a 4 hour race on a track that is hard on brakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLELrQUTE1w
12-19-2008, 02:21 AM
#27
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One of my favorite youtube ALMS clips has an excellent in-car video of trail braking. Starts at about 2:00 with the vettes. The audio is something to behold too. Crank up the volume and drool.
As for the braking, particularly in turns 3 and 4 at Laguna Seca, they seem to roll thru the corners as is needed in endurance racing and use throttle modulation to make the turn. Sometimes picking up the throttle all the way at track out. I guess this is how you avoid brake pad changes in a 4 hour race on a track that is hard on brakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLELrQUTE1w
As for the braking, particularly in turns 3 and 4 at Laguna Seca, they seem to roll thru the corners as is needed in endurance racing and use throttle modulation to make the turn. Sometimes picking up the throttle all the way at track out. I guess this is how you avoid brake pad changes in a 4 hour race on a track that is hard on brakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLELrQUTE1w
Touching upon picking up the throttle all the way at track out (especially in the horeshoes in this case), Here's an in-car vid of Peter driving at the Rolex 24 in '04....
Right click and save as
www.teamjuicyracing.com/vids/rolex2004a.wmv
In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.
Last edited by SouthFL; 12-19-2008 at 10:30 AM.
12-19-2008, 11:29 AM
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[QUOTE=SouthFL;2777140]
In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
]
It's not a race to get on throttle earlier as everyone thinks it is.
Your post #17
In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
]
It's not a race to get on throttle earlier as everyone thinks it is.
Your post #17
12-19-2008, 12:26 PM
#29
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[QUOTE=hogcar;2777648]
For the average joe who thinks getting on the throttle early is a priority over transitional balance, it is a fallacy to prioritize getting on the throttle early.
Now, to go back to your orginal statement of
then, I agree with you, if you can do all of the above, you have it dicked.
Now, to go back to your orginal statement of
When you learn to combine Smoooooth, HARD, LATE braking and smooth balance into, through, and out of the corner you will have it dicked.
Last edited by SouthFL; 12-19-2008 at 12:32 PM.
12-19-2008, 12:33 PM
#30
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Nobody is saying the stock pad would hold up to the rigors of a track day.
HP Plus has a 900 deg. temp range. It holds up fine at Sebring when I go.
I've also run EBC Yellow, but actually prefer the pedal modulation of the HP Plus as a personal preference, therefore I keep using it.
HP Plus has a 900 deg. temp range. It holds up fine at Sebring when I go.
I've also run EBC Yellow, but actually prefer the pedal modulation of the HP Plus as a personal preference, therefore I keep using it.
12-19-2008, 02:44 PM
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[QUOTE=hogcar;2777648]
Remember, "getting on the throttle" does not mean "full throttle" or matting the pedal, but transitioning from velocity loss to velocity maintenence or gain...so, in effect, it IS a race to get on the throttle earlier, all other things being equal.
edit: ok, maybe I'm getting too into the sematics of what is being described...
Remember, "getting on the throttle" does not mean "full throttle" or matting the pedal, but transitioning from velocity loss to velocity maintenence or gain...so, in effect, it IS a race to get on the throttle earlier, all other things being equal.
edit: ok, maybe I'm getting too into the sematics of what is being described...
Last edited by mwood; 12-19-2008 at 02:51 PM.
12-19-2008, 03:09 PM
#32
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[QUOTE=mwood;2778054]
Remember, "getting on the throttle" does not mean "full throttle" or matting the pedal, but transitioning from velocity loss to velocity maintenence or gain...so, in effect, it IS a race to get on the throttle earlier, all other things being equal.
edit: ok, maybe I'm getting too into the sematics of what is being described...
What I've realized in lowering lap times is that (at least in my case) I was over slowing the car at entry and needed to allow it to run thru the corner. This actually changed my take on the importance of picking up the throttle and where.
Yeah, it's great to pick it up earlier but the key also involves carrying as much momentum into the corner while maintaining composure and balance.
This is moreorless the point I was trying to make with the ALMS clip earlier. They did more steering with the throttle than anything because of the momentum in and at the same time taking care of the brakes. Thus earlier on throttle, or heavy early throttle isn't needed per se.
This is especially true in our "momentum" cars.
Remember, "getting on the throttle" does not mean "full throttle" or matting the pedal, but transitioning from velocity loss to velocity maintenence or gain...so, in effect, it IS a race to get on the throttle earlier, all other things being equal.
edit: ok, maybe I'm getting too into the sematics of what is being described...
Yeah, it's great to pick it up earlier but the key also involves carrying as much momentum into the corner while maintaining composure and balance.
This is moreorless the point I was trying to make with the ALMS clip earlier. They did more steering with the throttle than anything because of the momentum in and at the same time taking care of the brakes. Thus earlier on throttle, or heavy early throttle isn't needed per se.
This is especially true in our "momentum" cars.
12-19-2008, 03:28 PM
#33
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In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.[/QUOTE]
Just finished the clips.
Items to note
1. Missed shift/ wrong gear on the front straight during qualifying
2. During the first stint was in avoidable contact with three different cars. NOT the thing to do especially in a 24 hour race.
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.[/QUOTE]
Just finished the clips.
Items to note
1. Missed shift/ wrong gear on the front straight during qualifying
2. During the first stint was in avoidable contact with three different cars. NOT the thing to do especially in a 24 hour race.
12-19-2008, 03:50 PM
#34
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[QUOTE=Senna;2778095]
What I've realized in lowering lap times is that (at least in my case) I was over slowing the car at entry and needed to allow it to run thru the corner. This actually changed my take on the importance of picking up the throttle and where.
Yeah, it's great to pick it up earlier but the key also involves carrying as much momentum into the corner while maintaining composure and balance.
This is moreorless the point I was trying to make with the ALMS clip earlier. They did more steering with the throttle than anything because of the momentum in and at the same time taking care of the brakes. Thus earlier on throttle, or heavy early throttle isn't needed per se.
This is especially true in our "momentum" cars.
If you think about it, if you are not either on the gas or on the brakes you are, by definition, coasting...So, unless you are coasting through turns, I would submit you must be on the throttle to "carry momentum"...that's what I'm talking about and why it IS imperative that you pick up the throttle as early as possible to maintain and increase velocity mid turn to track out to acceleration zone. That's also why I made my earlier point about semantics...
What I've realized in lowering lap times is that (at least in my case) I was over slowing the car at entry and needed to allow it to run thru the corner. This actually changed my take on the importance of picking up the throttle and where.
Yeah, it's great to pick it up earlier but the key also involves carrying as much momentum into the corner while maintaining composure and balance.
This is moreorless the point I was trying to make with the ALMS clip earlier. They did more steering with the throttle than anything because of the momentum in and at the same time taking care of the brakes. Thus earlier on throttle, or heavy early throttle isn't needed per se.
This is especially true in our "momentum" cars.
12-19-2008, 04:48 PM
#35
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In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.
Just finished the clips.
Items to note
1. Missed shift/ wrong gear on the front straight during qualifying
2. During the first stint was in avoidable contact with three different cars. NOT the thing to do especially in a 24 hour race.
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.
Just finished the clips.
Items to note
1. Missed shift/ wrong gear on the front straight during qualifying
2. During the first stint was in avoidable contact with three different cars. NOT the thing to do especially in a 24 hour race.
How is he in avoidable contact with guys divebombing his T6 turn in (including the SunTrust DP car)? He had already established that turn as his.
In T1, the Ferrari passed and turned in on the outer line, cutting off the guy in front of him to get back on line, thus causing the chain reaction.
Hogcar, have you ever driven T1 at Daytona? It's rather interesting in a pack of cars going wheel to wheel- I speak from experience, as that's where I attended race school in '05. Do you hold a competition racing license? I can at least say I have (SCCA Regional).
Heck, if you do have a competition background I'd merit the attitude and opinion you bring to discussion as more valid. But for now, all I know is that you are a guy behind a computer with a handle named Hogcar. Apologies ahead of time if you speak from experience.
Last edited by SouthFL; 12-19-2008 at 04:50 PM.
12-19-2008, 04:49 PM
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[QUOTE=mwood;2778173]
If you think about it, if you are not either on the gas or on the brakes you are, by definition, coasting...So, unless you are coasting through turns, I would submit you must be on the throttle to "carry momentum"...that's what I'm talking about and why it IS imperative that you pick up the throttle as early as possible to maintain and increase velocity mid turn to track out to acceleration zone. That's also why I made my earlier point about semantics...
Agreed, car either should be on throttle or brake to some capacity- not coasting.
If you think about it, if you are not either on the gas or on the brakes you are, by definition, coasting...So, unless you are coasting through turns, I would submit you must be on the throttle to "carry momentum"...that's what I'm talking about and why it IS imperative that you pick up the throttle as early as possible to maintain and increase velocity mid turn to track out to acceleration zone. That's also why I made my earlier point about semantics...
12-19-2008, 05:23 PM
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How is he in avoidable contact with guys divebombing his T6 turn in (including the SunTrust DP car)? He had already established that turn as his.
In T1, the Ferrari passed and turned in on the outer line, cutting off the guy in front of him to get back on line, thus causing the chain reaction.
Hogcar, have you ever driven T1 at Daytona? It's rather interesting in a pack of cars going wheel to wheel- I speak from experience, as that's where I attended race school in '05. Do you hold a competition racing license? I can at least say I have (SCCA Regional).
Heck, if you do have a competition background I'd merit the attitude and opinion you bring to discussion as more valid. But for now, all I know is that you are a guy behind a computer with a handle named Hogcar. Apologies ahead of time if you speak from experience.[/QUOTE]
Where do I start???
It begins with track awareness. NOT just your car but all those Red-misted fellows around you.
His first contact may not have been all his fault but he should have known that he was there and considering that it was a 24 hour race it is NOT worth risking your car for that position. The corner has plenty of room for two-wide racing. He should not have placed his car in that position.
His second contact was all his fault. He should have yielded to the LEAD car instead of chopping off his nose. He was either not aware that he was there or did not show the LEADER any respect, especially considering he was in the slower class. Again this is an endurance race, which is never won on the first stint.
The third contact again was his fault and avoidable. The car in front of him was checking up in a BRAKE zone. If it was a missed shift with someone directly behind then contact might be unavoidable. I think but cannot say to a certainty, but it appeared he might have been distracted by the car that passes them both on the
outside. It only takes a split second.
In T1, the Ferrari passed and turned in on the outer line, cutting off the guy in front of him to get back on line, thus causing the chain reaction.
Hogcar, have you ever driven T1 at Daytona? It's rather interesting in a pack of cars going wheel to wheel- I speak from experience, as that's where I attended race school in '05. Do you hold a competition racing license? I can at least say I have (SCCA Regional).
Heck, if you do have a competition background I'd merit the attitude and opinion you bring to discussion as more valid. But for now, all I know is that you are a guy behind a computer with a handle named Hogcar. Apologies ahead of time if you speak from experience.[/QUOTE]
Where do I start???
It begins with track awareness. NOT just your car but all those Red-misted fellows around you.
His first contact may not have been all his fault but he should have known that he was there and considering that it was a 24 hour race it is NOT worth risking your car for that position. The corner has plenty of room for two-wide racing. He should not have placed his car in that position.
His second contact was all his fault. He should have yielded to the LEAD car instead of chopping off his nose. He was either not aware that he was there or did not show the LEADER any respect, especially considering he was in the slower class. Again this is an endurance race, which is never won on the first stint.
The third contact again was his fault and avoidable. The car in front of him was checking up in a BRAKE zone. If it was a missed shift with someone directly behind then contact might be unavoidable. I think but cannot say to a certainty, but it appeared he might have been distracted by the car that passes them both on the
outside. It only takes a split second.
12-19-2008, 05:40 PM
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Where do I start???
It begins with track awareness. NOT just your car but all those Red-misted fellows around you.
His first contact may not have been all his fault but he should have known that he was there and considering that it was a 24 hour race it is NOT worth risking your car for that position. The corner has plenty of room for two-wide racing. He should not have placed his car in that position.
His second contact was all his fault. He should have yielded to the LEAD car instead of chopping off his nose. He was either not aware that he was there or did not show the LEADER any respect, especially considering he was in the slower class. Again this is an endurance race, which is never won on the first stint.
The third contact again was his fault and avoidable. The car in front of him was checking up in a BRAKE zone. If it was a missed shift with someone directly behind then contact might be unavoidable. I think but cannot say to a certainty, but it appeared he might have been distracted by the car that passes them both on the
outside. It only takes a split second.
12-19-2008, 05:49 PM
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I don't care how important exit speed is out of the infield!!! Finishing your stint let alone the entire 24 hours is light years ahead in terms of priorities. The 2 tenths of a second advantage that he might gain is not worth the risk!!!
He showed no courtesy to the LEADER, who was at least 10 seconds a lap faster.
I am sure that the SunTrust car was really impressed!!!
Finishing your stint let alone the entire 24 hours is light years ahead in terms of priorities. The 2 tenths of a second advantage that he might gain is not worth the risk!!!He showed no courtesy to the LEADER, who was at least 10 seconds a lap faster.
I am sure that the SunTrust car was really impressed!!!
12-19-2008, 05:51 PM
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I haven't timed myself there during my last few trips up. About a year ago I was turning about 2:45 on a 220 treadwear street tire (Bridgestone S-03) and HP Plus pads.
12-19-2008, 06:05 PM
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I don't care how important exit speed is out of the infield!!! Finishing your stint let alone the entire 24 hours is light years ahead in terms of priorities. The 2 tenths of a second advantage that he might gain is not worth the risk!!!
He showed no courtesy to the LEADER, who was at least 10 seconds a lap faster.
I am sure that the SunTrust car was really impressed!!!
Finishing your stint let alone the entire 24 hours is light years ahead in terms of priorities. The 2 tenths of a second advantage that he might gain is not worth the risk!!!He showed no courtesy to the LEADER, who was at least 10 seconds a lap faster.
I am sure that the SunTrust car was really impressed!!!
Thread back on track to braking now.
12-20-2008, 02:35 PM
#43
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Just watched the videos!! Don't know about you guys but the adrenaline was flowing. I need to do that (24hrs) at least once before death.
Interesting discussion.
Interesting discussion.
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