Yes and no to your comment. When I got into the car, I knew I was going to have an uphill battle. I didn't know I would have to climb Mt. Kilomanjiro. The car is honestly slower than I expected with my usual setup (Stock except brakes+Toyo tires). The reason why I am not hating myself is because there are not many cars within the price range that can give me the same performance with the same package (stock except for pads and Toyo tires). If you think about it, cars in its class are probably cars like the STI, EVO, Z, Solstice Turbo, S2000, M3, C4. With the exception of the S2000 and the E36 M3 and the C4, you are not going to find many cars under 15K that can do what I am doing stock. If I pay $30K for my vehicle, then yes I would have more problems. Since I paid half of that, I can at least live with it. I am just a little pissed that the car can't really go much faster without doing work, oh well.

The other poster is probably right that I am probably not using all of the car yet, but at the same time I know I am not far from it in its current state. You can only ask a donkey to do so much.

 

swoope, love ya man... but i dont even try and read your posts anymore. it's so painstaking to make heads or tails of what you're trying to convey that it is simply not worth it this is about what i can catch from most posts these days:

(btw that post above is one of the better ones i've seen as of late )

/threadjack

 

It's not hard to pass an incompetent driver in a fast car, but it's a different story to pass a good driver in a fast car (not even a great driver). You can't change the rule of physics, the car can only go so fast. In this instance, it is not making up four seconds over a minute and a half. It goes back to the more you spend, the faster you go. In my instance, I want to see what is the cheapest way to go faster....(I had excluded tires) because I had accounted for that as a fixed cost to tracking cars.

 

The driver and car swoope is speaking of the tires he was running were Hankook Z214's in 225/45-17. Believe me he can pass a good driver in a fast car. Have an experienced instructor ride with you, maybe a Miata guy who is well versed in getting the most out of momentum cars. Having someone in the right seat no matter what level you are at is always beneficial. I try to have as many people as possible ride with me, lucky for me I have 6 or 7 friends who drive or have driven RX-8's and are instructors. I've had lots of "ah ha" moments with them in the right seat adjusting my braking zones or having me try a different line. We are always going to be the limiting factors in our cars and there will always be someone faster who can show us a thing or two.

 

I am not questioning about the driver, I am sure he is great. The fact is that no matter how good or fast he is, he is not passing faster cars with good drivers. It's just the law of physics. A lot of people think passing cars is a great way to see how well you are doing, but it really doesn't tell you the story like laptimes.

Let's use this video as an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UD5F71Ry4 This car flew by me and was running about 1-2 sec faster than me per lap. Should he be proud given the fact he was on 305/335 Hoosier slicks and I was on 245/285 Toyos. I forgot to mention the suspension and the extra 150rwhp.

 

/\lol. Maybe you both suck?
just kidding of course. Looks like you have him on corners and your line looks much better.

 

It could be, but I know the RX-8 was going about 10 sec slower than the C6 with the same "sucky" driver. The amazing thing about that video was that I was going nearly 140mph when the Z06 blew by me. As I said before, I am not expect the RX-8 to be anywhere as fast as those guys. I just thought the gap would be a lot smaller

 

Tires, tires, tires.

Your comparison isn't valid until you put some fresh, properly selected tires on your car. By running worn-out R888s, you have taken the single most important component of a momentum-based car and killed it. It's like tracking a Mustang with four malfunctioning spark plugs.

 

George,

All three cars I collected data on were on toyos, stock, driver/owner and same brake pads. Its as close as a valid comparison in a non racing environment. I also have data from other cars, but they do not have the same tires or owner or driver. I do have to admit the z had the best grip, followed by the rx8 and then vette.

 

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Mr. Tmak,

I applaud you for seeking answers to your questions. Keep seeking and you will find the answer to your situation.

Here is my .04

In no particular order:

-Casual open track drivers coming from higher hp cars (V-8's as an example) typically find it un-rewarding when they move to a momentum based, lower power car.
-Those drivers (and I'm not pointing at you----I'm generalizing here), those drivers that aren't very good cover their mistakes with a capable car. I've instructed hundreds of students both new and experienced in slow, medium and fast cars. Those in the faster cars go faster regardless of thier skill sets. Those in the slower cars go slow or fast dependant on thier skill sets. In otherwords, a poorly skilled driver can make a new Z06 fly at VIR. Not true for the RX8 at VIR. You will need both a skilled driver and car mods to extract the cars performance.

The RX8 won't run faster than a 2:11-2:12 at VIR full with an n.a. motor and every suspension mod you can think of. You'll need to be a very, very, very skilled driver to get there. This is essentially what a skilled driver in a Koni Challenge sports car could run if he/she is really fast. You will need to run in a unlimited passing run group as the RX8 will have to take advantage of it's strengths (handling and brakes) to get ahead of the cars that are faster in the straights. "Follow the leader" events with limited passing don't favor the RX8. Courses with long straights don't favor the RX8.

The big gains are in the suspension. Huge gains. Monster gains. They will also require your car to be trailered as you can't/won't want to drive it to the from the track.

I would bet a 6 pack of beer that you are waaay overslowing prior to corner entry which makes it even harder on this 1.3L little guy engine to regain lost momentum. Spec Miata drivers know this which is why (on the record) that people who start learning with momentum cars generally CRUSH those guys that learn on V-8's. See it all the time. It takes talent to drive a momentum car. Moving from a V-8 (or high hp) car to a momentum car can be very frustrating. More often than not (and most likely in your case) the opportunity is in your driving style as most drivers making a transition from high hp to momentum often say (there is NO POWER there). True and not true. Most of these drivers don't learn to adapt their driving style. This is your challenge. Done correctly a modified RX8 can be very rewarding. However if you need the seat of the pants V8 high speed fix, this car isn't for you.

Since you're looking for data, may I suggest you consider some form of data acquistion that will point out your opportunity. Done correctly with a professional driver or a skilled race data acquisition engineer, you will see the data that will reveal your driving style. This may not be an option for you.

Your in a tough spot my friend as its going to take a while to learn this skill and THEN figure out if you enjoy this momentum style of driving (or not).

You have a couple of options from where I sit:

(a) Keep the car and sink a ton of money in hodge-podge modifications that almost always mask the real issue (the driver's skill set). Then figure out you like or don't like it.
(b) Go buy a used C5 Z06, put gas and brakes in it. Drive it to and from the track, park it in the garage and forget about it.
(c) Buy a Spec Miata which already has all the suspension mods it needs (about $9-13K) and learn how to momentum drive.
(d) Invest in driver coaching to help you confirm that you are extracting the majority of time out of your car.

The easy fix is a C5 Z. Cheap. Proven. Easy to drive.

The Mazda is a driver's car, requires a "momentum" style driving skill set and car suspension mods.

Hope this helps.

Happy rotoring

 

Eric, I agree with you completely. I've been driving a Miata on the track for the last 6-7 years and I've improved my driving a lot. The biggest gains came from having someone faster drive my car, or even doing a lead-follow with a quicker SM. In the Miata, it's all about braking as little as possible, getting back on the throttle quickly and feathering the car around the corner.

 

^^^ same with my AT.

 

I agree on a lot of things you said, but I respectfully disagree on some.

In order of your response

#1 I agree, but personally, I don't care as long as the car puts down a respectable time. Of course I have to like the car too.

#2 Once again, I agree up to a certain point. You are always going to have hacks driving slow or fast cars. I have passed faster cars and been passed by slower cars. You do have to remember each car has its limit, a good driver can only make up so much. This is why I compare all the cars I owned as I have tried hard to limit my variables. This is as close as I could get to real data since there aren't many real datas I can compare to. I found it laughable when people think they have a faster car than what they really have. When my friends make fun of slow times, I can at least say I am paying half of what you are paying. That's my trade off for trying to save for a wedding and owning multiple houses.

#2b Koni ST cars make 270HP or so, I don't think a stock RX-8 make anywhere close to that. I am one of the guys who believes the RX-8 makes 210-220bhp. There is no way you can compare a stock RX-8 to a race car. It's like saying the average ST cars run 59 sec on Hoosiers at Lime Rock Park. I did 1:02 in my stock 350z on Toyos. Does that make the Z bad? I don't think it is fair to compare them since there are so many things that are different.

#3 I agree about suspension. Stock suspension is very soft. As I stated in previous posts, the high amount of roll makes it hard for me to go hard into certain corners. (hence some corners I am faster and slower than my old cars) I have coil-overs as #2 on my list if I ever choose to modify the car. The suspension on the RX-8 is softer than my Z51 Corvette, so it's not exactly the track special. This partially explains why the car went slower in SOME corners compare to the Z.

#4 You are absolutely right about the braking and corner entry comment. This is why I wouldn't be surprise if I am leaving a little time off the table. How do I know? I have datalogs who can confirm that in certain corners. At the same time, I doubt I am leaving a lot of time because the corner entry speeds are still respectable (If anything, I have problem with the apex speed). I also notice I keep going back to my old braking points rather than finding new deeper ones since I am carrying a lot less speed. I need the reset button in my head.

#5 I own a cheap datalogger and I am constantly looking for good data to collect. Unlike a lot of people, I look at myself based on what the data is giving me. It really doesn't matter to me if I pass a Corvette or a Miata. I am one of those who prefers to set myself up for two clean laps per session rather than 10 laps in and out of traffic. If I feel the car gets tired, I back off to cool the car and set myself up for the next lap.

I just want to add that driving a high HP car FAST is not much different than a momentum car. You still have to carry as much speed as possible to get the best available times. If it is that easy to drive, you wouldn't see bunch of people crashing them! Trust me, going from 130mph down to a 90 mph turn and taking a car from 100mph down to 90mph is different, but similar in that it can still take a lot of ***** and skills to do.

This is not easy to drive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9sx-rkx5UM

 

Tmak,

Please let me introduce myself. My name is Eric Meyer and I'm here to help. I am no longer aware of what topic we are addressing in this post. I THOUGHT it was "I have a relatively slower car and what do I need to do with it to make it faster" (these are my words, not yours).

Don't get defensive please. I can back up my words with data.
-Koni Challenge RX8's have approx 215 hp
-I have driven and raced VIR more than 99% of the people on this board. In the rain, snow and even raced in the dark at the 13 hour.
-I own/have owned 3 RX8 race prep cars and am building a 4th.
-My last car has over $30K of data acquisition labor and effort
-One of my most personally rewarding efforts is to help drivers who want to improve. Instructing a student who is open minded and wants to advance is a wonderful experience.

If you like, send me your data and video and I can help. If not, that's OK too.

Don't get defensive but I can tell you there is more opportunity in your driving and car and I can show you (with your data) how to go get it. Now for the point I want to make-----this car is NOT like driving a big V8 car when braking and cornering. Don't argue with it. This is the opportunity to drive differently and go faster. If you're open and would like to learn more. Give me a shout.

Eric

meyermotorsports@mac.com

 

UPDATE:

My good buddy Tom Long just sent me this video. Tom won the season finale' Grand-Am Koni Sports Car Challenge race at VIR. The fast MX-5 is similar in driving to the RX8 however it has a bit more power and we have a bit better handling and brakes. The big difference is the driver and Tom Long is one of THE best. He's 28 years old and has been my driver coach and friend for the past few years. Enjoy the racing action but more importantly listen the throttle application and when he goes to full power. Also notice his braking points. I believe this car was running low 2:10 lap times---just off the Koni track record for ST which is a 2:09 and change. I think my best there in the fastest RX8 that I could find is a low 2:11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Pr2d84jhU

 

Well I don't post much as I tend to rather listen and learn rather than run my mouth as if I know everything. If Tmak doesn't want to learn anything from that video I most definately did!! Aside from the great racing action and gutsy passes (to say the least) it was interesting to hear how much time he spends on the throttle and how little time he spends on the brakes.

Thanks for the post Eric!

 

that was scary to watch.....

 

I am on a cell phone, can't view till I am home.

As I said, I agree with a lot of things you said, at the same time I also disagree on some. If you have data on a stock car, please post them or pm me with it. Compare race carrs to street cars are not exactly fair. Its hard to learn, especially oover the internet, without datalogs or videos with equal car. the closest thing I have is another stock car, but its still hard to learn when there is an difference

this is not about me getting defensive, I just found some things that I don't think is right.

st cars make 218 at the wheels or engine? I am not familiar with them. if it is wheels, my original statement of 260 270 seems fairr

 

Thanks for posting that video Eric. Long's driving is stellar!!!!

 

Eric awesome explanation and video... I look forward to some of your advice in person at the track... as for you tmak you should really learn to listen to people with experience. A wise person once told me "a driver who is willing to listen to their instructor and try the things they suggest will ultimately learn more and become a better driver then the person who doesn't".

There are many people in this thread that are true track addicts and professional drivers that have tons of experience with this specific car in the stock and modified versions. So in my eyes you have two choices:

1. Be a sponge and learn from them and take in their experiences, successes, and pitfalls with this car.
2. Be so stubborn that you never end up reaching some of the potential of the vehicle and ultimately end up selling it.

Hint: it’s better to be a sponge in this situation....

 

I am all ears, I am just looking for something that I either looked over and don't know about. At the same time, I still haven't seen any concrete evidence to disprove some of my believes. If you have it, I am all ears. I still have not seen time trial results, datalogs to disprove some of my theories. I know it is hard because every car and driver are different, that's why it might not even be a good comparison to begin with. I am just looking for ideas, someone backed up my theory of the 17s setup, soft suspension setup, basically things like that. This is not about the driver, simply about the car. if the driver is the only problem, trust me I wouldn't be stupid enough to ask people to teach me how to drive on the internet. I choose not to list my experience because I don't want to sound cocky. As I said before, I am no expert and I don't claim to be. At the same time, I am no spring chicken.

 

Could you try that again in english someone can comprehend tmak? Don't take this as hostile please, it's merely stating the obvious, but really....

You expect to be taken seriously on this board (I assume), but you're not willing to tell us anything almost anything (except you're not a spring chicken as well as being a non-expert) about yourself or experience so we can at least get a clue where you're coming from and how to address a specific issue with you.

You tell us you aren't getting "something you have (sic) looked over" (overlooked?), but you still need evidence to disprove "some of (sic) my believes?" (beliefs?) and "some of my theories"?

Can you please list some of these? It would be easier to discuss them if there was a list of your beliefs and theories.

Then you say "I am just looking for ideas"? There have been many, many idea give here, backed up by both experience and fact. There are really few ideas left you haven't heard already. Depending on what you know (sorry you won't tell us what you know) all you need do now is assemble the respective parts needed and apply them to your car. It's not really rocket science. Then experience the results for yourself being the ???? driver you are! Then you can tell us the answers...well you can tell someone the answers. We are the ones with the answers you are looking for, even if you don't accept that, so we don't really need the answers so much.

Perhaps you need someone to help you pick out the parts, or install them? Is that's what missing for you? I'm unclear on what you need from us here?

 

I am typing on a phone with a sticky keyboard, sorry for not proof read my posts.

As I stated in my original post, I am looking for something that can make the car faster without major modification. I gave an example like control arm on the z or exhaust in an evo. I listed specifically that tires are not included because I am getting new and better ones. Yet with the exception of a couple posts (soft oem suspension/17s), most were just about driving or other unrelated things. I had listed my datalogs, videos and lap times. If you can show me where the driver lost four seconds in time, please feel free to show me. I am using four (sb in the 3s once I get used to the car) seconds because I was four seconds faster in my old car on same tires, yet some people think the rx8s should be faster because they passed a z in their track days. If you could find something to show that I am wrong, please show me. And my z was the lap record holder in class forr 3 years until it was beaten this year, so I either got lucky or my field sucked..

I do have a racing and tt license, but then its not important because you can basically buy them. If you find cars running faster times with similar equipment, let me know as I am more interested in that than credentials. I want to see where he is going faster. I don't have an ego regarding my driving. I lost them all after attending a few national events, I feel comfortable enough as to knowing where I am as an amateur driver.-

 

Ok, that's a start, although you were again talking about the driver a lot there, where you said a post or so ago this was simply about the car, not the driver. And what is major to you? Is is a cost ceiling, or install difficulty...what exactly? BTW no one changes their control arms in an 8 and an exhaust does about nothing, for example.

There is no small mod that will change the power output of the engine significantly. So as the engine is off the list I can answer your original post question easily. Nothing will make the car significantly 'faster' down a straight, while there are some changes that will make the car handle better around corners. I don't know if 'handle better' equates to 'faster' in your mind.

The 'handle better' part is really where the driver makes the difference. Better driving can make a particular car faster.

Do you want us to critique your driving style? Just because you can drive car A well & fast, it doesn't automatically follow that you can drive B well & fast. So even you driving the different cars you offer up isn't really proof of lap time superiority.

Perhaps you can post some more vids of the car driving you did in both? Maybe once driving yoiur Z and one with your 8. That would help a little, but it would still be hard unless someone rode with you. What do your instructors say? I assume you still get occasional instruction just to brush up every now and then and esp. if you want to go faster in an unfamilar car like your RX-8

But then again that the driver not the car. Simple answer, nothing will make the car accelerate faster that's not major!