mlx8

Cyberdog ~ I do a lot of Audi Club events, and am an Audi owner, but of the "older" variety 5 cylinder S4/6 cars. I've done several DE events with the Audi Club. IMO, and experiece the Rx8 will generally handily out perform the newer, but heavier stock 2.7 twin turbo and V8 S4s, as long as the track has enough curves in it to overcome the Audi's decided power advantages.

OTOH, if it snows,

see eg. www.winterdrive.com and
http://www.audiclubrmc.org/Events/Dr...gistration.asp

all bets on the Rx8 are off :-) My 8's since been somewhat modifed for track use, eg. a Willwood front brake kit w 13x1.25" rotors, and a new fuel system see to solve what for me became a significant performance and safety issue with fuel starvation in corners - https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...uel+starvation

I've had more than one Porsche driver & club instructor come up after a run session to ask about the car and favorably comment, after running with the 8, on how well they think it does.

GULAMAN

.

Hey mlx8 & cyberdog, another Audi owner here! I've had an A4 for the past 5 years now, enjoyed AutoXing and tracking it a lot, but really wanted to move back to a 'purer' performace car, hence my new RX8. I must say, getting some initial track time in an AWD platform like the Audis was definitely a good stepping stone, very forgiving overall. But with my improvement as a driver I felt like I really couldn't get much more speed out of the car without spending a lot of money (more than I had already spent in moderate mods)...and thus diminishing returns. The added weight of the Quattro system can be as much a burden as a boon, esp when it's dry out. and of course the power band of the turbo engine, while torquey, is pretty narrow.
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to getting this new car out there in various events this year, and 're-learning' RWD and neutral-balance dynamics!

.

Spin9k

Hey GULAMAN and mlx8, not sure were you're at, but I went with the Audi Club to Mont Tremblant last Oct and I can attest that Audi owners (who came from all over the US for this national meet) who track are a really good bunch of guys and gals, serious in their pursuit of driving enjoyment. Many of the different Audi's in stock/some mods form were pretty easy to pass, esp in the corners, but the full race preped ones were a different story, with grip and HP I can only dream about! Made it all the more fun

I can't wait to track w/them again this year - they put on top flight events!

GULAMAN

Yeah, Spin9k, Audi club guys are great. that M.Tremblant track looks like a beaut too, I'd love to drive there some day. but I'm far far away, I'll have to settle for nearby Laguna and Sears Point in the meantime ;-)
I had the pleasure of getting a ride-along in the Stasis Engineering World Challenge A4 a couple years back, at an Audi Club track day. Wow!!

Audis are good cars to get your feet wet. factory braking systems, understeer, and roll resistance are weak points however, then theres the porky weights too. But as you saw with plenty of $$ and labor they can become formidable; just look at how well they compete in World Challenge pro touring against the factory-backed teams. But by all accounts the RX8 seems so much better suited to performance, right out of the box

Dark8

Would you guys shut up! The RX-8 isn't a good track car - we are all just really good drivers!

mlx8

IME, and I have several very heavily modified UrS4/6's (i.e., the 5 cylinder version) I agree, the Rx8 IS a much better HPDE value right out of the box.

Spin9K I'm very interested in your Traqmate thread. https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...light=traqmate

FWIW, I started looking at getting some type of track timer/dataloging system about a year or so ago when the TraqMate was still in its "vaporware" stage. They were running adds in Grassroot Motorsport Magazine back in February/March, but hadn't yet released a product. That led to a search, and the discovery that a lot of new frims either had, or were the cusp of releasing a slew of (relatively) affordable GPS track timing/maping products.

In addition to Traqmate, I found that some of the other "old line" longer established companies like: AIM's "MXL" system was/is just being updated to include affordable GPS tracking; Race Technologies "DL1" system out of England; and finally Racepak Data in California was just releasing their "G2X" package.

Just when I thought I'd figured out what I wanted, I'd discover some other feature(s) etc that were being added or integrated into either the hardware or software ~ of most interest being the (hopefully) easy ability to integrate a camera video recorder with the track data. I'm very impressed with your last high definition Traqmate thread / demo.

I was ready to pull the trigger and buy a portable system in October in the hopes of taking it to Germany for an Audi DE in the new RS4's at the Nordschlief, and having it ready for the last of the local fall DE, but then in the space of @ a month the Rocky Mountain area lost 3 of the local tracks. Second Creek close for good in November, we knew that was going to happen, but then Pikes Peak Motorspeed way outside of Colorado Springs unexpectedly announced it would be torn down; and the local owners of the Continental Divide track north of Denver apparently ran out of patience in dealing with constant complaints etc, by the local municipalities and decided to close as well. No tracks has put the search for a data logger on hold, but you video etc has rekindled an interet.

FWIW, I've heard a rumor that the AIM MXL offering is "supposed" to be able to plug into the Rx8's databus to capture inputs (e.g rpm and ?? other) directly from the incar systems, which can then be integrated in the the rest of its functions. No idea if this is in fact, or fiction. OTOH, the AIM is, I think, more expensive than the Traqmate, which seems to offer the most for the money.

Spin9k

mlx8, I did some research myself and was in the end intriqued by the Traqmate more than the old guard equipment, because it promised many if not all of the benefits of the old systems without most of the hassle, plus new things not possible before.

BTIM, may peps believe that for accurate data you need sensors hooked everywhere into the car. In fact you do not, but old technology and ideas die slowly as new ways of doing things come to the forefront with technological advances. One thing Traqmate needs now is RPM data, and they'll have the appropriate sensor avail shortly, plus others simply to satisfy the market perceived need, valid or not.

Take the brake sensor. Trackmate does it without one by using -gs and speed. Look at their braking zone map. It's perfect - no additional sensors. I love it. Lap times, just come back to a GPS marker - no track beacon required. etc., etc.

The biggest selling point for me (and how it avoids the need for some hardware sensors) was the Traqmate software. The software interface IS what makes the rest useful. Without an easy to understand, flexible in use, graphically mind-expanding software bundle, all the technology in the world is pretty much worth diddlie. Bits and bytes don't help you drive better, visuals do, showing what actually occurs. Many old guard I found had trouble just getting up a decent website, no less helping me see how their hardware would really help me perform.

Traqmate let me download the software, download real LIVE track data from wonderful tracks around the country, play the data as the end use would, and see the value and feel how it works. Getting my hands on the inner workings was what sold me. I knew with that kind of feedback I would be able to make $10,000 worth of use out of it so for $1K it was a no brainer.

TrackVision, on the other hand, supports many data loggers, Traqmate was just a recent addition. Different loggers have different data, But when I heard about Traqmate being a part of it I thought WOW I get to have my good data for cheap in wonderful detail AND NOW I get to review it again from the driver's seat! $120 bucks - I think they are simply giving this stuff away! Again it's the software stupid !

The HD camera was my own idea - Sony had just come out with it, I hated how sucky my video's resolution was, and I wanted more. With the Sony camera I learned how to cut and edit HD, and the TrackVision miracles of miracles takes the HD .wmv files I create and turns them into what you see 720x480 beautiful clips.

It's a good day in techno land for us track nuts who can deal w/bits and bytes. Knowledge IS power AND speed!

needmorerotors

I seen a video and the rx 8 got the same track time as a 350z and a bmw M3 so my guess is that they handle pretty damn good.I can also tell you that from personal experiece.I raced a dodge srt with stage 2 turbo and he should of smoked me but I made all the time up in the coners so that should tell u enough.

PedalFaster

Unintentional humor alert...

GULAMAN

I've never moved from DOT3->DOT4 on a car before; did you guys do anything special other than getting a thorough flush when switching to DOT4?
I still have 2 unused cans of ATE for my previous car, i'd like to put it to use before I take the RX8 on its first track day.

also, about how much new fluid does the RX8 require for a good flush?

BlueRenesis82

how long were you waiting after parking it to check the level?

Also, how would I go about cleaning pad residue off my rotors? I have a set of StopTech slotted ones that have some buildup on em.

BlueRenesis82

Also, from a guy running a stock suspension with the exception of RB sways and a front strut brace, would it be worth going to the RB springs? Any other recomendations for shocks? Konis?

REMillers

Chime in on this also, at 6'1 almost 6'2 with a helmet and AutoX it is very uncomfortable. If I sit straight up with a slight decline like I do in normal driving my head is at a 45 degree angle with the helmet. If I decline the seat a bit more and sit way foward on the seat I can clear it just barely. Makes for a very very snug fit. I'm scared to turn my head to much for fear of wearing a spot in the head liner

Spin9k

Can't find the system's exact fluid capacity, but the easiest way to insure a good flush is two use a different dyed brake fluid. When it changes color at each wheel, flow a bit more for good measure, then continue. Same color fluid it's pretty hard to tell unless old is dirty looking (really old!).

His estimates of oil use are correct, in my experience. After I do a session (20-25 min) there is a typically a 40-60 minute period before the next one. Check a bit before the new session to be sure the oil level has equalized and you're not overfilling.

Your brake vendor's site is your friend http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_padremoval.shtml

TrackAddict

I have found a single can of ATE (1 liter) is enough to flush the brake system. ATE makes the same fluid in blue and in amber. Alternate betweeen the 2 and you will easily know when all the old fluid is out and the fresh is in.
I hope there is nothing wrong with my car since I don't even use up a quart over the course of a track weekend (8 X 20 minute sessions).

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

^maybe you're not driving hard enough to use enough oil

BlueEyes

I don't think it's the accuracy people are worried about, rather, the range of data available to a unit such as the Traqmate. If I recall correctly it has 9 inputs, the unit I have used in the past, has 40. The Traqmate is actually quite limited in it's capabilities, but, the information it does provide is the fundamentals. It is surely quite useful to anyone but the most serious of track junkies.

As well, it is by no means a new idea, nor replacing anything. Cars have used accelerometers/GPS to gather data for years. What appears to be new, is the user interface and availability

moto_bruce

I was doing some thinking about the DSC issue and I believe it comes down to driving style on whether or not it is a nuisance for the driver out on track.

I assume that the DSC was designed primarily for normal road speeds first. I will use some San Diego roads for example, I'm sorry for those who are not familiar. Think about your favorite chunck of black top, maybe something like Palomar Mtn road. It has tight switchbacks up one grade, and more sweeping up the other grade towards the summit. Your speed through the tight stuff midturn is only 30-40mph. On the wider stuff, midturn speeds are probably 45-55mph. I may be hitting speeds in excess between turns, but generally the turn speeds aren't close to the high speeds I may hit between turns.

The most critical point in the turn is the point were I'm getting off the brakes and stablizing the car. I trailbrake a little bit, it is natural for me. This is the point where the chassis is the most unstable as I am shifting weight from forward to aft as I ease off the brakes and squeeze on the throttle and I am also shifting weight left to right as I dial in more steering input. Think about every time you lost it or nearly lost it whether auto-x or taking a spirited drive and probably most of the time you scared yourself was at this point in the turn.

As I slip the car into the turn (everyone slips the car, even your grandma, just not that much), the DSC starts watching me. If the amount of slip I generate is more than what DSC is programmed as safe, it takes action. No surprise.

Now this is where I make another assumption. I assume that the rate at which a driver slips the car is also watched by DSC. I initiate slip slowly into the turn until the car is set. So for me when DSC intervenes, I wasn't changing my slip angle at a high rate anyway so I see it as gentle intervention. Some drivers are really good mature trailbrakers and are comfortable initiating good slip angles and do it quickly. DSC feels more like a wall when it intervenes.

Think about being out on track and the speeds. The slow corners on track are like the fast ones out on a drive and the fast corners are really, really fast. You are already operating the car that much closer to its limit, and you have less in reserve. When DSC intervenes it will feel more intrusive because you have less in reserve, you have less reserve traction.

For me out on track, right now, DSC doesn't slow me down. If you are a stronger trailbraker, I can see how DSC would feel too intrusive. If you are new to trackin' and feel like the DSC is intervening too much, be careful about disabling it. You may be a natural trailbraker and a demon on the slow pedal. But the RX8 has a very low polar moment which is why is just seems to go where ever you point it. With the DSC off, you can easily point it into a spin. Your corrections must be quick and deliberate.

BTW, just because you have DSC on doesn't mean you can't spin the car! Done that.

Bruce

Spin9k

Good observations moto_bruce. I'm confused by the number of drivers that feel DSC intrudes (bothers) during their driving and say "turn the stupid thing off all the time" or "real drivers don't use DSC", things like that. It's rather curious, I wish I could see the programming parameters for how DSC decides to activate. I've only felt DSC *on the street* in taking off from a side road quick where it of course catches the tail under throttle if it goes out. I'm glad for that. Being a flatlander, we don't have much in the way of challenging roads, plus there's lots of traffic, and I believe I drive conservatively usually.

On the track, when I leave DSC full on, it activates occassionally under extreme conditions, but sometimes not. Perhaps the amount it interfers is inversely proportional to how smoothly you drive. I find I do leave DSC on more on *long stretched out tracks* rather than *shorter technical tracks* (for reasons given below).

I have to drive my car home from the track, and DSC is something I feel helps me do that at certain tracks. My driving style is not one where I race up to the apex at full throttle before a turn, stand on the brake to the ABS engage point, crank the wheel and slide around the corner. Perhaps if I did I would feel alot more DSC intrusion. But I don't.

What I've experienced generally is decelerating into a tight turn (~70-90 degrees) from high speed (80-100mph) as I enter the turn (what seems to be) the outside front wheel will go into ABS mode briefly, maybe once or twice for a 1/2 sec - I may not be correct in which wheel or wheels, but that's about the only times I feel it intrude. I don't think it slows me down much. I use it to tell me I wasn't smooth enough at that particular point. Why? because I think the DSC engage points have quite a wide envelope and they're just gently telling me I'm stepping on the ragged edge, and I could have technically done better at that point.

Maybe I'm not going fast enough, but I don't use the brakes much during turns (I've already slowed), and pretty much after the apex I modulate a bit then full speed ahead as soon as I've setup correctly. There's generally not enough power there to modulate after that, I just mash and go unless it's a sweeper or an 'S' turn. I just feel like DSC could possibly save my butt in a bad situation, and it doesn't seem to intrude terribly.

On short technical tracks with turns everywhere and straights that don't go over 100, I useally turn off DSC as it does seem to *modulate engine power* too much under those situations, forget braking for the moment. I can really feel the difference, and it slows me down alot. Here I modulate power and brake constantly, and trail brake as turns and straights are almost one and the same.

There's a lot of variables that come into play...driving style, road or track conditions, tires, etc., but I feel that in certain circumstances the car's electronics is my friend, and I welcome it - and in other conditions I prefer to go it alone, taking no offense to turning off what I consider good and sophisticated tools that are useful given the right situations.

IOW I think the car is an excellent corner carver with all the right tools available for the job at hand and I'm appreciative of the designers passion for handling exellence by also including good DSC, TCS, and ABS programming.

Spin9k

I'd be keen to know what 40 parameters are useful to the most serious of track junkies. Beyond that how do you analyze or aggregate that amount of data into a form that helps you?

My mind wanders to pics of auto manufactures with test mules and wires and computers all over, under, and on top of a car to gather whatever, but I'd like to know more about gathering these quantities of data *for iimproving ones driving*? Or would it be more along the lines of *shaking out a new race car's mechanical systems*?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

great description of the on the track dsc stuff. On tracks such as Road Atlanta with very little run off believe you be i leave it ON. Just have to drive smoother.
Olddragger

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

I have asked this before but since this thread has turned into a kind of all track questions discussions thread i thought i would ask this. I have been running pre mix(and we have discussed this before) on the track only because i am a little concerned with my beer keg engine getting enough oil at substained high rpm. My question is --I wonder if pre mix actually changes the power output any? I know it feels a little smoother but I really haven't did(nor do I know of any) tests relative to that. Ideas anyone? Think it may increase compression a little? Now we are talking of a 5oz per 16 gal mix--not a whole lot. And if this is hijacking well its unintentional.
olddragger

BlueRenesis82

I wouldnt assume it would alter your power output, simply because the oil doesnt actually burn for power in the engine, it just burns to help keep the seals lubricated. All the 7 owners that do it do it for improved engine life, not to add on additional power. If you went and added a turbo or SC, the you might have a differenet answer

moto_bruce

Spin9k,

I agree with you and I think my driving style is similar to yours. Slow hands, slow input into the car, except for correction. I'm really trying to be as smooth as possible, but it is work and takes the concerted effort of my appendages.

I can understand your point about turning it off for slower tight courses. The extreme example for slower and tight is auto-x and I certainly turn it off for that. I have to because I'm more likely to slip the rear end of the car quickly to tighten up a turn or even steer with the rear end. I'm comfortable doing it at auto-x speeds. Most of my recent track days have been Watkins Glen and it ain't slow. There are some places where I will steer with the rear and the DSC will actually let me do it, a little bit, but not much.

I'm just not sure what the car does when it finally lets go at higher speed. I made a mistake a couple of years ago at Willow Springs (DSC on) and spun the car under throttle. I was coming out of turn 3 (left) going up the hill towards turn 4 (right) and I spun. It was a hot day, my tires were a bit greasy and I think I ran into some marbles as I was slightly off line, as well as a change in the incline of the hill which probabaly contributed by unweighting the suspension a little bit. It seemed to go quickly. Actually, I didn't deal with the situation properly and put the car into a situation that no driver aid was going to help.

It is the low polar moment that keeps me cautious about turning DSC off. Auto-x speeds, no problem, works to my advantage to turn it off. But the high speed stuff... Low polar moment to me means a car that is quick to change direction. That is good if controlled. But it also means you have to be really quick to catch it.

I had mentioned earlier that the car is great for those new to motorsport and those with experience. I think the low polar moment is one of those things that appeals to advanced drivers because they have great car control and are better at manipulated the slip angles of the front and rear tires, while those that are earlier in the learning curve can benefit from DSC. Can't treat DSC by itself, it is part of the package.

Bruce

Spin9k

My fun experience I'm sure you can relate to was turn 1 at WG last summer. Day didn't start well, got lost getting to the track, no coffee therefore, ended up showing up late, had to quickly unload in the parking lot, get inspected during the 1st run group up, my video cam was broken upon unpacking (in hindsight, just luck, no visual proof ), you get the idea.

Turned off the DSC 1st session - mistake! Hindsight says, cold tires, shaky me, didn't mash the loud pedal at 1st sense of disaster...I think it was 1st off-yellow lap I did a 360 *in* turn 1 with traffic all over my ***. It was all over in a second, fortunately I spun to the inside right at pit out. No harm no foul except to my sensibilities for the rest of the day as I entered turn one each time thereafter!

The 200' off-camber radius 18, where you join back into the short course leaving the boot is the place where I feel the elctronics make the car feel most different. With it on, the rear end kinda feels disconnected and loose as the brakes seem to pull the rear out alot to get you around the corner as safely as possible; with it off it feels like a regular corner, that is, going reasonable speeds.... that armor plate at the run out is about 12" off the edge of the track, as I'm sure you remember, and makes an imposing impression!

spin