BlueRenesis82

oh yeah base's dont have that. Almost killed myself in a non DSC equipped car on my test drive!

But it is fun to hang it all out and not have a computer pull your fun

MazdaRich

I've driven my base at the track a couple of times. It's pretty mild and easy to control--in fact the only time I've spun the car (aside from autocross) was at about 10 mph going around a corner on the street when it was cold outside. It made me a little gunshy about driving in the cold on the stock tires.

You won't stress the car much on the stock tires at most tracks. The brakes should hold up fine--just limit yourself to 20 minutes. Upgrade fluid and pads if you plan to change tires or go longer than 20 minute stints.

Personally if I was looking for a track-only car I'd buy something like an old Miata so I wouldn't have to worry as much about putting it in a wall. I thought my suspension-modified Miata was as much fun at a track as the RX-8. The 8 has so much power that it can get a little scary at times, but the suspension is so good that it always remains composed. Then again you can always get track-day insurance.

avakiannl

iTrader: (1)

Where do you get track-day insurance?

Jay Goldfarb

I finally have to add my 2 cents worth on the subject of DSC on the track. As an instructor with NASA, BMW CCA, PCA & PBOC, I never have a student leave on their DSC. The object os HPDE is to learn to drive your car, not have your car drive you. Students all want to go fast, but it's always best to slow down, learn the line, track, brake points, turn in, apex, track out, etc... Build speed as the student progresses.

8/10ths is max for HPDE. I did get a laugth about lots of runoff at Roebling. You don't want to go off at that track anyway but straight. Sand slows you down real fast and if sideways it is a sure roll. I can tell you this from experience.

For newbies to track, I recommend good brake fluid and lots of seat time before spending bucks to improve car. Than I suggest, brake pad upgrade, sway bars, springs and shocks. Than you can become a comlete nut like me and go to the extreme.

Mods to date: Seats, roll bar, 5 point harness, oil temp and pressure guages, lighten flywheel, tein flex with electronic control unit, Random tech cat, borla exhaust, CCW's racing 9 x 18 one piece wheels with toyo Ra1's, StopTech front brakes, Pads (Colbalt VR's front, Halk HP10 rear (sometimes use blues all around -Sebring). MS nose and rear spoiler. Not sure what's next, but it new strut tower brace seems to be calling.

Anyone who wants to, feel free to email me at: jayg@printwithbudget.com with questions.

Jay Goldfarb

BlueEyes

Or be a complete nutter and buy a race car!!

Jay Goldfarb

been there, done that. Sold alum. trailer and race prepared M3 6 years ago. Sold street E-36 M3 two years ago for the RX8. It had 140,000 miles on it and 28 track days. It was tired.

It is only a matter of time, that I start over and ditch HPDE and go back to racing.

Jay

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

next time I'd recommend the hollow aluminum trailer ...

Jay Goldfarb

Is that anything like a hollow brain

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

don't be dense ...

TrackAddict

Jay - with your experience, correct me if I am wrong as I really am working on my skills.

I have been doing some reading to try to understand more about what goes on with the car and driving technique on the track and I think I am beginning to get a better understanding. I first started doing HPDEs in Sept of 2004 and have 7 such events to date. Although I am not very experienced, I feel like I have learned a lot and progressed over this period. OK, those are my qualifications or lack thereof...
In the early stages of performance driving you spend most of your time learning the line. The car is far from its limits so you can drive as fast as you are comfortable, make corrections and DSC stays out of it. The occaisonal mistake wakes it up and it saves you. All is well and it has done its job. Hopefully you analyze what you did that made it come on and avoid unsettling the car like that. There is plenty of learning to be had this way in my opinion and a good recommendation for someone who just wants to enjoy their car on track.
Then as you get more seat time, speeds start increasing. This is because you learned your way around the track and can thus carry more speed. However, at a certain point, you find yourself driving the car fast enough that DSC intervenes all the time. You get to a certain point that initial turn in gives you a bit of understeer (which is natural in street cars). Understeer gives way to a 4 wheel drift (which is natural when you reach the grip limits of your tires), and finally you make throttle adjustments to tuck the nose in (oversteer) to make a nice tight apex. The understeer to drift to oversteer throws DSC into a frenzy trying to stop this craziness. In short, it gets in the way. To drive like this, you must turn off DSC. So if the goal is to pick up more and more speed on the track, you will reach a point where DSC is an aid that will slow you down. On a stock suspension, DSC allows a lot more freedom to understeer/drift/oversteer than what it allows with stiffer sways/springs.
So DSC is not all bad, but at a certain point in ability and speed, it becomes a limiting factor. I don't think it is a good idea to just throw your car around and count on DSC to save you because you will never learn that way. However, it does provide a safety net if you approach performance driving with the intent to work on skills and build up to a point where you must turn it off.

Jay Goldfarb

Track Addict

You said it perfectly. You are now at a level where DSC will hurt the learning curve. Think of your instructor as your DSC. If he or she is doing things right, they should keep you out of trouble before you get in over your head. By the way, that's easier said than done. The instructors job is to keep you under control so that you can learn. It's why schools such as Skip Barber, Bondurant keep students away from the full redline and power curves until they are ready.

When you make changes to the car, try to limit what you change at a given time, so that you can get a feel of what the change has done to the car. Also try to ride with your instructor in their car if possible. Hope that helps.

Jay

expo1

Jay I think I am about at the same level, as Track Addict and I want to second that tip, taking a ride with an instructor does wonders for the learning curve. Not having to worry about what gear your in, wrecking your car lets you focus on what the driver is doing to take the fastest line. In regards to DSC what I do is on a wet track DSC on all the time. If it’s dry I just leave it on for the first run of the first day till I am comfortable with the track layout.

Stop&TurnFreak

Always, Always, ride with your instructor, NEVER try to do what they do, should they show you 'too' much. It is easy for the brain to get your body in a situation it can't get out of.

Riding is several RX8's I have found, as you start to mod the suspension, and add grippier (sp) tires, DSC becomes far more intrusive. One thing I try to do is drive a car to the limit but be smooth enough not to trigger DSC. I ran a totally stock RX8 on bad street tires to a 1:28's at Roebling, with the DSC on. Turning it off only netted me another 2/10's, maybe.

But, when I drove a couple other cars with sways and c/o's I couldn't make a move without the DSC going nuts and pulsing like crazy. Turn it off, and the suspension mods really show what the car is capable off.

BlueRenesis82

I always ran with mine turned off....gives you a sense of whats really happening

Jay Goldfarb

I am now going to add another factor to the equation of enjoying your RX8 on the track, or any other car on the track.

Learn to heel and toe your braking and downshifts. Unless you are in an automatic, there is no way to get the full enjoyment of the really good chasis of the 8 by upsetting the balance of the car without proper braking techniques.

If anyone needs instructions on these technique feel free to ask. It is essential to learn this before you get to the track and not while learning a **** load of other things.

Jay Goldfarb
Instructor with: NASA, BMW CCA, PBOC & PCA

expo1

I still need to work on that. Which method do you feel works best with the RX-8’s pedals? The ball of the foot on the brake, heel on the gas like in the Time Attack video? Or the left side of foot on the brake / right side of foot on the gas?

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

depends on the size and width of your foot. I have size 11 feet, and the most efficient way for me to heel toe is ball of right foot on the brake pedal, and turn my foot just enough that i can blip the gas pedal with the *side* of my right foot

the key to me in doing the heel toe is learning how to be gentle on the brake pedal, meaning know how to modulate the brake pedal so that when you brake you're not upsetting the chassis, yet at same time you're not stabbing the brake so hard that your right foot is 'off balance' and you are unable to turn your right foot to reach the gas pedal, and have the touch to blip just enough to allow for smooth downshift

it's all about having a soft foot and know how to apply pressure on the pedals *gently yet firmly*

BlueRenesis82

yeah, once you learn how to heel toe in the 8, its a thing of beauty approaching turns and downshifting

Jay Goldfarb

ZoomZoomH is almost right in his approach to Heel and Toe. Ball of foot on brake and side of foot blips the throttle. Gentle on brake is not the right approach to high performance driving and braking. When I raced my M3, I used the Anti-Lock all the time. It was a progressive hard brake. I didn't just slam on the brake, but it was a quick progressive motion and it's the same in the 8 or any car on the track. One of the reasons to lower and use stiffer springs is to minimize the forward transfer of weight during braking. In a stock car the front dives more and thus transfers more weight. Try trail braking in a stock car and one that is lowered and you will see a tremendous difference in handling. The blip of the throttle is when you are well into the braking zone and almost at the point of brake release, but not quite.

For those not sure how to do it, practice with a hard push on the brake while standing still and roll the side of your foot and blip the throttle. Once able to do it standing still than try on the road. Not easy to do if you use a light braking motion.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

um, i was talking about doing heel toe ON THE STREET, i think trying to brake to the point of kicking in ABS all the time will result in A LOT of rear-ending of your car by unsuspecting drivers

but yea, on the track brake as hard and and deep into the corner as you and your car is capable of, on the street, not so much though

BlueRenesis82

Going banzai into a corner doesnt always result in better lap times tho, you want to know what type of corner it is, and brake as necessary.