I'm looking into a budget suspension for daily driving and autocross. I don't really care what SCCA class I will fall into since I mostly do local S2000 and BMWCCA club events. For 500-600 would you guys rather have stock springs and Koni SA (yellow) or the Tein Basics? I guess the trade off is shock adjustability for stiffer spring rates.

Does anyone know how well the tein basic shocks are mated to the spring rates or even what the spring rates are for the RX8? Everything else is stock on the car except it will be on 275/40/17 tires. Also on a sidenote, does anyone know where I can find some Tein Super Streets? Those have stiffer spring rates and shock adjustability.

 

For the money, I'd probably go with the Konis. Oh wait. I will be going with the Konis. However, I'm biased, since I am concerned with SCCA classing.

OTOH... For more $$$ a nice set of Tein Flex would be really sweet on my Miata about now...

 

I wish I could spend the 1400 for the Flex but I just bought Jim Harris's 17X9.5 Enkeis and I need to spend another 600+ on 275/40/17 tires so the bank account is hurting. I know the konis are good but I'm more or less wondering if a non adjustable shock coilover with well matched stiffer spring rates would give me an overall better advantage.

Are you going to be racing the RX8 or Miata next season?

 

TC, can we presume that you'll be joining the local BS contingent next season, or are you going to keep the training wheels attached an run in the Tire class?

Cosmos, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably opt for the Konis. They're inexpensive, a proven quantity, you can compare notes to all the B Stock cars in the DFW area, and you'll still have the option of using those fancy 17" wheels for daily driving, slapping some V710s on your OEM wheels and coming to play with a large local B Stock class.

If you buy the Teins - especially the non-adjustable Basics - you will have done two things. First, you'll have started down the long, slippery road to BSP or STU, either of which will require a significant investment if you decide in the future that you want to be more competitive. Second you'll end up with a car that is likely more uncomfortable to daily drive, yet no faster than a B Stock car. Been there, done that with the Miata, went back to Stock, had more fun, spent less money, had a more comfortable car to drive on the street.

If I'm not mistaken, you only started to autocross in the last year or so. Don't make the mistake of throwing a lot of money at the car (which I get the feeling is the road you're headed down), when you could have just as much fun, go just as fast, become a better driver, and have a lot more competition for less money. Just my humble opinion. If there's anything I've learned, it's that the quickest way to get faster is to run in a strong class where you're constantly forced to improve your game to keep up.

 

BTW Cosmos, are you sure those Enkei's are 17"x9.5"? I could have sworn Jim used to use 285/30-18 V710s on them. These are his old NT03s, right? Maybe he had two different sets.

 

Threadjack - I noticed Jim was co-driving Mark's BSP car at the last event, and now he's sold you his wheels. Did he get rid of the Evo?

 

Thanks for the advice, I'm not trying to throw money at the car by any means. If that were the case I'd just opt for some KW V3's. I drove the RX8 bone stock most of this season and I liked it but I just wish I had a bit more grip than the factory 225 bridgestones offer. Jim made me a great deal I couldn't resist on those NT03+Ms so I figured I'd just go to some 275's and save my stock tires for commuting.

The wheels are in fact 17X9.5 ET 44 and they look small on the car. In fact, the reason he sold them to me is that he wanted to go to a 18" race wheel/tire. I believe the 18's you are thinking about are his street wheel/tire SSR GT2's. I believe he's going to a 285/30/18 race wheel/tire next season (like he needs the extra low end grunt) . Additionally, another reason I bought the wheels is that 17 inch tires are far cheaper and even though Bstock is a less expensive class to run overall I don't want to spend at least 1000 bucks on V710's a season.

The plans in the future may change if I do decide to ever try SCCA but for now I'm having a blast in BMWCCA's Y class and S2000 other and I think a decent inexpensive suspension and some bigger tires would be a good upgrade and make the car more fun to drive. I guess I just need to find a car with street tires and konis and see how it feels. I'm just a bit worried that with the konis set to stiff for autocross it would be an uncomfortable ride during the week (and I don't plan on removing my shocks every week to change the rear settings)

 

He corded a V710 on saturday so he co-drive on sunday. I still have the V710's on the wheels right now and they'll probably be thrown away before next season when I slap on some street tires.

By the way, how do you guys fit 4 wheels and tools etc in the car? I couldn't find a way to stuff 4 of those 17's in the backseat (2 on each side). I ended up putting 3 in the back and 1 in the trunk.

 

I say get neither - get the Tokico D-Specs instead. Performance on par with Koni yellows, but you can adjust the rears while they are on the car, allowing you to get a great ride/handling combo on the street but fast transitions on the autocross course.

Either way, getting the adjustable shocks instead of the Basics probably gives you a better upgrade path. It will be easier and cheaper to put stiffer springs or GC coilovers on the Tokicos or Konis, as opposed to upgrading the Basic dampers with adjustable shocks, in which case you may want stiffer springs anyway.

In general I agree with altiain about the slippery slope, but your wheels put you out of stock class anyway, and stiffer springs will make the car more fun on an autocross course. So you might as well think in those terms, long term anyway.

 

LOL, performance on par ...

 

Yeah, I thought I'd get a reaction from that. I've driven a Koni equipped car, and two Koni drivers have driven my car, and in all cases setup issues (such as rear toe or sway bar stiffness) had more to do with the handling difference than the shocks.

But, I'll admit that since the performance is so close it's impossible to say which damper is faster on any given course without a methodological comparison, which nobody is likely to do. If one or the other is faster it's very close.

Regardless of the perceived or real performance difference, for somebody who just wants to have fun on the weekends with their daily driver the Tokicos are the obvious choice. But I know some of the readers on this board will never accept that.

 

pm

beers

 

maybe that says more about you George than the shocks?

 

Top Tokico RX8 was 15th place at the Solo Natls, ever other RX8 on Konis, does not even seem close to me.

I can not think of any class at natls where a Tokico car won, even got trophy for that matter....

I will agree that for someone that is not serious, just going to run a few events and wants a upgrade from stock, the Tokico would be an ok choice.

 

I guess I would say I'm inbetween. While i'm not trying to be nationally competitive I still like to do well and place in the local club events but i'm not willing to have an uncomfortable back breaking ride to do so. The only thing that worried me about the konis is setting them at a level that would be tolerable for the street but not stiff enough to make a difference over stock at autocross. I know the cables with the Tokicos are nice but I just never really liked that brand on my previous cars. Seems like their previous top of the line Illuminas were already a step behind back in the day to some of the Koni offerings.

I'm definetely trying to mod my car for the most fun not to meet SCCA classing rules...for now at least. Also I didn't notice a GC coilover offering for the RX8 on their website, but that could definetely be considered in case I do ever want to race in STU SCCA.

 

adjust the rear Konis at the halfway (50%) rebound setting and leave them

I'm not a fan of Tein either, I put them in the same league as Tokico, GAB, etc., the bottom line is they do not come close to Koni WRT piston valve technology/sophistication, they're really just needle valve adjusters

I would be careful with GC if it uses their Advance Design race shock. They use O-rings for sliding seals rather than a more sophisticated lip seal. O-ring sliding seals wear quickly, especially for everyday street use. They are known for leaking, but can be rebuilt at home if you are so inclined and don't mind the maintenance. If they have a Koni-based CO offering that would be better for a street car

 

Is 50% stiff enough to make a noticable difference over stock at an autocross? I'll be running considerably wider and stickier tires (275 wide falkens or kumho MX) than the stock bridgestones and a friend of mine who went to a 245 RT615 this season already noticed a good bit of body roll so I need the shocks to help eliminate some of that.

If some of you koni equipped guys who daily drive your car can vouch for a good compromise between street comfort and autocross performance I'll probably just get the Konis and then look for a spring/coilover later. As far as I know GC doesn't make anything for the RX8 as it stands.

 

Oh come on Jason, you know that argument is BS. 15th at nats was me. My shocks weren't holding me back, my driving skill was. That was my first time at nats, my first year competing nationally, and my first year I ran a complete season on R-compound tires in ANY class. I think I did damn well considering.

At nats, I was 0.5 seconds out of the trophies. If had been able to get a "good" run on the south course, which is to say if I had been able to get a run that reflected the best of MY abilities on both courses as opposed to just one, I would have trophied. I did trophy at the Packwood NT. So clearly the D-Specs are competitive at the national level.

Will they ever win a championship? Probably not - the Konis have the advantage of being rebuildable, and they have a (well deserved) legacy among most top autocrossers (with the remainder seeming to prefer Bilsteins or Penskes, etc).

BUT the D-Specs are better than anything Tokico has done before, and I do believe they are the equal, more or less, to OTS Koni Yellows. I would never have said that about Illuminas but the D-Specs are much better. Driving is believing.

To CosmosMPower, I'd say don't believe the BS line that the D-Specs are "OK" for local use but you'll be leaving time on the course unless you buy Konis. IF the Konis are faster it might be 0.1 or 0.2 seconds over a 60 second course. AND the only way you'll realize that difference, assuming it even exists, is if you set them to a fairly high level of damping. On an autocross course, I'd put my D-Specs at full-stiff up against a set of Koni yellows at half-stiff any day. And on the street the opposite holds true - I'd much rather drive my car on Tokicos at half-stiff than Konies at 3/4 or full stiff on a daily basis - both from a performance and and comfort standpoint.

Konis are a great shock, but they dropped the ball on the rears with the RX-8. Time was, they could have gotten away with that. But Tokico now has a legitamate alternative to the Konis, IMO. Neil Young said "change comes slow in the country" and the same could be said of the autocross crowd. So I don't expect the Koni faithful to agree with what I'm saying. But my experieces have shown me that the D-Specs are more than just "OK."

 

I've never driven a Tokico-equipped RX-8, so I won't say anything for or against that particular combination.

As for Konis on the street - mine are set at 1/4 turn from full stiff, and Jon's are 1/2 turn from full stiff. I've driven both cars on the street, and both are reasonably comfortable, considering what the car is intended for. You won't confuse either of them with a Town Car, but neither is intolerable for commuting or long distance driving. Mine is comfortable enough that my wife - who is notoriously intolerable of stiffly suspended cars and refused to ride in my Miata more than half a dozen times over the five years I owned it - fell asleep in the passenger seat of the RX-8 on the hour's drive to Thanksgiving dinner last week.

I don't know what part of the Metromess you live in, but you're always welcome to come by some time and drive my car on the street to see what an RX-8 with OTS Konis feels like for daily driving.

 

Thanks, that's basically the info I was looking for. I think half turn from full stiff would be ok for me, I don't mind some stiffness but I just don't want a back breaking ride (afterall the RX8 is VERY comfortable for a sports car) which is part of the reason why I got it over the S2000.

I'm in the lewisville area but next time I'm over by Allen/Plano I might give you a ring. How hard was the install?

 

Great info as well, and I think it's a very valid point that running the Tokicos might be equal or even have an advantage at full stiff vs leaving the rear Konis at half or 1/4 turn from full stiff at autocross. Additionally, being able to change back to stock comfort level is appealing. Also I believe the Tokicos are even cheaper, I do remember having to pay extra for the cables though.

Guess I have to do some more research and drive a koni equipped car to decide.

 

No prob. You've got my number, iirc. Regarding install: I bought my car with the shocks already installed, but I think Jon said it took him 6-7 hours to do the whole job solo with hand tools. I'd be willing to help you do the install in my garage on a free weekend, if you need help.

 

Oh yeah, i forgot you bought the vinyl beast already put together

Thanks for the kind offer, I'll give you a call sometime when I'm in your neck of the woods. Trying to get some info on the cheapest place to source them, I believe another local guy bought 4 sets from a vendor for around 500 shiped a set so I may do that with the other local guy that has the black one with 17" bronze wheels for next season.

 

I'm sure they are, but my point is you don't have to settle for "reasonably" comfortable with the D-Specs. And, I do think you give up grip on the street, particularly over wet and/or imperfect roads, when you run the car in an over-damped mode. I'm not saying it's a safety thing - I'm sure an RX-8 with full or near-full stiff shocks still has more grip than your average car on the road - but it's a compromise that's not necessary with the D-Specs.

And, I have the luxury of softening both ends for a wet event, or when one of the regular lots is particularly rough, as it is here in PDX.

Anyway, this has been hashed over before so it's getting a bit old. Either way will work, no doubt about it. I just don't see a compelling reason for the Konis at this point in history.

 

Way early to presume anything. :-) Heck... it's early enough that my wife could steal the RX-8 from me still. Not likely, but it could happen.

I got the 8 because I've wanted one since the first one hit the dealer lot. I just ran out of excuses to not have one. It's gonna be tough to run a full autocross schedule next year, so it's likely going to be on street tires, but like I said... It's early.