Koni SA or Tein Basics
11-30-2006 | 11:47 AM
#26
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Oh yeah, i forgot you bought the vinyl beast already put together 
Thanks for the kind offer, I'll give you a call sometime when I'm in your neck of the woods. Trying to get some info on the cheapest place to source them, I believe another local guy bought 4 sets from a vendor for around 500 shiped a set so I may do that with the other local guy that has the black one with 17" bronze wheels for next season.
Thanks for the kind offer, I'll give you a call sometime when I'm in your neck of the woods. Trying to get some info on the cheapest place to source them, I believe another local guy bought 4 sets from a vendor for around 500 shiped a set so I may do that with the other local guy that has the black one with 17" bronze wheels for next season.
11-30-2006 | 12:03 PM
#27
Originally Posted by GeorgeH
Oh come on Jason, you know that argument is BS. 15th at nats was me. My shocks weren't holding me back, my driving skill was. That was my first time at nats, my first year competing nationally, and my first year I ran a complete season on R-compound tires in ANY class. I think I did damn well considering.
At nats, I was 0.5 seconds out of the trophies. If had been able to get a "good" run on the south course, which is to say if I had been able to get a run that reflected the best of MY abilities on both courses as opposed to just one, I would have trophied. I did trophy at the Packwood NT. So clearly the D-Specs are competitive at the national level.
Will they ever win a championship? Probably not - the Konis have the advantage of being rebuildable, and they have a (well deserved) legacy among most top autocrossers (with the remainder seeming to prefer Bilsteins or Penskes, etc).
BUT the D-Specs are better than anything Tokico has done before, and I do believe they are the equal, more or less, to OTS Koni Yellows. I would never have said that about Illuminas but the D-Specs are much better. Driving is believing.
To CosmosMPower, I'd say don't believe the BS line that the D-Specs are "OK" for local use but you'll be leaving time on the course unless you buy Konis. IF the Konis are faster it might be 0.1 or 0.2 seconds over a 60 second course. AND the only way you'll realize that difference, assuming it even exists, is if you set them to a fairly high level of damping. On an autocross course, I'd put my D-Specs at full-stiff up against a set of Koni yellows at half-stiff any day. And on the street the opposite holds true - I'd much rather drive my car on Tokicos at half-stiff than Konies at 3/4 or full stiff on a daily basis - both from a performance and and comfort standpoint.
Konis are a great shock, but they dropped the ball on the rears with the RX-8. Time was, they could have gotten away with that. But Tokico now has a legitamate alternative to the Konis, IMO. Neil Young said "change comes slow in the country" and the same could be said of the autocross crowd. So I don't expect the Koni faithful to agree with what I'm saying. But my experieces have shown me that the D-Specs are more than just "OK."
At nats, I was 0.5 seconds out of the trophies. If had been able to get a "good" run on the south course, which is to say if I had been able to get a run that reflected the best of MY abilities on both courses as opposed to just one, I would have trophied. I did trophy at the Packwood NT. So clearly the D-Specs are competitive at the national level.
Will they ever win a championship? Probably not - the Konis have the advantage of being rebuildable, and they have a (well deserved) legacy among most top autocrossers (with the remainder seeming to prefer Bilsteins or Penskes, etc).
BUT the D-Specs are better than anything Tokico has done before, and I do believe they are the equal, more or less, to OTS Koni Yellows. I would never have said that about Illuminas but the D-Specs are much better. Driving is believing.
To CosmosMPower, I'd say don't believe the BS line that the D-Specs are "OK" for local use but you'll be leaving time on the course unless you buy Konis. IF the Konis are faster it might be 0.1 or 0.2 seconds over a 60 second course. AND the only way you'll realize that difference, assuming it even exists, is if you set them to a fairly high level of damping. On an autocross course, I'd put my D-Specs at full-stiff up against a set of Koni yellows at half-stiff any day. And on the street the opposite holds true - I'd much rather drive my car on Tokicos at half-stiff than Konies at 3/4 or full stiff on a daily basis - both from a performance and and comfort standpoint.
Konis are a great shock, but they dropped the ball on the rears with the RX-8. Time was, they could have gotten away with that. But Tokico now has a legitamate alternative to the Konis, IMO. Neil Young said "change comes slow in the country" and the same could be said of the autocross crowd. So I don't expect the Koni faithful to agree with what I'm saying. But my experieces have shown me that the D-Specs are more than just "OK."
It is not just a matter of how they are set, the design and engineering of the product is the main thing, how it is set is secondary. You can polish a turd all day it is still a turd. You start with a better engineered shock no matter how the driver screws it up it will still work better.
You are correct at best it may only be a tenth or two better..... Anyone notice the margin in BS this year?
If you buy a shock based on the ability to adjust it over the shocks internal workings you are compromising, end of story.
11-30-2006 | 12:24 PM
#28
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
You are correct at best it may only be a tenth or two better..... Anyone notice the margin in BS this year?
If you buy a shock based on the ability to adjust it over the shocks internal workings you are compromising, end of story.
If you buy a shock based on the ability to adjust it over the shocks internal workings you are compromising, end of story.
Now, as for you comment about the quality of the internal workings, this is precisely where I feel Tokico has upped it's game. I completely agree about the importance of the internal engineering and quality of construction. Again, the D-Specs seem to be a big step up from older Tokico designs. Perhaps I'm wrong but they certainly feel fantastic, both on the road and while competing.
But, if I interpret your comment correctly, you think the Konis will be faster, regardless of the damping level (within reason, anyway). Which is to say, they will generate incrementally more grip in a sweeper, for example. Is that what you are saying?
11-30-2006 | 02:01 PM
#29
Thread Starter
1935 lbs. FTW!
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From: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
Why deal with putting a group deal together when you can get them from dpeweb.com for $550.00 shipped...
11-30-2006 | 02:09 PM
#30
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Good point, but 50 bucks savings X3 or 4 sets is still a decent chunk of change. Plus I have next to free overnight shpping anyways since I work for Fedex.
As I recall it took the other guy some time to get four people together.
Last edited by ULLLOSE; 11-30-2006 at 02:14 PM.
11-30-2006 | 02:11 PM
#31
Originally Posted by altiain
it took him 6-7 hours to do the whole job solo with hand tools.
11-30-2006 | 02:12 PM
#32
Originally Posted by GeorgeH
As for your margin of victory, yup I know what it is. And, if I was driving at your level, I'd be skeptical of the D-Specs as well. But I'm not so I don't see a reason to accept the compromise of the fixed rear shocks.
Now, as for you comment about the quality of the internal workings, this is precisely where I feel Tokico has upped it's game. I completely agree about the importance of the internal engineering and quality of construction. Again, the D-Specs seem to be a big step up from older Tokico designs. Perhaps I'm wrong but they certainly feel fantastic, both on the road and while competing.
But, if I interpret your comment correctly, you think the Konis will be faster, regardless of the damping level (within reason, anyway). Which is to say, they will generate incrementally more grip in a sweeper, for example. Is that what you are saying?
Now, as for you comment about the quality of the internal workings, this is precisely where I feel Tokico has upped it's game. I completely agree about the importance of the internal engineering and quality of construction. Again, the D-Specs seem to be a big step up from older Tokico designs. Perhaps I'm wrong but they certainly feel fantastic, both on the road and while competing.
But, if I interpret your comment correctly, you think the Konis will be faster, regardless of the damping level (within reason, anyway). Which is to say, they will generate incrementally more grip in a sweeper, for example. Is that what you are saying?
So if you are banking on the fact that if/when you get to "that level" the konis would be better why handicap yourself along the way and have to upgrade later? Why not get the right stuff the first time?
11-30-2006 | 02:42 PM
#33
www.TeamWTF.org
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Originally Posted by GeorgeH
To CosmosMPower, I'd say don't believe the BS line that the D-Specs are "OK" for local use but you'll be leaving time on the course unless you buy Konis. IF the Konis are faster it might be 0.1 or 0.2 seconds over a 60 second course. AND the only way you'll realize that difference, assuming it even exists, is if you set them to a fairly high level of damping. On an autocross course, I'd put my D-Specs at full-stiff up against a set of Koni yellows at half-stiff any day. And on the street the opposite holds true - I'd much rather drive my car on Tokicos at half-stiff than Konies at 3/4 or full stiff on a daily basis - both from a performance and and comfort standpoint.
11-30-2006 | 03:09 PM
#34
Thread Starter
1935 lbs. FTW!
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From: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
It is still only $50 to YOU unless you are going to charge the other 3 people more. Seems like a waste of time to me for $50.00. As I recall it took the other guy some time to get four people together.
As I recall it took the other guy some time to get four people together. Plus i'm pretty much only a year out of college and just started a job a few months ago and trying to buy a townhouse so every penny counts especially when it comes to a hobby.Additionally, my friend wants to save 50 bucks and we could save 100 between the two of us. Also I have till next spring to get 4 people together so i'm in no rush. Are you part owner of DPE or something?
11-30-2006 | 04:32 PM
#35
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
50 bucks is still 50 bucks, some of us don't have fancy sponsers like you Plus i'm pretty much only a year out of college and just started a job a few months ago and trying to buy a townhouse so every penny counts especially when it comes to a hobby.
Additionally, my friend wants to save 50 bucks and we could save 100 between the two of us. Also I have till next spring to get 4 people together so i'm in no rush. Are you part owner of DPE or something?
Plus i'm pretty much only a year out of college and just started a job a few months ago and trying to buy a townhouse so every penny counts especially when it comes to a hobby.Additionally, my friend wants to save 50 bucks and we could save 100 between the two of us. Also I have till next spring to get 4 people together so i'm in no rush. Are you part owner of DPE or something?
I have nothing to do with DPE, I did buy a set of bushings from them. They just have the best price out there on the Konis, $100 less than I paid from another place
, and they are a forum sponsor.
11-30-2006 | 04:36 PM
#36
Thread Starter
1935 lbs. FTW!
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
If you don't need them and can wait I can see that.... Just to me if I wanted them I would not want to wait to find others or front all the money to do a group buy.
I have nothing to do with DPE, I did buy a set of bushings from them. They just have the best price out there on the Konis, $100 less than I paid from another place , and they are a forum sponsor.
I have nothing to do with DPE, I did buy a set of bushings from them. They just have the best price out there on the Konis, $100 less than I paid from another place
, and they are a forum sponsor.
11-30-2006 | 05:04 PM
#37
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Right, 550 shipped is a pretty good deal but there's no point in me buying them today since autocross season isn't for another 3-4 months. Also I just bought some wheels and I still need to get tires for them so I'm just saving money and doing research right now. Thanks for the advice though, always great to get the input of a national champ
11-30-2006 | 05:23 PM
#38
Originally Posted by dannobre
If you have done it....you can get that down to under 3 hours. I swap my coilovers out for the stock suspension in the winter and I did it in less than 2 hours on jack stands, in the driveway. The first time it takes longer....to figure out just what you need to remove. The service manual does it the hard way...esp the rear.
11-30-2006 | 06:19 PM
#39
Yes, I realize what shocks do. However, they also control high frequency fluctuations due to changes in road surface as well as low frequency fluctuations due to changes in steering angle, and it's possible for valving to affect steady state grip. I was wondering if Jason was asserting that the Koni valving had some inherent advantage in that regard.
As for the firm vs. fast comment, yes I understand that firmer isn't always faster. Which is why I like to turn mine down on the street. But while autocrossing, firmer makes the car easier to drive fast through the transitions, at least to me. Which, in effect, makes it faster.
And, like I said in other threads, I believe I did make the right choice, at least for me. I just have a hard time with people saying the Konis are way superior to the D-Specs without ever having competed on them. In my experience, the supposed advantage the Konis have just isn't there unless you are in the top 5% of the talent pool, and even then I'm not sure.
As for the firm vs. fast comment, yes I understand that firmer isn't always faster. Which is why I like to turn mine down on the street. But while autocrossing, firmer makes the car easier to drive fast through the transitions, at least to me. Which, in effect, makes it faster.
And, like I said in other threads, I believe I did make the right choice, at least for me. I just have a hard time with people saying the Konis are way superior to the D-Specs without ever having competed on them. In my experience, the supposed advantage the Konis have just isn't there unless you are in the top 5% of the talent pool, and even then I'm not sure.
11-30-2006 | 06:59 PM
#40
Originally Posted by altiain
I'm sure after doing a couple of '8s I could shorten that time down, but also consider that the estimate above includes moving the stock springs from one set of shocks to another. I can remember swapping back and forth between a fully assembled set of stock shocks and springs and a fully assembled set of coilovers on my Miata, and not having to swap the springs from one setup to another cuts down the installation time substantially.
I helped DMP put his in...and it is a lot longer to re-re the springs
11-30-2006 | 08:09 PM
#41
Thread Starter
1935 lbs. FTW!
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
WHAT no year round racing in TX.... You need to move.
11-30-2006 | 08:38 PM
#43
Originally Posted by RX3+5
So.. Who was running what shocks in BS (in Topeka) for the trophies?
Vince
Vince
All on konis... Far as I know all single adjustable stock off the shelf sports except for John V who has the first set ever built by koni and they are doubles.
11-30-2006 | 08:52 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
All on konis... Far as I know all single adjustable stock off the shelf sports except for John V who has the first set ever built by koni and they are doubles.
Of course, we've already established that DA's don't work for many of us, who would just have twice as many settings to screw up...I'm just sticking on the SA's and crankin' them puppies down
11-30-2006 | 08:52 PM
#45
Originally Posted by GeorgeH
I just have a hard time with people saying the Konis are way superior to the D-Specs without ever having competed on them. In my experience, the supposed advantage the Konis have just isn't there unless you are in the top 5% of the talent pool, and even then I'm not sure.
You're not sure because you don't know what the f-ck you're talking about. You only know you're limited experience, which relative to the "people" you're referring to is marginal at best. The last set of shocks I owned of that style internal design, which I owned numerous sets prior to, was over 11 years ago. These were replaced with my first set of custom Koni double adjustables, which I have since owned numerous sets of and have assisted numerous others with in a variety of applications. My experience with either style is way beyond your own.
Unlike yourself, I am not only very sure, I know it to be true. You're not even close to being in the top 5%, so STFU and start taking notes like a good lil' n00b.
You're first lesson needs to be about understanding that there's a lot more to shocks then simply being stiffer or softer. That's like saying the universe is a big place and knowing this qualifies you to lecture and advise people on it it 
11-30-2006 | 08:54 PM
#46
Originally Posted by mwood
How much of the SA vs. DA bias is because only the singles were readily available when you and Joe set up your cars?
Of course, we've already established that DA's don't work for many of us, who would just have twice as many settings to screw up...I'm just sticking on the SA's and crankin' them puppies down
Of course, we've already established that DA's don't work for many of us, who would just have twice as many settings to screw up...I'm just sticking on the SA's and crankin' them puppies down
11-30-2006 | 09:02 PM
#47
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1935 lbs. FTW!
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From: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
You're not sure because you don't know what the f-ck you're talking about. You only know you're limited experience, which relative to the "people" you're referring to is marginal at best. The last set of shocks I owned of that style internal design, which I owned numerous sets prior to, was over 11 years ago. These were replaced with my first set of custom Koni double adjustables, which I have since owned numerous sets of and have assisted numerous others with in a variety of applications. My experience with either style is way beyond your own.
Unlike yourself, I am not only very sure, I know it to be true. You're not even close to being in the top 5%, so STFU and start taking notes like a good lil' n00b. You're first lesson needs to be about understanding that there's a lot more to shocks then simply being stiffer or softer. That's like saying the universe is a big place and knowing this qualifies you to lecture and advise people on it it
Unlike yourself, I am not only very sure, I know it to be true. You're not even close to being in the top 5%, so STFU and start taking notes like a good lil' n00b.
You're first lesson needs to be about understanding that there's a lot more to shocks then simply being stiffer or softer. That's like saying the universe is a big place and knowing this qualifies you to lecture and advise people on it it
11-30-2006 | 10:18 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Whoa, i'm feeling the anger in this thread but it does sound like you have a lot of real world actual experience which is what i'm looking for.
Team Baghead isn't shy in expressing his beliefs...the good thing is, his beliefs are based on empirical testing and real data. Of course, that doesn't mean that someone can't do it differently and go fast(er)
11-30-2006 | 10:24 PM
#50
I talk to cones
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Madison,AL
The reason you don't see more people running customs in this class is that Koni got it pretty close to right on for autox when they spec'ed out the valving on the singles. So there's much less reason to go out and pay the money for custom valving and, oh by the way, convert to double while your at it.
Coming from a miata this was refreshing. Revalving OTS koni singles is just about mandatory for that car.
Coming from a miata this was refreshing. Revalving OTS koni singles is just about mandatory for that car.