This is quite funny....

Kinda like how some guys prefer redheads..., some brunettes.......and others blondes

They all get the job done....with subtle differences.

Personally I like ( oh ****...better not say that the wife is a ******)

Everyone has a driving style that dictates, and is dictated by there setup. What works for someone doesn't necessarily work at all for others.

We all know this...that's why the advise given in threads like this need to be taken with a grain of salt. The information is great...but it may of may not work with the type of driver that you are................

 

True enough that the "best" set up, within a realistic bandwidth, is a matter of what works best for you. But, for hard parts, it's hard to argue with sound engineering and designs based on effectiveness, not unit cost.

 

agreed

 

Does the MS front bar work well with the konis on street tires? I feel the car has a pretty good balance but sometimes tends to oversteer a bit with trail braking (at least bone stock on the potenzas). I wouldn't mind a tiny bit more understeer to go with the lessened body roll and better transitional response.

Also you can use the factory endlinks with the MS bar right?

 

Why in God's name would you want to retain the stock under-damped handling on the street? That's just madness. altiain's Konis sure seem to cure the North Texas Porpoising Concrete Slab Syndrome (NTPCSS) yet still provide less harshness over sharp bumps than the stock shocks.

 

I drove a bunch of runs in GeorgeH's car with Tokikos and Joe Goeke's car with Konis back to back on the same Nationals-style course, and I didn't feel a whole lot of difference between them. GeorgeH's car had more steady state push, but I attribute that to his sway bar choice rather than shocks.

I'm sure the Konis and Tokikos behave slightly differently due to their different internal construction, but whatever difference there is between wasn't obvious enough for me to pick up on in a back-to-back comparison. Were I to get an RX-8, I wouldn't rule out the Tokikos.

 

You could try it 15% stiffer than stock.....does it only oversteer with trail braking?? or at turn in without??

stock endlinks work.

 

Mostly with trail braking, a little bit on corner entry but I attribute that mostly to me going in too hot. The rear feels a little squirley at the end of a long straight into a tight 90+ degree corner as I'm slowing down and begin the turn. I heard that's pretty normal for a bone stock RX8 and that's mostly due to the stock shocks in the rear, not sure if a front sway bar would help that as well.

 

With stiffer springs...it won't transfer the weight forward so fast.....

The sways probably won't make as much difference. I really noticed a big difference when I went to the coilovers in weight transfer changes . I found one thing that worked also was to brake a little earlier...and release slower....my lap times actually went down, when I was smoother off the brakes. The brakes are so good, that they allow you to be really agressive braking deep....but forget to be smooth enough on the release.

 

Thanks, I think part of my problem was lifting off the gas or brakes too abruptly before starting the turn. I probably won't get stiffer springs just Konis for now since I can't afford a full coilover at the moment and don't want a cheap tein spring with the konis.

 

Stiffer springs don't reduce weight transfer, they provide the same weight transfer with less body roll (or pitch) which increases responsiveness. This reduces the suspensions ability to do it's job as any bump will be reacted against with increased resistance which overloads the tire more quickly. For many cars, decreased roll is benefitial since it keeps the tires planted more squarely. The RX8 isn't one of those as it's suspension has good camber gain with compression. What a stock RX-8 does have is poor quality shocks that don't adequately damp it's springs, particularly with good quality tires installed. So what you're calling weight transfer, is really excess roll or dive, due to an underdamped suspension. Then if you're unlucky and hit a stop, you get a bunch of weight transfer quickly and the affected tire overloads. So the best way to increase the performance of the stock car is ungrade the shocks, not the springs.

Stiffer sways increase weight transfer, they don't reduce it. So why do we use them? Several reasons. For street cars it's a way to increase the roll stiffness without making the car harsh over bumps. From a performance standpoint, sways allow us to increase roll responsiveness over what would normally be possible in a production vehicle due to bushing compliance and body flex. Finally, sways are the easiest way to change front/rear balance of the car. Again though there should be reason why you want to hurt weight transfer and hence the ability of the suspension to stay planted in a corner by installing a stiffer bar.

The only way to decrease weight transfer is to lower the car. Once you lower a car, stiffer springs are then required to keep the suspension within it's reduced range of motion. Then firmer shocks are required to damp to the springs.

 

Poor choice of words....thanks for the clarification!

 

So what you're saying is that you should just get better shocks and call it a day for this car. I was thinking about getting some slightly stiffer spring rate springs to go with the konis but I see that's not necessary or necessarily beneficial. I do know that the factory spring rates are pretty darn low compared to some other cars out there.

 

If you would read my post carefully, you'd see that I point out that with the Tokicos, you can choose whatever level damping you want on the street. I agree with you - I dislike the underdamped feel of the stock shocks and the D-Specs at about 40% gives damn near perfect (for me) handling on the street. However, some people do like the stock feel, and you can get that too with the D-Specs.

Whatever your preference is on the street, when you get to the track it's just a matter of minutes to get transitional response the stock shocks can only dream of - as I've said earlier, more-or-less on par with Koni yellows. Is more, or less? As PedalFaster (and I) said, running them back-to-back (3 runs each) yeilded no obvious winner, so they are obviously close.

 

Unless you're willing to lower the car significantly, yes stay stock. Going to stiffer springs and retaining stock ride height will not help. Once you lower the car, you need stiffer springs to keep it off the stops.

 

Right, i'm not willing to go more than an inch on both ends right now so I think I will just stay stock. I was under the impression that with minimal lowering there would still be handling advantages just from the stiffer spring rates that would further help transitioning/weight transfer side to side as well as helping eliminate drive under braking. There aren't too many springs that are more than 25% stiffer that offer less a 1.5" drop so I guess it's a moot point anyways.

 

While you mention increasing roll stiffness as a reason to use a sway bar, in the limited application of autocrossing in a Stock class, that increase from the front bar (which is the only one we can change) that's so important. Instead it's a side effect of the increased roll stiffness that's the big benefit...less ugly camber gain on the outside front tire. By reducing the amount of roll, the shift towards positive camber on that tire is reduced while turning which allows the tire to generate more grip. This is really noticeable on cars with struts up front (such as an E36 M3) and the total effect counters the conventional wisdom that a stiffer front bar will always promote understeer.

But the RX-8 doesn't really get that benefit from a stiffer front bar. Increased responsiveness during transitions and being able to put power down more cleanly are still benefits to be had from a stiffer front bar, but it doesn't take very much added stiffness for increased understeer to start outweighing those benefits.

 

I was really discussing handling in more general terms since they were talking spring swaps. I agree with every thing you say for a stock class RX8.

For a good streetable handling package that isn't constrained by these rules, however, I would go with koni's on stock springs and a set (front and rear) of RB sways. That would significantly improve roll response by reducing the overall damping ratio of the suspension with the konis installed allowing them to take a set quicker. It would preserve stock ride height, which is plenty low enough for down here in the sticks and still ride well on those northern interstates with their potholes.

 

I hope you guys will understand and not get your feelings hurt if some of us so do not put much weight into the shock evaluation skills of the guys that were 10th and 15th some 3+ seconds off the pace at natls.

There are to many different things going on with the two cars, alignment settings, tire life, driver skill etc to compare just the shocks.

 

Of course not. But, if appreciating the difference (assuming there is one) between the Konis and Tokicos requires excpetional driving skills, then this just reinforces my opinion that for the majority of stock class autocrossers out there the Tokicos make more sense.

FYI, Tom Kotzian drove my car and said it transitioned just fine - like Stephen and I, he didn't pick up on any glaring differences between his car (which has Konis) and mine that wasn't attributable to my setup.

Yes, you'd need exactly the same setup (or perhaps more accurately, setups that work best for each shock), and careful testing by a consistent driver, to asses the true performance differential between these two choices. But, they are close enough that without such testing, you, I, or Baghead simply can't say with any degree of certainty the difference in performance.

At least I've driven both.

 

Yes you have me there you have driven both cars, I am sure slowly, but you have driven both. As far as a Kotzian comparison, I would guess he had only a handful of RX8 events under his belt when he drove your car and yet again you are also trying to compare two cars that have more differences than just the shocks, that does not help to support your argument.

I don't need to test a 30lb wheel to know it is not going to make my car faster. Some things can be determined based just off of design and engineering.

If all this debate helps you to get over your buyers remorse by all means keep trying to convince everyone you made the right choice.

 

Most of what you perceive as dive under braking is really the rear end heaving up due to inadequate low speed rebound in the stock rear shocks. Here's my car under full braking at nat's going into the 180. No real dive to be seen:

 

Nope, but as George said, you're telling people who are probably less experienced than we are that the Konis are the clear-cut choice. If George, Tom, and I all couldn't tell the difference in back-to-back runs, then they wouldn't appear to be that clear-cut a choice after all for the majority of people.

For context for other people on the thread, I'm a multiple time Nationals / National Tour trophier who's been doing this for years, so while I'm no national champion, it's not like I can't tell the front end of the car from the back either.

Edit: There's not really much point in continuing this debate. The facts are all on the table -- it's just a question of who you believe. On one hand, the current BS national champion says that the Konis are superior to the Tokikos, but can't quantify why and has never driven a RX-8 on Tokikos. On the other hand, two slower national-level guys drove near-identical RX-8s on Konis and Tokikos back-to-back, and couldn't tell a difference attributable to shocks. That's all there is -- pick whose opinion you value more. It doesn't look like anyone has anything further to add except for insults.

 

There are also all the other classes and national championships won on konis and none on tokico. I wonder if you can find a stock class championship winning car on Tokicos in the last 5 years.

 

I'll bite.

Why would you want to adjust compression and rebound simultaneouly? Optimum compression damping is dictated by unsprung mass and the driving surface. Rebound affects the sprung mass and controls weight transfer of the chassis. So by controlling both with one **** you're assured of arriving at some compromise that isn't optimal. Soloist typically run cars with stock or lower unsprung masses so high compression damping isn't really needed or desireable since it reduces traction via excess tire loading.