Pressing DSC vs holding it 7 seconds
#26
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I've never seen this happen with my European RX8, I went to Nurburgring on Sunday and I partially turned off the dsc and ran a 1/4 tank of gas and I had no issues the car performed like it always does. I ran Hockenheimring last year and I run it with holding the button down all the way and no problems then either.
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I believe the ring will not cause the problem I was describing due to most of the corners being high speed sweepers. As for the run on Hockenheim you had the DSC "fully" off there and my belief is that the problem will not happen when the DSC is "fully" off.
The issue has happened to me 3 times so far (in 2 years of track racing) so it is not extremely common. I will from now on always drive with the DSC "fully" off and see if the problem appears again. If it is a fuel pump or something else that is braking down, then it should reappear relatively soon. Especially considering if it is broken, it will not get better on its own but rather worse.
#27
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The ring is a different kind of track than any other in the world. I have not had the pleasure to drive it for real yet, but i have a few laps in Forza II ![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I believe the ring will not cause the problem I was describing due to most of the corners being high speed sweepers. As for the run on Hockenheim you had the DSC "fully" off there and my belief is that the problem will not happen when the DSC is "fully" off.
The issue has happened to me 3 times so far (in 2 years of track racing) so it is not extremely common. I will from now on always drive with the DSC "fully" off and see if the problem appears again. If it is a fuel pump or something else that is braking down, then it should reappear relatively soon. Especially considering if it is broken, it will not get better on its own but rather worse.
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I believe the ring will not cause the problem I was describing due to most of the corners being high speed sweepers. As for the run on Hockenheim you had the DSC "fully" off there and my belief is that the problem will not happen when the DSC is "fully" off.
The issue has happened to me 3 times so far (in 2 years of track racing) so it is not extremely common. I will from now on always drive with the DSC "fully" off and see if the problem appears again. If it is a fuel pump or something else that is braking down, then it should reappear relatively soon. Especially considering if it is broken, it will not get better on its own but rather worse.
But I have seen the problem with the fuel starvation like they are talking about happen to a RX8 on L'Anneau du Rhin. I've ran that same course with the dsc partially and completely off with no problems. But in a month or so I'll try Hockenheim again and partially turn it off and see what happens.
#28
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The Nurburgring does have quite a few turns where you have to be on the brakes pretty hard going into them. I've never attempted to turn the DSC completely off on this course since I've hit 235kmh going down one of the back stretches right before a right turn that is abut 90 degrees.
But I have seen the problem with the fuel starvation like they are talking about happen to a RX8 on L'Anneau du Rhin. I've ran that same course with the dsc partially and completely off with no problems. But in a month or so I'll try Hockenheim again and partially turn it off and see what happens.
But I have seen the problem with the fuel starvation like they are talking about happen to a RX8 on L'Anneau du Rhin. I've ran that same course with the dsc partially and completely off with no problems. But in a month or so I'll try Hockenheim again and partially turn it off and see what happens.
Hopefully you wont run into any problems at all on Hockenheim. If you run into any issues, my issues were solved by disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it. I got it on the second to last lap on one 20 minute stint. I limped out and since it was the out-lap I figured I could let the car rest. 20 minutes later I drove out again hoping the car was OK. It was not, it was still limping on me. I drove out in the pits, disconnected the battery. Turned the starter (probably not needed but I wanted to put a load on the battery which wasn't there to make certain all capacitors etc got drained). Reconnected the battery and all issues were gone instantly.
#29
The "skidding car" icon staying there indicates DSC/TC error. That's clearly stated in the manual from what I can recall. And when you hold the button it goes fully off/into diagnostic/error mode which is why the icon comes, that's also explained in some japanese movies if I recall correctly. Which is why you have to "restart" the car to get it off?!
It's also explained in some Mazda videos I believe that when you turn off DSC, it still keeps some of the safety features when braking hard. But it does sound far off that it would limit the speed, I think the fuel pump sounds more reasonable too.
It's also explained in some Mazda videos I believe that when you turn off DSC, it still keeps some of the safety features when braking hard. But it does sound far off that it would limit the speed, I think the fuel pump sounds more reasonable too.
#30
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The "skidding car" icon staying there indicates DSC/TC error. That's clearly stated in the manual from what I can recall. And when you hold the button it goes fully off/into diagnostic/error mode which is why the icon comes, that's also explained in some japanese movies if I recall correctly. Which is why you have to "restart" the car to get it off?!
However if it is the fuel pump I cannot understand how disconnecting and reconnecting the battery could solve the problem. Oh well, there will be a lot more trackdays so if I ever find the problem, I will post and tell you all. Even if it is the fuel pump. Then I will wear a dunce cap for the day too, if it is the fuel pump that is.
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#33
I agree here too, partly. I agree that if it is software that puts the car in limp mode as a "safety feature" then the idiot who designed and implemented it should have a bullet in the head.
However if it is the fuel pump I cannot understand how disconnecting and reconnecting the battery could solve the problem. Oh well, there will be a lot more trackdays so if I ever find the problem, I will post and tell you all. Even if it is the fuel pump. Then I will wear a dunce cap for the day too, if it is the fuel pump that is.![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
However if it is the fuel pump I cannot understand how disconnecting and reconnecting the battery could solve the problem. Oh well, there will be a lot more trackdays so if I ever find the problem, I will post and tell you all. Even if it is the fuel pump. Then I will wear a dunce cap for the day too, if it is the fuel pump that is.
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
My reason for thinking it could be the fuel pump is because the above sounds too silly, that's just my thought. The second thing is that when this happens, your fuel is cut for a little period, so in the situation, fuel delivery is already interfered with, if your fuel pump isn't working 100%, that could perhaps limp the delivery and create some sort of "gap" perhaps?
Did you try just parking the car and let it idle for a while and trying again? Or just turn it on and off and try again?
Let it be noted that I'm not a mechanic, I couldn't even change my sidemarkers without destroying something :P So I'm just doing a bit of "debugging" to support your search for an answer
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#34
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Doing donuts in the snow at 5 mph and actually driving the car to its limits in a controlled environment are two different things. I've spent enough time doing the latter to know that holding the button completely disables DSC and traction control, while just pushing the button leaves some of the electronic nannies waiting in the wings to step in if you exceed the car's limits.
Last edited by altiain; 07-23-2008 at 09:04 AM.
#35
But if you find yourself doing 60mph in a slight curve and panic brake because something is in your path and start skidding, then the DSC/TC will interfere. What it won't do is interfere if you drive sideways through a corner within limits pumping the accelerator pedal.
But again, that's my understanding. I don't have the hands-on knowledge.
#36
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Doing donuts in the snow at 5 mph and actually driving the car to its limits in a controlled environment are two different things. I've spent enough time doing the latter to know that holding the button completely disables DSC and traction control, while just pushing the button leaves some of the electronic nannies waiting in the wings to step in if you exceed the car's limits.
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#37
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Everyone's help is very appreciated. As I stated before, I want a discussion to get other peoples viewpoints and ideas. This helps me to deduct what it is, and if it is the fuel pump, so be it. Just to buy a new one.
#38
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+1 for long press=TC/DSC disabled. I can't imagine a car's ECU being programmed to have a prolonged power restriction setting well after you've recovered a slide. In fact, it has been my experience on track that the opposite applies. When TC kicks in, it does it in a subtle manner (very annoying though) that allows you to go back to full throttle almost instantly.
Edit: Just as I finish this post I recalled having a similar issue at a racing school in a brand new C6. So we go out for a session and the car is pretty much undrivable because the TC is kicking in everywhere on the track under benign situations. I had to get a different car. The instructor is thinking I'm doing something funky like overdriving the thing and I'm thinking the tires are gone because I'm goin' fast and tearing up the goodyears. The tires are chunking and another guy is having similar problems too. So I get into a different car run a few laps and come back to pit noting to the instructor that the problem is gone. So later on, I ask one of the mechanics about the problem and he says it's probably the tire pressure monitor that the ECU is responding to. I'm pretty sure they did a tire change on that car. I don't know if this is useful at all but oh well...
Edit: Just as I finish this post I recalled having a similar issue at a racing school in a brand new C6. So we go out for a session and the car is pretty much undrivable because the TC is kicking in everywhere on the track under benign situations. I had to get a different car. The instructor is thinking I'm doing something funky like overdriving the thing and I'm thinking the tires are gone because I'm goin' fast and tearing up the goodyears. The tires are chunking and another guy is having similar problems too. So I get into a different car run a few laps and come back to pit noting to the instructor that the problem is gone. So later on, I ask one of the mechanics about the problem and he says it's probably the tire pressure monitor that the ECU is responding to. I'm pretty sure they did a tire change on that car. I don't know if this is useful at all but oh well...
Last edited by Senna; 07-23-2008 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Just remembered..
#39
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+1 for long press=TC/DSC disabled. I can't imagine a car's ECU being programmed to have a prolonged power restriction setting well after you've recovered a slide. In fact, it has been my experience on track that the opposite applies. When TC kicks in, it does it in a subtle manner (very annoying though) that allows you to go back to full throttle almost instantly.
Edit: Just as I finish this post I recalled having a similar issue at a racing school in a brand new C6. So we go out for a session and the car is pretty much undrivable because the TC is kicking in everywhere on the track under benign situations. I had to get a different car. The instructor is thinking I'm doing something funky like overdriving the thing and I'm thinking the tires are gone because I'm goin' fast and tearing up the goodyears. The tires are chunking and another guy is having similar problems too. So I get into a different car run a few laps and come back to pit noting to the instructor that the problem is gone. So later on, I ask one of the mechanics about the problem and he says it's probably the tire pressure monitor that the ECU is responding to. I'm pretty sure they did a tire change on that car. I don't know if this is useful at all but oh well...
Edit: Just as I finish this post I recalled having a similar issue at a racing school in a brand new C6. So we go out for a session and the car is pretty much undrivable because the TC is kicking in everywhere on the track under benign situations. I had to get a different car. The instructor is thinking I'm doing something funky like overdriving the thing and I'm thinking the tires are gone because I'm goin' fast and tearing up the goodyears. The tires are chunking and another guy is having similar problems too. So I get into a different car run a few laps and come back to pit noting to the instructor that the problem is gone. So later on, I ask one of the mechanics about the problem and he says it's probably the tire pressure monitor that the ECU is responding to. I'm pretty sure they did a tire change on that car. I don't know if this is useful at all but oh well...
We will just have to wait and see. I am coming around more and more to the fuel pump. Mainly because implementing something like this would be moronic. Secondly, when I was doing my lap I was struck hard mainly on the straight, as if I was set with a speed limiter. This could be explained by the fuel pump being able to deliver enough fuel while I'm balancing the car with the throttle in the twisties but once out on the straight with full acceleration it would require more fuel and thus I would feel like I'm having a speed limiter on me.
The reason why it could work after I had reset the battery? Probably because I idled long enough in the pit lane waiting to be released onto the track again, giving the pump time enough to push fuel forward.
At least that are explanations that would indicate the fuel pump and at the same time explain all the symptoms I have had. The fact that I once got it with a full tank, well swoope had gotten it with a 3/4 so why not? I suppose the petrol does no good just being stored in the tank at the back, it has to reach the engine.
#41
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I think there is good cause to believe that there may be "alternate" logic programming going on in the different markets.
I've done entire track laps with the system entirely engaged and it just did what it was supposed to do - straighten the car out.
Once it was satisfied that this had occurred, it let me alone.
This is actually a quick way to find the limit of grip without actually "finding" it.
I usually just do the single push - it seldom "undoes" anything I'm trying to do.
I've done entire track laps with the system entirely engaged and it just did what it was supposed to do - straighten the car out.
Once it was satisfied that this had occurred, it let me alone.
This is actually a quick way to find the limit of grip without actually "finding" it.
I usually just do the single push - it seldom "undoes" anything I'm trying to do.
#42
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Hehehe, we are jealous of you American guys too so it evens out. For example, we pay more than $100 to fill the RX-8 with gas. And yes, our RX-8s drink just as much as yours ![Wink](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Definitly. Japanese production cars are not permitted above 112 mph, so there is at least that limiter in the Japanese market differentiating it from the rest of the world. If there is one difference then there can surely be more
Me too. Its rare that the problems occur which makes it hard for me to diagnose it because I cannot reproduce it at will. Its not like I get strangled every time the stability program kicks in.
I have however noted consistently faster laptimes with it off so it is very rare I have it on when driving on the track nowadays. I even had it off when it was flooding down rain. I paid for my hubris with a 360 spin when exiting a turn
. Luckily i spun the whole way around and could continue driving before even the yellow flag came up.
![Wink](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
I think there is good cause to believe that there may be "alternate" logic programming going on in the different markets.
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
I've done entire track laps with the system entirely engaged and it just did what it was supposed to do - straighten the car out.
Once it was satisfied that this had occurred, it let me alone.
Once it was satisfied that this had occurred, it let me alone.
I have however noted consistently faster laptimes with it off so it is very rare I have it on when driving on the track nowadays. I even had it off when it was flooding down rain. I paid for my hubris with a 360 spin when exiting a turn
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#43
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I'm not really jealous of the American gas prices I don't mind paying the high prices for all the fun I get to have in the RX8. But anyways I'm going to Hockenheimring today to see if I can get this issue to happen to my RX8, I don't think it will but it gives me an excuse to drive an hour up to the track and find out.
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#44
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I'm not really jealous of the American gas prices I don't mind paying the high prices for all the fun I get to have in the RX8. But anyways I'm going to Hockenheimring today to see if I can get this issue to happen to my RX8, I don't think it will but it gives me an excuse to drive an hour up to the track and find out. ![Lol2](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/lol2.gif)
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#45
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There is no question in my mind that there is a difference between a quick press and a long press, at least on US cars. As was stated earlier, nowhere is this more obvious than when autocrossing on R-compounds. Just the other day, I forgot to turn off the system, of course noticed very early in the run that the system was trying to straighten out my line. Grrr. So, while driving, I reach down and do a quick press (can't hold it down for 7 seconds while in a run).
This eliminates *most* of the interference, but I could still feel the odd brake pulse at one corner or another during heavy rotation. The car was still second guessing my intent.
When I remember the long press, which is most of the time, there is no interference. There clearly is a difference.
As for this not being logical, well, the only logic that should be of interest here is the logic encoded in the software in the car, which none of us have the luxury of reading. It is entirely conceivable that this behavior - looking for the long press - is programmed into the software. And evidence suggests that it is.
This eliminates *most* of the interference, but I could still feel the odd brake pulse at one corner or another during heavy rotation. The car was still second guessing my intent.
When I remember the long press, which is most of the time, there is no interference. There clearly is a difference.
As for this not being logical, well, the only logic that should be of interest here is the logic encoded in the software in the car, which none of us have the luxury of reading. It is entirely conceivable that this behavior - looking for the long press - is programmed into the software. And evidence suggests that it is.
#46
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There is no question in my mind that there is a difference between a quick press and a long press, at least on US cars. As was stated earlier, nowhere is this more obvious than when autocrossing on R-compounds. Just the other day, I forgot to turn off the system, of course noticed very early in the run that the system was trying to straighten out my line. Grrr. So, while driving, I reach down and do a quick press (can't hold it down for 7 seconds while in a run).
This eliminates *most* of the interference, but I could still feel the odd brake pulse at one corner or another during heavy rotation. The car was still second guessing my intent.
When I remember the long press, which is most of the time, there is no interference. There clearly is a difference.
As for this not being logical, well, the only logic that should be of interest here is the logic encoded in the software in the car, which none of us have the luxury of reading. It is entirely conceivable that this behavior - looking for the long press - is programmed into the software. And evidence suggests that it is.
This eliminates *most* of the interference, but I could still feel the odd brake pulse at one corner or another during heavy rotation. The car was still second guessing my intent.
When I remember the long press, which is most of the time, there is no interference. There clearly is a difference.
As for this not being logical, well, the only logic that should be of interest here is the logic encoded in the software in the car, which none of us have the luxury of reading. It is entirely conceivable that this behavior - looking for the long press - is programmed into the software. And evidence suggests that it is.
There might be a difference in models, we can never be certain about that. What we can say with 100% certainty is that on some RX-8s there is a difference between holding or just pressing the DSC.
Then if PBlue wants to believe it or not is entirely up to him. I don't try to tell him how his car work, so why should he tell me how mine works?
![Wink](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
And maybe he is not a good enough driver to notice the difference.... just kidding
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