PerSmitt

The ring is a different kind of track than any other in the world. I have not had the pleasure to drive it for real yet, but i have a few laps in Forza II

I believe the ring will not cause the problem I was describing due to most of the corners being high speed sweepers. As for the run on Hockenheim you had the DSC "fully" off there and my belief is that the problem will not happen when the DSC is "fully" off.

The issue has happened to me 3 times so far (in 2 years of track racing) so it is not extremely common. I will from now on always drive with the DSC "fully" off and see if the problem appears again. If it is a fuel pump or something else that is braking down, then it should reappear relatively soon. Especially considering if it is broken, it will not get better on its own but rather worse.

StuttgartRX8

The Nurburgring does have quite a few turns where you have to be on the brakes pretty hard going into them. I've never attempted to turn the DSC completely off on this course since I've hit 235kmh going down one of the back stretches right before a right turn that is abut 90 degrees.

But I have seen the problem with the fuel starvation like they are talking about happen to a RX8 on L'Anneau du Rhin. I've ran that same course with the dsc partially and completely off with no problems. But in a month or so I'll try Hockenheim again and partially turn it off and see what happens.

PerSmitt

I did not mean any disrespect to the ring in any way. I really look forward to get a chance to drive it for real since I know the simulators are just that. What I meant was that the characteristics of the ring is quite different from a track with a hairpin every 250 meter.

Hopefully you wont run into any problems at all on Hockenheim. If you run into any issues, my issues were solved by disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it. I got it on the second to last lap on one 20 minute stint. I limped out and since it was the out-lap I figured I could let the car rest. 20 minutes later I drove out again hoping the car was OK. It was not, it was still limping on me. I drove out in the pits, disconnected the battery. Turned the starter (probably not needed but I wanted to put a load on the battery which wasn't there to make certain all capacitors etc got drained). Reconnected the battery and all issues were gone instantly.

neXib

The "skidding car" icon staying there indicates DSC/TC error. That's clearly stated in the manual from what I can recall. And when you hold the button it goes fully off/into diagnostic/error mode which is why the icon comes, that's also explained in some japanese movies if I recall correctly. Which is why you have to "restart" the car to get it off?!

It's also explained in some Mazda videos I believe that when you turn off DSC, it still keeps some of the safety features when braking hard. But it does sound far off that it would limit the speed, I think the fuel pump sounds more reasonable too.

PerSmitt

Agreed. I believe the reason why a push doesn't turn the system entirely off being that it is a road going car first and foremost and as such safety comes first.

I agree here too, partly. I agree that if it is software that puts the car in limp mode as a "safety feature" then the idiot who designed and implemented it should have a bullet in the head.

However if it is the fuel pump I cannot understand how disconnecting and reconnecting the battery could solve the problem. Oh well, there will be a lot more trackdays so if I ever find the problem, I will post and tell you all. Even if it is the fuel pump. Then I will wear a dunce cap for the day too, if it is the fuel pump that is.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

do you think it is possible that if you are working the car and dsc system hard that you are aggravating the fuel pump issue???

mine showed up at my last track day.

beers

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

I have gone into complete hooligan mode (burn outs, drifting, donuts, senseless spinning out) in the snow in an empty parking lot with the button on the one touch off condition -shrug-

neXib

It sounds too odd, and from what I can figure it's just that the software takes control if you start to spin (that is, the car detects your angle and the wheel motion to be the start of a skid). It shouldn't limp you after that, that sounds odd.

My reason for thinking it could be the fuel pump is because the above sounds too silly, that's just my thought. The second thing is that when this happens, your fuel is cut for a little period, so in the situation, fuel delivery is already interfered with, if your fuel pump isn't working 100%, that could perhaps limp the delivery and create some sort of "gap" perhaps?

Did you try just parking the car and let it idle for a while and trying again? Or just turn it on and off and try again?

Let it be noted that I'm not a mechanic, I couldn't even change my sidemarkers without destroying something :P So I'm just doing a bit of "debugging" to support your search for an answer

altiain

iTrader: (3)

Doing donuts in the snow at 5 mph and actually driving the car to its limits in a controlled environment are two different things. I've spent enough time doing the latter to know that holding the button completely disables DSC and traction control, while just pushing the button leaves some of the electronic nannies waiting in the wings to step in if you exceed the car's limits.

neXib

As I said, in my opinion, people are misunderstanding this, and/or there's territorial differences. I've never turned off DSC, as I haven't got a "playground", and my car is US version anyway. But my understanding is that with one press, yes you can do all that.

But if you find yourself doing 60mph in a slight curve and panic brake because something is in your path and start skidding, then the DSC/TC will interfere. What it won't do is interfere if you drive sideways through a corner within limits pumping the accelerator pedal.

But again, that's my understanding. I don't have the hands-on knowledge.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

who's doing 5mph in complete hooligan mode... powerslides aren't fun at anything less then 35mph or you look like those pathetic youtube videos where your waiting for the person to get stuck

PerSmitt

It is possible. I will know soon enough. I'm not going to stop track racing, and if the problem comes when I have pressed the button 7 seconds, then it will be the fuel pump. I have 4 track days in august, on a track I know very well (300+ laps) so I should be able to press the car to the limit (of my ability). If it is the fuel pump I should know after 4 days of car punishment.

I shut the car off for 20 minutes first and then tried again and it was still limping. I did however not idle it in the meantime more than a minute or two waiting in the pit lane.

Everyone's help is very appreciated. As I stated before, I want a discussion to get other peoples viewpoints and ideas. This helps me to deduct what it is, and if it is the fuel pump, so be it. Just to buy a new one.

Senna

+1 for long press=TC/DSC disabled. I can't imagine a car's ECU being programmed to have a prolonged power restriction setting well after you've recovered a slide. In fact, it has been my experience on track that the opposite applies. When TC kicks in, it does it in a subtle manner (very annoying though) that allows you to go back to full throttle almost instantly.

Edit: Just as I finish this post I recalled having a similar issue at a racing school in a brand new C6. So we go out for a session and the car is pretty much undrivable because the TC is kicking in everywhere on the track under benign situations. I had to get a different car. The instructor is thinking I'm doing something funky like overdriving the thing and I'm thinking the tires are gone because I'm goin' fast and tearing up the goodyears. The tires are chunking and another guy is having similar problems too. So I get into a different car run a few laps and come back to pit noting to the instructor that the problem is gone. So later on, I ask one of the mechanics about the problem and he says it's probably the tire pressure monitor that the ECU is responding to. I'm pretty sure they did a tire change on that car. I don't know if this is useful at all but oh well...

PerSmitt

Interesting thought about the tires but the European model has no TPMS so it cannot be that in this case. But it is yet another time when you go WTF when you find out the reason for the problem.

We will just have to wait and see. I am coming around more and more to the fuel pump. Mainly because implementing something like this would be moronic. Secondly, when I was doing my lap I was struck hard mainly on the straight, as if I was set with a speed limiter. This could be explained by the fuel pump being able to deliver enough fuel while I'm balancing the car with the throttle in the twisties but once out on the straight with full acceleration it would require more fuel and thus I would feel like I'm having a speed limiter on me.

The reason why it could work after I had reset the battery? Probably because I idled long enough in the pit lane waiting to be released onto the track again, giving the pump time enough to push fuel forward.

At least that are explanations that would indicate the fuel pump and at the same time explain all the symptoms I have had. The fact that I once got it with a full tank, well swoope had gotten it with a 3/4 so why not? I suppose the petrol does no good just being stored in the tank at the back, it has to reach the engine.

Altair 8

i'm so jealous of you European guys

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I think there is good cause to believe that there may be "alternate" logic programming going on in the different markets.

I've done entire track laps with the system entirely engaged and it just did what it was supposed to do - straighten the car out.
Once it was satisfied that this had occurred, it let me alone.

This is actually a quick way to find the limit of grip without actually "finding" it.
I usually just do the single push - it seldom "undoes" anything I'm trying to do.

PerSmitt

Hehehe, we are jealous of you American guys too so it evens out. For example, we pay more than $100 to fill the RX-8 with gas. And yes, our RX-8s drink just as much as yours

Definitly. Japanese production cars are not permitted above 112 mph, so there is at least that limiter in the Japanese market differentiating it from the rest of the world. If there is one difference then there can surely be more

Me too. Its rare that the problems occur which makes it hard for me to diagnose it because I cannot reproduce it at will. Its not like I get strangled every time the stability program kicks in.

I have however noted consistently faster laptimes with it off so it is very rare I have it on when driving on the track nowadays. I even had it off when it was flooding down rain. I paid for my hubris with a 360 spin when exiting a turn . Luckily i spun the whole way around and could continue driving before even the yellow flag came up.

StuttgartRX8

I'm not really jealous of the American gas prices I don't mind paying the high prices for all the fun I get to have in the RX8. But anyways I'm going to Hockenheimring today to see if I can get this issue to happen to my RX8, I don't think it will but it gives me an excuse to drive an hour up to the track and find out.

PerSmitt

Good luck man and have fun. It seems to be a really fun racetrack. I sat glued to the TV last F1 weekend.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

There is no question in my mind that there is a difference between a quick press and a long press, at least on US cars. As was stated earlier, nowhere is this more obvious than when autocrossing on R-compounds. Just the other day, I forgot to turn off the system, of course noticed very early in the run that the system was trying to straighten out my line. Grrr. So, while driving, I reach down and do a quick press (can't hold it down for 7 seconds while in a run).

This eliminates *most* of the interference, but I could still feel the odd brake pulse at one corner or another during heavy rotation. The car was still second guessing my intent.

When I remember the long press, which is most of the time, there is no interference. There clearly is a difference.

As for this not being logical, well, the only logic that should be of interest here is the logic encoded in the software in the car, which none of us have the luxury of reading. It is entirely conceivable that this behavior - looking for the long press - is programmed into the software. And evidence suggests that it is.

PerSmitt

I don't think there is any debate about this anymore. Almost all people posting in this thread has been pointing out that there is a difference between a quick press and holding 7 seconds.

There might be a difference in models, we can never be certain about that. What we can say with 100% certainty is that on some RX-8s there is a difference between holding or just pressing the DSC.

Then if PBlue wants to believe it or not is entirely up to him. I don't try to tell him how his car work, so why should he tell me how mine works?

And maybe he is not a good enough driver to notice the difference.... just kidding