Random Thoughts on RX-8 and Community
#1
Random Thoughts on RX-8 and Community
With National coming up in a few weeks, most of you who frequent the Racing forum are probably working feverishly to prepare the cars. For the rest of aspiring mortals, National remains as the ultimate goal to challenge ourselves. We are about 2/3 way thru the autocross season for non-west coast inhabitants. I started out the year as RWD-and-autocross neophyte, and am progressing thru the learning curve slowly but maturely with a few outside T1-3 trophies at local venues. Therefore, I like to reflect on what I have learned/researched/gathered during the process on aspects concerning competitiveness/weakness and community difference between S2000 and RX-8:
Competitiveness/Weakness:
Throughout the year, all seasoned racers who have driven RX-8 point out to the following issues:
1)Steering is too fast
2)Body roll is excessive
3)Shocks are too soft
Issue #1&2 can be addressed by having better driver control and adapting aftermarket front sway bar respectively. However, issue #3 is challenging without putting up substantial investment in either “off-the-shelf” Koni SA or “arm-and-leg” units like Moton, Penske, and Ohlin. Reading thru
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=302156
and learning that Colin won T1 in AS at Peru on stock shocks, one can infer that S2000 is more competent than RX-8 in stock forms. That conclusion is rightfully so since SCCA moves S2K into AS this year with RX-8 toiling in BS. To make National dream come true, I plan on getting a lot of seat-time, taking a lot of Evo School, and reading a lot of suspension tuning books on getting the most out of stock shocks thru alignment tuning before breaking the piggy bank for a set of Koni 2812, custom-valved to stock springs.
Community Support:
Check out
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173528
RX-8 community as a whole, lacks the commitment and extent of resources available to S2K racers. While we are fairly young and still in the infancy stage, we can do more so RX-8 racers have a guiding map to overcome nervousness/fear concerning autox. I will gladly put together a FAQ on autox with the help of experienced racers like you.
My $.02.
Competitiveness/Weakness:
Throughout the year, all seasoned racers who have driven RX-8 point out to the following issues:
1)Steering is too fast
2)Body roll is excessive
3)Shocks are too soft
Issue #1&2 can be addressed by having better driver control and adapting aftermarket front sway bar respectively. However, issue #3 is challenging without putting up substantial investment in either “off-the-shelf” Koni SA or “arm-and-leg” units like Moton, Penske, and Ohlin. Reading thru
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=302156
and learning that Colin won T1 in AS at Peru on stock shocks, one can infer that S2000 is more competent than RX-8 in stock forms. That conclusion is rightfully so since SCCA moves S2K into AS this year with RX-8 toiling in BS. To make National dream come true, I plan on getting a lot of seat-time, taking a lot of Evo School, and reading a lot of suspension tuning books on getting the most out of stock shocks thru alignment tuning before breaking the piggy bank for a set of Koni 2812, custom-valved to stock springs.
Community Support:
Check out
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173528
RX-8 community as a whole, lacks the commitment and extent of resources available to S2K racers. While we are fairly young and still in the infancy stage, we can do more so RX-8 racers have a guiding map to overcome nervousness/fear concerning autox. I will gladly put together a FAQ on autox with the help of experienced racers like you.
My $.02.
#4
Originally Posted by CRX Millennium
Throughout the year, all seasoned racers who have driven RX-8 point out to the following issues:
1)Steering is too fast
My $.02.
1)Steering is too fast
My $.02.
#8
Fwiw, Koni 2812's for a Stock class RX-8 will have your ride height sitting much higher and with less camber than the hydraulic double-tube Konis due to the high gas pressure (300+ psig). Further, their superior low speed damping is completely negated by all the rubber suspension bushing compliance.
If I believed them to be better for the application I'd be on them, that's just not the case so I'd advise you to not pay 2x+ for nothing (and Koni will tell you the same thing)
If I believed them to be better for the application I'd be on them, that's just not the case so I'd advise you to not pay 2x+ for nothing (and Koni will tell you the same thing)
#9
Team RX8,
I am by no means an experienced autocrosser. Therefore, my post was just to simply convey what I have picked up during the short amount of time I have campaigned running the car. Sorry if the post came off as being offensive or negative in tone. Thanks for the feedback on Koni 2812. The quest for the best performance/budget shocks continues on then.
ULLOSE,
The steering being too fast issue can be viewed as a mixed blessing. Since I am still relatively new, I tend to overshoot the steering angles as I come up to turns out on the course. The most likely reason is that I am not smooth enough, since my steering is a bit frantic inside the cockpit. The comment was echoed by a number of seasoned racers who drove RX-8.
I am by no means an experienced autocrosser. Therefore, my post was just to simply convey what I have picked up during the short amount of time I have campaigned running the car. Sorry if the post came off as being offensive or negative in tone. Thanks for the feedback on Koni 2812. The quest for the best performance/budget shocks continues on then.
ULLOSE,
The steering being too fast issue can be viewed as a mixed blessing. Since I am still relatively new, I tend to overshoot the steering angles as I come up to turns out on the course. The most likely reason is that I am not smooth enough, since my steering is a bit frantic inside the cockpit. The comment was echoed by a number of seasoned racers who drove RX-8.
#10
best budget = standard Koni single adjustable shocks
best Stock performance = the above degassed and converted to double adjustable
I think you and those seasoned racers are confusing setup issues for steering issues
best Stock performance = the above degassed and converted to double adjustable
I think you and those seasoned racers are confusing setup issues for steering issues
#11
Originally Posted by CRX Millennium
ULLOSE,
The steering being too fast issue can be viewed as a mixed blessing. Since I am still relatively new, I tend to overshoot the steering angles as I come up to turns out on the course. The most likely reason is that I am not smooth enough, since my steering is a bit frantic inside the cockpit. The comment was echoed by a number of seasoned racers who drove RX-8.
The steering being too fast issue can be viewed as a mixed blessing. Since I am still relatively new, I tend to overshoot the steering angles as I come up to turns out on the course. The most likely reason is that I am not smooth enough, since my steering is a bit frantic inside the cockpit. The comment was echoed by a number of seasoned racers who drove RX-8.
#12
Originally Posted by CRX Millennium
The steering being too fast issue can be viewed as a mixed blessing. Since I am still relatively new, I tend to overshoot the steering angles as I come up to turns out on the course. The most likely reason is that I am not smooth enough, since my steering is a bit frantic inside the cockpit. The comment was echoed by a number of seasoned racers who drove RX-8.
It's not a problem with the car, it's a problem with the driver. More seat time and instruction will train you to slow your hands down and start attacking the back.
JV
#14
Well if you think the steering is too fast...........
It's a blessing on HDPE tracks. The car is very forgiving for those who do not know how to control.
For those that do it's great as you be much more aggressive and out do the competitiors as you can brake later.
It also comes in handy when those in front of you change there lines. You can readjust for the attack to pass on the straights.
Also when they spin out in front of you or over a hillcrest as on some track the steering gives the the flexability to move out of the way.
God Bless Mazda. There steering saves lives..
It's a blessing on HDPE tracks. The car is very forgiving for those who do not know how to control.
For those that do it's great as you be much more aggressive and out do the competitiors as you can brake later.
It also comes in handy when those in front of you change there lines. You can readjust for the attack to pass on the straights.
Also when they spin out in front of you or over a hillcrest as on some track the steering gives the the flexability to move out of the way.
God Bless Mazda. There steering saves lives..
#15
Support
I wish there was more support/enthusiasim. Been trying to get the guys to track their cars.
Well at least three of them will do an Auto X on 7/23 at Calf. Speedway.
Most members here in Calf. are very young.
Gee, if they could only make it to the track once with an instructor..........
Well at least three of them will do an Auto X on 7/23 at Calf. Speedway.
Most members here in Calf. are very young.
Gee, if they could only make it to the track once with an instructor..........
#16
Originally Posted by Razz1
Well at least three of them will do an Auto X on 7/23 at Calf. Speedway.
......
......
To keep up to date with LA events: www.solo2.com
I was shocked to only see two RX8's at the last Cal Club event.
There is an event in San Diego on the 16th-17th of July. Sat being a practice and Sun a regular event. We will be there on Sun.
http://www.sdr-scca.com/solo2/schedule/
#17
I'm thinking of putting together an RX-8 autocross FAQ. Keep in mind that I have yet to actually autocross the 8, so it's as much for my benefit to find out what people are doing and what works. My initial impressions from driving the car in the mountains is that the shocks are not up to the task, but I'm not sure if I can afford to put Koni Sports on the car before September.
If you think the steering is fast--you should try driving my Miata. The RX-8 turns in like a Buick compared to that car. Swaybar, alignment and shocks will help that issue.
So who is willing to share their setup advice? I have 4 real questions:
1. What are the "ideal" alignment settings.
2. What are the best tires and sizes (and pressures)
3. Which swaybar to put on.
4. Bonus question: How does one set up the Koni Sports (since they are not adjustable in the rear once installed)
If you think the steering is fast--you should try driving my Miata. The RX-8 turns in like a Buick compared to that car. Swaybar, alignment and shocks will help that issue.
So who is willing to share their setup advice? I have 4 real questions:
1. What are the "ideal" alignment settings.
2. What are the best tires and sizes (and pressures)
3. Which swaybar to put on.
4. Bonus question: How does one set up the Koni Sports (since they are not adjustable in the rear once installed)
#18
1. Max possble negative front camber. Set rear to match or maybe a half degree less negative than the fronts. Zero front and rear toe (although that's more of a driver preference thing).
2. If you're running b-stock, you have to run 18's, so the best size is the widest tire you can get on the wheel. I think this is a 275 35. The autox tire of choice is Kuhmo V710's.
3. Sways: debatable. Either the stock sway, MS sway, or RB sway (listed in order of increasing stiffness). RB sway makes the car transition better but punishes too-hot corner entry with most understeer than the stock bar.
4. Rear shocks: If you can live with a harsh street ride, go full stiff.
2. If you're running b-stock, you have to run 18's, so the best size is the widest tire you can get on the wheel. I think this is a 275 35. The autox tire of choice is Kuhmo V710's.
3. Sways: debatable. Either the stock sway, MS sway, or RB sway (listed in order of increasing stiffness). RB sway makes the car transition better but punishes too-hot corner entry with most understeer than the stock bar.
4. Rear shocks: If you can live with a harsh street ride, go full stiff.
#19
Originally Posted by MazdaRich
I'm thinking of putting together an RX-8 autocross FAQ.
Be prepared that you are likely to find a dozen different opinions on setup. There was some sorting out of setup last year, but the stakes have gotten higher this year. Last year there were no RX8's at Nationals, this year I'd expect to see good representation, and therefore, better intelligence on setup. Moral of this is, be prepared to be patient in order to wade through the feedback, and look in many places to consolidate your information.
Case in point, while 275/35-18's are one of the widest tires that an rx8 driver has fit, Kumho's 18" sizes for V710's are as follows, and I haven't heard of anyone fitting a 285/30-18 yet:
245/35R18 8.0 - 9.524.89.6 on 8.5430/C/A22
285/30R18 9.5 - 10.524.811.1 on 10.0430/C/A24
315/35R18 10.5 - 12.526.412.9 on 12.0430/C/A28
#20
Originally Posted by dknv
Case in point, while 275/35-18's are one of the widest tires that an rx8 driver has fit, Kumho's 18" sizes for V710's are as follows, and I haven't heard of anyone fitting a 285/30-18 yet:
You guys are putting the cart before the horse. Setup is going to depend on driving style, not to mention the fastest folks haven't determined what setup is the fastest for them yet
#21
Originally Posted by dknv
My hats off to you and CRX Millenium for wanting to do this.
Be prepared that you are likely to find a dozen different opinions on setup. There was some sorting out of setup last year, but the stakes have gotten higher this year. Last year there were no RX8's at Nationals, this year I'd expect to see good representation, and therefore, better intelligence on setup. Moral of this is, be prepared to be patient in order to wade through the feedback, and look in many places to consolidate your information.
Be prepared that you are likely to find a dozen different opinions on setup. There was some sorting out of setup last year, but the stakes have gotten higher this year. Last year there were no RX8's at Nationals, this year I'd expect to see good representation, and therefore, better intelligence on setup. Moral of this is, be prepared to be patient in order to wade through the feedback, and look in many places to consolidate your information.
That said, if you search through old posts here, there is a lot of good info. Some of it may be out of date (people have moved on from earlier setups) and some of it may have come from people that don't really know what they're talking about (self-description) but it should still give someone a good idea of where people have been and what's been tried.
Case in point, while 275/35-18's are one of the widest tires that an rx8 driver has fit, Kumho's 18" sizes for V710's are as follows, and I haven't heard of anyone fitting a 285/30-18 yet:
245/35R18 8.0 - 9.524.89.6 on 8.5430/C/A22
285/30R18 9.5 - 10.524.811.1 on 10.0430/C/A24
315/35R18 10.5 - 12.526.412.9 on 12.0430/C/A28
245/35R18 8.0 - 9.524.89.6 on 8.5430/C/A22
285/30R18 9.5 - 10.524.811.1 on 10.0430/C/A24
315/35R18 10.5 - 12.526.412.9 on 12.0430/C/A28
#22
As the original thread starter, I'm glad to see that people are receptive to the idea/benefit of FAQ on autocross. As we all know, autocross is probably 99% driver/1% setup on local level, and 80%/20% for National level. The proposed guide will not be the "final say" on how one should set-up the car, rather about how one can approach the topic with some basic building blocks.
With that in mind, I will start collecting information by synthesizing what has been said by experienced RX-8 racers. Hopefully, past winning RX-8 drivers will also be kind enough to share car-setup info. Sounds like MazdaRich is also willing to jointly contribute to the effort. It will always be a work- in-progress, so we might as well start now while the car is still being actively campaigned.
With that in mind, I will start collecting information by synthesizing what has been said by experienced RX-8 racers. Hopefully, past winning RX-8 drivers will also be kind enough to share car-setup info. Sounds like MazdaRich is also willing to jointly contribute to the effort. It will always be a work- in-progress, so we might as well start now while the car is still being actively campaigned.
Last edited by CRX Millennium; 07-11-2005 at 03:22 PM.
#23
Originally Posted by CRX Millennium
As the original thread starter, I'm glad to see that people are receptive to the idea/benefit of FAQ on autocross.
Originally Posted by CRX Millennium
As we all know, autocross is probably 99% driver/1% setup on local level, and 80%/20% for National level. The proposed guide will not be the "final say" on how one should set-up the car, rather about how one can approach the topic with some basic building blocks.
#25
And maybe you can include a section of 'stuff to watch out for:
- Low blood sugar level. Driving is a hard when you can't think.
- Putting your hand in the melted chocolate in your center console with no time before your run to clean it off. Why would I do this? See above.
- Low blood sugar level. Driving is a hard when you can't think.
- Putting your hand in the melted chocolate in your center console with no time before your run to clean it off. Why would I do this? See above.