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Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
(Post 2255097)
>.>
I'd like to know why you'll want to pay big bucks for race pads when you're not racing at all. He said HPDE, not club racing. HPDE = no lap times. That's all I'm saying. Pay for equipment that you use. |
Originally Posted by SouthFL
(Post 2255867)
No laps times doesn't mean drive slow. ;)
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Originally Posted by Spin9k
(Post 2255899)
:iamwithst I regularly check Roundel club racing lap times at the tracks I frequent, and find I'm often only seconds off their pace. Even though Club Racing and HPDE3/4 are not technically the same, the speeds and therefore the braking needed ARE similar. Good HPDE drivers can use and take advantage of the properties of similar pads as club racers, without doubt.
I've never driven on HP+, but after that incident I was convinced a higher temp rating is an absolute for any RX-8 driver that has at least a few HPDE sessions under their belt. |
Originally Posted by Red Devil
(Post 2255967)
Agreed. I was a passenger in a RX-8 at Road America, on HP+ pads, when he cooked them going down the hill into turn 5. Not very pleasant, to say the least.
I've never driven on HP+, but after that incident I was convinced a higher temp rating is an absolute for any RX-8 driver that has at least a few HPDE sessions under their belt. When I push the brakes I want an "we're stopping right now" grinding halt initial friction, followed by a wide platform of fade-free friction I can modulate. With the HP+s the pedal didn't inspire initially and failed to improve over time. In the final cut, they were probably pretty consistent with the OEM pads +/-, but there was that 'feeling' of expecting something like "Wow! That's more like it." Fortunately, I have that now. |
Hmmm...think you're referring to a higher friction coefficient vs. me referring to a higher temp operating range...
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Originally Posted by Red Devil
(Post 2256026)
Hmmm...think you're referring to a higher friction coefficient vs. me referring to a higher temp operating range...
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Don't get me wrong...the HP+ is a good pad if you aren't really aggressive. I have a couple of friends that use them and have no problems.
As for how hard the HPDE crowd pushes....I run times are as fast as race times...except for qualifying...the crowd tends to slow things down a notch! |
I used Carbotechs religiously on my Corvette, and loved them. I bought a set of Panther+ for the RX-8 when we got it, one event and the material came off the backing plate. I sent it back and they just glued it back together rather than replacing them, after it fell apart during the bedding process I threw them away. Luckily the OE pads are perfect for autox. I won some Hawk pads at ProSolo's so I got a set of Blues for track days, they work great. It only takes like 5 minutes per corner to change the pads, since I have the wheels off to put on race tires anyway, so I do a little extra work but I think it is worth it.
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I got a set of carbotechs for my RX-8 a track day. They were utterly perfect in every way. Never even a hint of fade (combined with a good fluid).
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Originally Posted by CodingParadox
(Post 2257015)
I got a set of carbotechs for my RX-8 a track day. They were utterly perfect in every way. Never even a hint of fade (combined with a good fluid).
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
(Post 2256501)
I used Carbotechs religiously on my Corvette, and loved them. I bought a set of Panther+ for the RX-8 when we got it, one event and the material came off the backing plate. I sent it back and they just glued it back together rather than replacing them, after it fell apart during the bedding process I threw them away. Luckily the OE pads are perfect for autox. I won some Hawk pads at ProSolo's so I got a set of Blues for track days, they work great. It only takes like 5 minutes per corner to change the pads, since I have the wheels off to put on race tires anyway, so I do a little extra work but I think it is worth it.
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Call carbotech and use what they recommend. I believe it's XP10 front and XP8 rear, which is the same compound mix that I use on the miata. I could out-brake anyone on the track.
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Originally Posted by CodingParadox
(Post 2257600)
Call carbotech and use what they recommend. I believe it's XP10 front and XP8 rear, which is the same compound mix that I use on the miata. I could out-brake anyone on the track.
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Yeah. I definitely just used them for the track day. They work fine on the street, but more initial pressure is required until they warm up. But it only takes about 2/3s of a lap for them to get to full working temperature on Pacific or PIR. I really really like the carbotechs. I use them on my Alltrac and Miata as well.
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See post from earlier in this thread with response from Carbotech: XP10 front, XP8 rear is what they recommend.
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Is Carbotech useable on the streets? I'm not talking about whether or not it works (it should), but whether it's a sustainable useage thing (i.e., not something you have to replace every few months because it wears out so fast on you).
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^
The concept with Carbotech is that you can swap in the track pad for track days and and swap in the Bobcat (street) pad for daily driving and both pads have compatible compound- so nothing funky happens with the compound deposit on the rotor. |
Originally Posted by SouthFL
(Post 2259334)
^
The concept with Carbotech is that you can swap in the track pad for track days and and swap in the Bobcat (street) pad for daily driving and both pads have compatible compound- so nothing funky happens with the compound deposit on the rotor. |
How long do you guys take for a pad swap? Last I did it, it took 8 guys and 4 hours because the cube tool kept slipping out of the rear calipers.
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Once the tires are removed, a few minutes at each corner if working fast...and yeah, everyonce in a while the rear caliper tool is a bit of a pain...I also usually use that time to spot check that everything is in place and locked down - endlinks/sways, steering rack, caliper brackets, coilover, etc...
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You guys must be masochists :icon_no2:with all your talk of changing pads on the fly, at the track, mismatched pad compounds, mismatched rotor/pads (a concept I've never hear of ThecdnRX8 - maybe you didn't bed them in? doesn't sound quite right somehow).
You could save yourselves a lot of work, inconvenience, and the cost of extra pads - here's a full range of pads with the benefit of working at everyday street temps AND any conceivable track temp: :lol: XTR 100F-1600F XR1 100F-1600F XR2 50F-1600F XR3 50F-1600F XR4 50F-1500F GT-S 50F-1200F http://www.cobaltfriction.com/compounds/ GT-S, XR2, XR3 are stock product for the front on RX-8, others avail. GT-S, XR4, XR5 (not on the web site) are stock product for the rear on RX-8, others avail. http://www.cobaltfriction.com/assets...%20--%20OE.pdf |
I've heard that the GT-S is a very, very good street/track pad, but that the XR series pads are pretty aggressive for street? I don't know, I've never tried them, mostly because they are so pricey and I figured I was just going to wear out my pads quickly, in any case :)
The other brand I've also heard great things (or at least good things) about is Pagid, but, they also are very pricey... |
I've learned that when you buy cheap, you usually buy over and over, and have less than steller results, but when you buy quality, things last longer, work better, and ultimately cost less. I don't know, but cheap seems to be too important a critera to many.
The GT-S is as you say, when mine do wear down I'm going for the XR5 in back, and XR3 or 4 in front. But then I dream about pulling my eyes out of their sockets from G-force threshold braking :lol2: Basically I want to stop like the Ferraris I see on track lol, and replace the rotors as needed :lol:, not the pads, they're cheaper! |
Originally Posted by Spin9k
(Post 2259834)
You guys must be masochists :icon_no2:with all your talk of changing pads on the fly, at the track, mismatched pad compounds, mismatched rotor/pads (a concept I've never hear of ThecdnRX8 - maybe you didn't bed them in? doesn't sound quite right somehow).
You could save yourselves a lot of work, inconvenience, and the cost of extra pads - here's a full range of pads with the benefit of working at everyday street temps AND any conceivable track temp: :lol: XTR 100F-1600F XR1 100F-1600F XR2 50F-1600F XR3 50F-1600F XR4 50F-1500F GT-S 50F-1200F http://www.cobaltfriction.com/compounds/ GT-S, XR2, XR3 are stock product for the front on RX-8, others avail. GT-S, XR4, XR5 (not on the web site) are stock product for the rear on RX-8, others avail. http://www.cobaltfriction.com/assets...%20--%20OE.pdf |
Originally Posted by ThecdnRX8
(Post 2260185)
This is a known issue I just found out to late.
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=73 I was concidering the colbat GT-S pads but when I sent a e-mail to them they told me the pads would not be suitable for winter driving. Gets pretty damn cold in Montreal -40 c. Spin9k do your drive you car in the winter if so how are the pads holding up? But where I am temps are more typically 10-40 F and yes I when I drive it (not too much) they act absolutely the same as in the summer. Instant stopping with no warmup needed. I have Racing Brake 2-piece rotors and haven't seen any builup or problems. But if you're really at -40C - holy smokes, I'd stay home! And I can see why Cobalt would say they are not for that temp as they spec 50F and up. |
Originally Posted by SouthFL
(Post 2259882)
I've seen threads about Carbotech / RacingBrake rotor incompatibility over at NASIOC where people were having similar problems with the combo on their subies.
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Originally Posted by Spin9k
(Post 2260425)
I would imagine the buildup is from binder material that doesn't warm up/burn off from conventionaly manufactured pad material and get's redepositied on cold rotors as the rotors prop cool off real quick in cold weather driving. Cobalts don't have binder in the bads, so it may not be a problem for them. (Just hazarding a guess)
RB two-piece rotors are made from specially formulated alloys and high carbon cast ion and are proven in the race tracks that they are highly resistant to wear, warping or thermal cracking under extreme heat cycles than OE or others. Since our disc material is different from OE or other rotor manufacturers, the same racing pads you used to know or install (typically Carbotech or Ferrado) and work well on these rotors may not function satisfactorily on our rotors. One of the most common issues is the pad deposit which is a substance emitted from the pad under high heat and transferred to the rotor surface that can cause vibration, pedal pulsation and hot spots on rotors surface resulting in thermal cracks or pre-mature brake failure. It’s your own protection and responsibility to ensure that you use the true racing pads that used by professional racers like Hawk, Mintex, Raybestos (Porterfield), Cobalt or Pagid that can really take the heat without pad deposit concern. Nothing comes without a cost, professional racing pads prices are usually 20-30 percent more than Carbotech or Ferrado which are more popular to weekend racers. To help you offset the cost burden for Corvette C6 applications we are offering a 20% discount on Hawk pads (street or motorsports) if ordered together with our two-piece rotors. Please be aware that pad deposit comes from pad and stays on rotor, not originated by rotor but it can easily cause rotor to fail, which is beyond what we can guarantee. (Click to enlarge) We have sold thousand sets of high performance rotors (one piece, two piece and brake kit), so far we received two reports on RB rotors performance issues resulting from the pad deposit (build up): First customer used RB one piece rotor for his front EVO and he used Ferrado 2500 pad: http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=155348 Second customer used RB two piece rotor for his front STi and he used Carbotech XP10 pad: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936395 Both cases were well discussed on their forums and we did not disagree to their discussion, although we would also like to see how we can help them out, as we believe an open discussion is the best way to find out the truth. By reading the two threads you would probably agree that: On both issues, customers used other pads than what we have endorsed which is Hawk. We found no similar or more instances in those threads, in fact there are people complimenting on our brake performance. Brake is a rather complicated system to optimize the performance especially for highly demanding braking requirement; unless an analysis is done similar to the one in here: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthre...=30353&page=20 When there is a problem the driver tends to put the blame on “rotors” and center the discussion around it, which not only is unfair to the rotor manufacturer but also can mislead the readers. We have also consulted a racing pads expert dealing with NASCAR professional racing teams and his comments on brake pad deposit (build up): Quote: "There are several reasons that an unusual pad build up can occur on a rotor. It is important that the rotor be machined well with good parallelism, flatness, and run out. From our experience the RB rotors meet this standard and this should not be a concern. Some pad compounds are more prone to leaving build-up on rotors than the other. This especially occurs when the pad is used at temperatures outside the operating range the pad was designed for. It is important for racers to have an idea of what temperatures their brake systems are operating in at any given event and choose an appropriate pad for that temperature range." Our two-piece rotors are machined with high precision and dynamically balanced which cannot be achieved by a brake shop. Resurfacing the rotor not only wouldn't solve the problem, as it will come back, but also the rotor precision integrity will be impaired. Turning the rotor surface is not recommended. Always consult your racing pad suppliers and make sure the pad you choose is appropriate for your braking temperature range. If you do experience an abnormal deposit, talk to your pad suppliers for their recommendations, clean the deposit on the rotor rather than resurfacing it. We also like to reiterate that RB two piece rotors have been made from the same racing metallurgy (different from stock material) with proven success: http://forums.racingbrake.com/viewtopic.php?t=49 |
Good post & info SouthFL, this bit I think says a lot:
"ItÂ’s your own protection and responsibility to ensure that you use the true racing pads that used by professional racers like Hawk, Mintex, Raybestos (Porterfield), Cobalt or Pagid that can really take the heat without pad deposit concern. Nothing comes without a cost, professional racing pads prices are usually 20-30 percent more than Carbotech or Ferrado which are more popular to weekend racers. " |
Originally Posted by Spin9k
(Post 2260492)
Good post & info SouthFL, this bit I think says a lot:
"ItÂ’s your own protection and responsibility to ensure that you use the true racing pads that used by professional racers like Hawk, Mintex, Raybestos (Porterfield), Cobalt or Pagid that can really take the heat without pad deposit concern. Nothing comes without a cost, professional racing pads prices are usually 20-30 percent more than Carbotech or Ferrado which are more popular to weekend racers. " Anyhow, I'd think if you are going to go down the path suggested by RB, you will need dedicated rotors for street and track, imho. While there is a difference between "pad deposit" and "pad transfer film", the fact is that the only way disc brakes work is with pad material being transferred to the rotor, at some level. The problem with running dedicated race pads and street pads on the same rotor is that the street pads typically will not be able to, in effect, scrape the transfer film of the race pads from the rotors, when switched. Ultimately, the street pads are likely to get big time squeal and shudder, due to the uneven pad transfer film that can develop. On the other hand, if you run race pads on the street, you will eat rotors up, because you won't get up to operating temps and will be stopping by simply grinding the pad against the rotor... Even using the same brand race and street pad is no guarantee, as I found out when I was running Hawks. I guess you could use a dual purpose pad that you are happy with, on stock rotors (like the Carbotech XP's). Given the speeds acheived by stock '8s on course, this should work for most. Or have two sets of rotors (which is what I did with my Z06, seeing as oem rotors were $24/each...no shxt) and run bed/run one set of race pads/rotors for track days and another set for street. In either case, this whole pad question is just one piece of the puzzle...personally, if I was going to track my RX8, the first thing I'd do for the brake system is install some ducting directly to the spindle/center of rotor, before I started "optimizing" my choice of brake pad. |
Originally Posted by mwood
(Post 2261983)
(which is what I did with my Z06, seeing as oem rotors were $24/each...no shxt)
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Originally Posted by Red Devil
(Post 2261992)
That's unbelievable...why so cheap???
They're just oem replacements, either Raybestos or AC Delco...made in U.S. or Canada...no "foreign" premium :) |
The RB 2-pc rotor material is some of the best I've seen, no complaints here
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 2262355)
The RB 2-pc rotor material is some of the best I've seen, no complaints here
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they're rotors are unique with the center offset hat lugs, the common rotor hats don't fit their rotors
The big race teams probably get the same or equivalent, if not better, material from other sources. Can't really expect them to be using grassroots parts. Not to mention many times they use whoever is paying the most in sponsorship money. |
Originally Posted by mwood
(Post 2261983)
I'm not sure I would take the response of a single rotor manufacturer as "gospel", they clearly have their own agenda, which is keeping customers who are having a problem with their product.
Anyway I don't simply believe in a company's products or 'gospel' just on the face of it (brand envy). Rather I believe when shown products developed and justified using good engineering and manufacturing processes. I see both RB and Stoptech companies this way. Their respective web sites are good examples of engineering focused sites, not so much marketing driven. One BIG difference I do see, however, is that RB has a forum discussion area where people can post problems and get answers - at least there is a give and take there directly with the people who can help, and you and I can see the results. People will ALWAYS have (or think they have) some difficulties that need discussion or help. That's a big plus in my mind. Where Stoptech's forum? Where are their warts? There must be some and their engineers & tech support people must know about them. We just don't. Anyhow, I'd think if you are going to go down the path suggested by RB, you will need dedicated rotors for street and track, imho. While there is a difference between "pad deposit" and "pad transfer film", the fact is that the only way disc brakes work is with pad material being transferred to the rotor, at some level. The problem with running dedicated race pads and street pads on the same rotor is that the street pads typically will not be able to, in effect, scrape the transfer film of the race pads from the rotors, when switched. Ultimately, the street pads are likely to get big time squeal and shudder, due to the uneven pad transfer film that can develop. On the other hand, if you run race pads on the street, you will eat rotors up, because you won't get up to operating temps and will be stopping by simply grinding the pad against the rotor... IMO these type of anecdotal issues brought up by so few people, in many cases, are really the result of some untold stories that ACTUALLY caused/contributed to the problem. We see evidence of this regularly here on the forum w/someone blaming something or other when in reality it is not anything like that at all. I guess you could use a dual purpose pad that you are happy with, on stock rotors (like the Carbotech XP's). Given the speeds acheived by stock '8s on course, this should work for most. Or have two sets of rotors (which is what I did with my Z06, seeing as oem rotors were $24/each...no shxt) and run bed/run one set of race pads/rotors for track days and another set for street. In either case, this whole pad question is just one piece of the puzzle...personally, if I was going to track my RX8, the first thing I'd do for the brake system is install some ducting directly to the spindle/center of rotor, before I started "optimizing" my choice of brake pad. ps You should take your 8 to the track! It's the most fun you can have sitting down!! |
Ferodo is the correct spelling.
http://www.racingbrake.com/v/vspfile...ad-deposit.jpg The rotor on the left has seen massively more heat than the rotor on the right. You can tell from the checking. The rotor on the right has transferred pad material, it's just better controlled. It's still uneven due to the different operating temperatures on the rings of holes and the rotor sections without a ring of holes. It's certainly not terrible, though. Rotor chemistry can affect the tendency for pad material to transfer. And because there's a chemistry component, different pad materials may respond differently. There are many problems that can occur when pads are operated above their design temperature limit. They are varied, but all fall under the umbrella of "uncontrolled friction interface". Uneven material transfer (leading to judder), abnormal wear (even but fast, or severe taper), etc. |
You must have been choosen to be our sacrifical lamb ThecdnRX8. Hopefully everyone hears the warning and doesn't do what you did. We can drown your sorrows over a brew when we meet up at MT or Calabogie one day, deal :) ?
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I am getting new brakes ( rotors & pads ) and am in a real debate between rx7 store and racing brake.......my real issue is the pads....I live in kingston and its cold here too.....not sure if i should just get the hp+ or what......there is a ton of info out there on the web and its a difficult choice.......I dont have much experiance with trying a lot of brake pads, but I found the OEM brakes good for stock brakes and ran 7 - 8 track days on them with no problem.....ended up with brake fade if I stayed out more than 25 minutes. SO I assume anything would be an upgrade.......maybe slotted rotors with HP+ pads?? probably what I will go for and hope for the best, unless anyone has other suggestions.
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Originally Posted by Gecko69
(Post 2263472)
I am getting new brakes ( rotors & pads ) and am in a real debate between rx7 store and racing brake.......my real issue is the pads....I live in kingston and its cold here too.....not sure if i should just get the hp+ or what......there is a ton of info out there on the web and its a difficult choice.......I dont have much experiance with trying a lot of brake pads, but I found the OEM brakes good for stock brakes and ran 7 - 8 track days on them with no problem.....ended up with brake fade if I stayed out more than 25 minutes. SO I assume anything would be an upgrade.......maybe slotted rotors with HP+ pads?? probably what I will go for and hope for the best, unless anyone has other suggestions.
> RB two piece slotted rotors front & OEM rotors rear > OEM calipers > Cobalt Friction GT-S pads all around (3 season) w/above a benefit and as you live in the frozen north... > switch back to OEM pads for winter depending on how hard you track... > do my $20 DIY brake duct cooling mod As for the HP+, don't waste your money. HP+ pads aren't much (if any) better than OEM. I ran OEM at track for 2 years, not bad. I ran HP+ for 1 yr, switched with 2/3 pad left, they were disappointing/uninspiring at best (@MT, NHIS). Not really a good HPDE3/4 track pad IMHO. |
If you MUST have those HP+ pads (set for 4 wheels) I'll sell you mine cheap. They're in great shape, I'll post pics if you want ... :lol2: pm me.
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thanks a lot......I would assume that a one peice would be ok as well as I am not overly concerned with weight.....just dont know if I can justify the price for two peice.
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hahahah.....was looking at the gt-s pads as well.....think I might take your recomendation. thanks.
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Old topic, but I'm in the same boat now: OEM brakes get soft on track days after 4-5 laps at Carolina Motorsports Park (hard on brakes). Just moved to Solo from DE. No ax yet, just road course.
The car goes on the street as well (not a daily driver though), so will need track day AND street set-ups. Looked at Hawk and Carbotech, found the same answers as above. New Questions ( I hope): 1. Do braided brakes lines help? 2. Anybody using a fluid with higher temps than ATE Superblue? Which? Did it help? 3. Who make the MS pads? Do they work in hard braking? 4. Haven't seen many complaints on stock rotors. Any comments? thanks in advance |
Originally Posted by LowCG
(Post 2501224)
Old topic, but I'm in the same boat now: OEM brakes get soft on track days after 4-5 laps at Carolina Motorsports Park (hard on brakes). Just moved to Solo from DE. No ax yet, just road course.
The car goes on the street as well (not a daily driver though), so will need track day AND street set-ups. Looked at Hawk and Carbotech, found the same answers as above. New Questions ( I hope): 1. Do braided brakes lines help? 2. Anybody using a fluid with higher temps than ATE Superblue? Which? Did it help? 3. Who make the MS pads? Do they work in hard braking? 4. Haven't seen many complaints on stock rotors. Any comments? thanks in advance I'm a bit anal retentive, though. I tend to bleed the brakes before every other track day, and I flush the brakes every six months. I look at it as cheap insurance. |
Where can the Cobalt GT-S be picked up, I been looking for a nice reliable DD & Semi-Track setup on my OEM Calipers & Rotors.
I think I too will take your recommendation Spin9k... |
Okay, i found it -- for $134 here --
http://rpgproduction.rpmware.com/cob.../i-151116.aspx - and the rear for $116 here - http://rpgproduction.rpmware.com/cob.../i-151115.aspx for anyone who is interested... |
Originally Posted by LowCG
(Post 2501224)
Old topic, but I'm in the same boat now: OEM brakes get soft on track days after 4-5 laps at Carolina Motorsports Park (hard on brakes). Just moved to Solo from DE. No ax yet, just road course.
The car goes on the street as well (not a daily driver though), so will need track day AND street set-ups. Looked at Hawk and Carbotech, found the same answers as above. New Questions ( I hope): 1. Do braided brakes lines help? With brake feel, not fade. Easier to modulate. 2. Anybody using a fluid with higher temps than ATE Superblue? Which? Did it help? Motul is great, I ran for a couple of years, but I switched to ATE, and had no issues with it either. 3. Who make the MS pads? Do they work in hard braking? 4. Haven't seen many complaints on stock rotors. Any comments? thanks in advance With brake feel, not fade. Easier to modulate. 2. Anybody using a fluid with higher temps than ATE Superblue? Which? Did it help? Motul is great, I ran for a couple of years, but I switched to ATE, and had no issues with it either. For what it's worth, I went with HP+ front and rear, and had issues with rear locking (engaging ABS) which affected stability in hard braking. I will be switching to HPS for the rear. For street tires, I think HP+/HPS will be fine. I don't see the point going to full blown "race" pads with street tires for HPDE. |
Originally Posted by gojackets
(Post 2503893)
...For street tires, I think HP+/HPS will be fine. I don't see the point going to full blown "race" pads with street tires for HPDE.
I would venture you don't see the point because you've not felt the dfifference. It is very noticeable, and very nice. I didn't understand the difference it makes either until I experienced it for myself on track. You should try it, you might like it! |
Originally Posted by gojackets
(Post 2503893)
1. Do braided brakes lines help?
With brake feel, not fade. Easier to modulate. 2. Anybody using a fluid with higher temps than ATE Superblue? Which? Did it help? Motul is great, I ran for a couple of years, but I switched to ATE, and had no issues with it either. For what it's worth, I went with HP+ front and rear, and had issues with rear locking (engaging ABS) which affected stability in hard braking. I will be switching to HPS for the rear. For street tires, I think HP+/HPS will be fine. I don't see the point going to full blown "race" pads with street tires for HPDE. |
I've been using Hawk performance brake pads for 13+ years, but would never recommend HP+ to anyone, I hate that pad
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