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Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3695351)
It's course depended, I have owned, autox and tracked all 3 of the cars. The difference isn't as big as you think. I can tell you the RX-8 is the easiest but also least thrilling to drive.
A slew of other drivers and editors have praised the RX-8 on its ability to thrilll... http://verydemotivational.files.word...1214544825.jpg |
Originally Posted by TopGear8
(Post 3695455)
Just because you have owned them and raced them does not make the 350z faster than an RX8...The 350 might have suited your driving style better...maybe you can't keep the momentum up through the corners with the RX8..So you need the power of the Z to pull you out of corners...
Just a thought. |
Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3695491)
You could be right and I don't disagree with you 100%. At the same time, I have won and lost in all three cars. I can make some non bias judgment on it.
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Yea I was JK...
The 350 is actually a great machine, I usually get worked by them :(. I have no experience with the 370, Its more of a luxury car to me. I'm still not impressed with the VQ as en engine choice but that's just me |
Originally Posted by rx3oldschool
(Post 3695844)
Wow, tmak, looks like you are getting beat up by the RX-8 fanbois. Ah well, mate, welcome to the intertubes. BTW, I agree with everything you just said. :wavey:
I can tell you that the 350 is underrated by a lot of people (mostly ones who have never driven one or by people who loves the 370). The 370 is an improvement over it, but it is still a similar car. Stock to stock, here are some FACTS from the cars I owned. They are all taken from the same scale. 2006 RX-8 Sport=3000lbs (stock, full tank, full fluids, no spare, basically the way it rolls out of the factory with a full tank) 2004 350Z 287HP Enth.=3340lbs (stock, full tank, full fluids, factory tires with a spare tire) 2009 370Z 332HP Base+Sport=3345lbs (stock, full tank, full fluids, factory tires with a 34lbs spare) 2005 Corvette 400HP Z51=3300lbs (stock, full tank, full fluids, factory tires, car has no spare) I don't deny that I probably drive better in the Z than the RX-8, but I have won and lost in all the cars. It's not like I run 2 sec slower in one car over the other. |
Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3696137)
Yea I was JK...
The 350 is actually a great machine, I usually get worked by them :(. I have no experience with the 370, Its more of a luxury car to me. I'm still not impressed with the VQ as en engine choice but that's just me For autocross, I prefer the Mazda. The steering is more precise, and the lack of weight is very noticeable. Plus, it feels a lot narrower, which is a big deal in autocross. It also has much less problems putting power down on corner exit. I'm a pretty average driver, and this can't prove anything, but I do PAX marginally higher in the 370z at autocross events than my RX8 more often. It's very course dependent though. In my opinion, the Mazda is more pleasant on the track too, at least more than the 350 (I haven't tried a 370 on the track yet.) The power of the 350 is nice, lots of grip, and less transitional stuff means you really only notice the weight in braking. But I always felt like I had to drive with more of a safety cushion in the Z - like it was ready to kill me at any time. The Mazda is more of a car that begs you to push harder, and makes you feel like a hero. Nissan did really improve the 350 over the years though - the first year car was a total white knuckle car at the limit. The last bump nose cars were much more controllable and communicative, but not quite as much as the RX8. |
The problem I found at the track was that the RX-8's suspension is way too soft, I think a stiffer suspension would have worked better. I tried all three cars on the track at three different locations, the 370 is the fastest by far.
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so let me get this straight you have a 350 a 370 and an rx8, you drove all 3 of them at 3 different tracks in the same conditions? You say the 8 has soft suspension?
is the rx8 an auto with a 4 port? if its a sport 6speed you got some issues with the car. My stock suspension was annoyingly stiff. |
Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3697044)
so let me get this straight you have a 350 a 370 and an rx8, you drove all 3 of them at 3 different tracks in the same conditions? You say the 8 has soft suspension?
is the rx8 an auto with a 4 port? if its a sport 6speed you got some issues with the car. My stock suspension was annoyingly stiff. Yes I have driven it on the same day and on different days. |
Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3696994)
The problem I found at the track was that the RX-8's suspension is way too soft, I think a stiffer suspension would have worked better. I tried all three cars on the track at three different locations, the 370 is the fastest by far.
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Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3697189)
You think that is stiff, try driving a 350 or 370 (I think 350 was stiffer).
Yes I have driven it on the same day and on different days. |
Originally Posted by TopGear8
(Post 3697196)
I'll race you for pinks at...Roebling Road :)
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Roebling is a momentum course...Which will show what car is faster, not which one has more power.
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Originally Posted by TopGear8
(Post 3697281)
Roebling is a momentum course...Which will show what car is faster, not which one has more power.
http://a.imageshack.us/img534/1030/compare3.jpg Shot at 2010-09-01 Here is a comparison at VIR. I do have to admit one was on RE11, one was on RA1 and one was on bad R888. Still, the difference is big enough that a change of tire alone wouldn't put one car over another. They weren't all logged in the same day, but all were done in virtually the same weather condition (high 80s with 70% humidity and sunny). They were all stock cars with the same driver and same Carbotech pads, the only difference is the tires. Even if you have a momentum course, the difference isn't big enough to make up for all the time lost down the straights. |
Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3696994)
The problem I found at the track was that the RX-8's suspension is way too soft, I think a stiffer suspension would have worked better. I tried all three cars on the track at three different locations, the 370 is the fastest by far.
I've seen burglar drive all three cars at local autocrosses and ridden in the 370 and RX-8 with him. Both are pretty impressive, but the Z corners just as hard and is a rocket on the straightaways. It seems a little less precise though, and certainly is a much wider car to get through the transitions. What he didn't mention is that we have street tire stock classes locally, and I'm pretty sure that the Z-cars have a ton of benefit with the lower grip levels of street tires (vs R-comps) because they don't lose camber as dramatically and don't transfer enough weight to cause their infamous VLSD-induced corner-exit wheelspin. As far as the track, some track tests have shown the Z cars to be objectively faster, while the RX-8 is praised for its superior handling and chastised for being really underpowered. tmak is right that even with slightly higher cornering speeds, the RX-8's just can't keep up on even relatively short straights. P.S. tmak, you should really label your graph or something. For all I know, the RX-8 is the blue one! |
I was referring to the track regarding the soft/harsh suspension. There were a few 350s that came close in autox, but couldn't finish the job. I completely agree with you that the RX-8, but it isn't impossible to win given the right course.
With street tires, the 350Z is A LOT WORSE than the 370. I don't know what it is, but the 350 really can't turn without R comps. As far as street tires 370 (RE11) vs street tires RX-8 (Direzza), I found that very close. I feel or maybe I was able to drive faster in the 370, but it could be because of the RE11 and the way our courses are. It's still a toss up in my eyes. Yes about the one legged wheel spin on the 370, it's not quite as bad with street tires. Also I don't know what it is, but the 370 is not quite as "loose" as the 350. It could be suspension design or it could be the tires I had, but the 370 is a car that you can't overdrive (on stock suspension). If you do, the thing will just plow. In a way, it is almost like a C6 Corvette. I purposely didn't label the graph so you can guess which one is what :) Datalogs are great to have, they can break a lot of myths and theories. Obviously my comparison is still not 100% perfect due to the tire difference, but the difference is so big that tires are not going to change the order of the cars. Here is another question, guess which car had what tires.
Originally Posted by Kennetht638
(Post 3697558)
What are we even talking about here anymore? Autocross or track? I think you keep going back and forth between the two at random. The RX-8 as set up for stock class autocross has been proven to be faster than at least the 350Z. There's really not much to argue there. There haven't been many notable efforts with 370's yet so I can't say anything about that.
I've seen burglar drive all three cars at local autocrosses and ridden in the 370 and RX-8 with him. Both are pretty impressive, but the Z corners just as hard and is a rocket on the straightaways. It seems a little less precise though, and certainly is a much bigger car to get through the transitions. What he didn't mention is that we have street tire stock classes locally, and I'm pretty sure that the Z-cars have a ton of benefit with the lower grip levels of street tires (vs R-comps) because they don't lose camber as dramatically and don't transfer enough weight to cause their infamous VLSD-induced corner-exit wheelspin. As far as the track, some track tests have shown the Z cars to be objectively faster, while the RX-8 is praised for its superior handling and chastised for being really underpowered. tmak is right that even with slightly higher cornering speeds, the RX-8's just can't keep up on even relatively short straights. P.S. tmak, you should really label your graph or something. For all I know, the RX-8 is the blue one! |
You probably won't make your point without at least another 1,000 posts ..... errr .... I mean whacks
http://coreygilmore.com/uploads/2007...dead_horse.jpg . |
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 3697603)
You probably won't make your point without at least another 1,000 posts ..... errr .... I mean whacks
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 3697603)
You probably won't make your point without at least another 1,000 posts ..... errr .... I mean whacks
http://coreygilmore.com/uploads/2007...dead_horse.jpg . |
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Originally Posted by TopGear8
(Post 3697196)
I'll race you for pinks at...Roebling Road :)
Pride of ownership seems to send many people off the deep end. The next time you guys are all measuring your sticks at an event and bragging about your RX-8 or Z, don't forget about the MX-5 that just beat you. :lol: My predictions... A Z will not be in the top five (CS) at the Solo Natls this year, and an RX-8 will not be in the top five (T3) at the Runoffs. |
Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3695461)
You know whats funny here is hes assuming hes a good driver. Just cause you hit the course doesn't mean you know what your doing...
A slew of other drivers and editors have praised the RX-8 on its ability to thrilll... |
Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3696137)
Yea I was JK...
The 350 is actually a great machine, I usually get worked by them :(. I have no experience with the 370, Its more of a luxury car to me. I'm still not impressed with the VQ as en engine choice but that's just me
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
(Post 3698051)
And you are a subject matter expert because you own an RX-8? What is your experience level?
You race more than me and are clearly an expert on the subject. I'm more of a tech not a driver I drive, but not professionally. It sounds like your trying to make a point, but I don't know what it is. |
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
(Post 3698031)
Now it is just getting ridiculous. An RX-8 is no match for a Z (350 or 370) on a road course with equal drivers and mods.
Pride of ownership seems to send many people off the deep end. The next time you guys are all measuring your sticks at an event and bragging about your RX-8 or Z, don't forget about the MX-5 that just beat you. :lol: My predictions... A Z will not be in the top five (CS) at the Solo Natls this year, and an RX-8 will not be in the top five (T3) at the Runoffs. you are right that pride of ownership really cloud people's judgement. i already said i have no loyalty to either cars, yet i am still the bad guy for stating some things that are obvious to me. i am no national champ, but i am average and smart enough to be able to see the difference. speaking of t3, one of the 350 guys told me he has absolutely no chance in the class (i believe he was the class champ a few years back). they handicap the car so much that he couldnt do anything. if my memory serves me correctly, he said the t3 car has to be 3200lbs and can only run about 250bhp. (during testing the t3 restriced 350 was only a little over a second faster than a street tire 370) i dont follow the national scene, did they finally put out shocks for the 370? i think everything has to be custom design since there arent any prepared kits. it reminds me the struggle of c6 vs c5 z06 is that a yaris you are driving? |
Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3698141)
dang, you just took a car from me.
you are right that pride of ownership really cloud people's judgement. i already said i have no loyalty to either cars, yet i am still the bad guy for stating some things that are obvious to me. i am no national champ, but i am average and smart enough to be able to see the difference. speaking of t3, one of the 350 guys told me he has absolutely no chance in the class (i believe he was the class champ a few years back). they handicap the car so much that he couldnt do anything. if my memory serves me correctly, he said the t3 car has to be 3200lbs and can only run about 250bhp. (during testing the t3 restriced 350 was only a little over a second faster than a street tire 370) i dont follow the national scene, did they finally put out shocks for the 370? i think everything has to be custom design since there arent any prepared kits. it reminds me the struggle of c6 vs c5 z06 is that a yaris you are driving? They can whine all they want about how slow the Z is in T3, but the RX-8 is a bigger turd in there. Last year at the Runoffs the RX-8s were running SSB lap times, they just don't have the power to run a quick lap at Road America. The Z may not win, but it will be faster than the 8. Everything in Touring gets shocks, they are open. As are ECUs, no cats and no interior. That is the H Prod Yaris we are taking to the Runoffs. I think it has as much Tq as my RX-8. :yelrotflm p.s. I think your impressions of the 8 Vs the Z are right on. |
haha isnt scca all about politics? how long before we see 2nd gen miata in es instead of cs.
i guess it is still good we are pissing on each other over cars, better than politics. intersting choice of car for the runoff! 8 and z are both great cars in their own rights. you dont have to like it, but at least respect them. |
Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3698187)
haha isnt scca all about politics? how long before we see 2nd gen miata in es instead of cs.
i guess it is still good we are pissing on each other over cars, better than politics. intersting choice of car for the runoff! 8 and z are both great cars in their own rights. you dont have to like it, but at least respect them. The Yaris has been interesting... But hell, I would race a Yugo if they were paying. ;) |
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
(Post 3698196)
I think it is less so with Solo, only because you are not trying to adjust individual cars within a class. In Club Racing each car has its own spec line, so trying to find balance is a nightmare. With Solo your car is competitive or its not.
The Yaris has been interesting... But hell, I would race a Yugo if they were paying. ;) Also I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but the 370Z uses the brakes to prevent one wheel burnout. You can't disable it even when VDC is off. |
Originally Posted by tmak26b
(Post 3698766)
Interesting to know, thanks for the info.
Also I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but the 370Z uses the brakes to prevent one wheel burnout. You can't disable it even when VDC is off. |
Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
(Post 3698835)
That was not the case in the two 2009 cars I have driven... The Touring left a 60' patch off of the drivers side rear when pulling out of a left sweeper. The sport only got a little spin-up, there was no issue with the VDC.
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