pcimino

First question is 2 parts, regarding running B Stock, wheels need to stay same dimensions (within tolerances), but they don't really explain tire sizes.
A) Can I use a wider track (235 vs 225)?
B) Can I use a lower profile (40 vs 45)?
The comment that they must fit within the wheel wells without mods suggests I can go the widest, lowest profile that will fit on the rims.

Second question is re Shocks: What is an "Adjustable Spring Perch"? Is this a coil over with the spring adjustment?

"Adjustable spring perches are allowed, but the spring loadbearing
surface must be in the same location relative to the
shock mounting points as on the standard part. Shims may be
used to achieve compliance."

Third: The rules state "No more than two separate external shock damping adjustment controls. Gas pressure adjustment is not considered a
damping adjustment." Okay so one adjustment for bump, one for return. What can adjustable gas pressure do for me, that the dampers can't?

Thanks

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

You can run any size DOT tire that will fit the stock size wheel. The hot setup right now is the 243-35-18 Kumho V710, some guys have run as big as the 275-35-18 Hoosier.

The spring perch must be in the stock location, you can not change ride height by adjusting spring perch location.

The most shocks with two adjustments are compression and rebound. What the gas pressure can be used for is some added spring rate. The downside is if you have high pressure gas shocks it will raise your ride height.

pcimino

Okay, I', assuming "Spring Perch" is the adjustable screw on the outside of the shock for raising or lowering the spring. Is this the same thing as a coil over? If not, what is a coil over?

tuj

coil over means coil-over-spring, basically any suspension in which the spring is around the shock, and the shock is not a load-bearing member (which would be a strut). The Miata and the RX-8 have coil over suspensions, although they are not adjustable.

Most people take 'coilovers' to mean shock/spring combinations that allow adjustment of the upper and/or lower spring perches. This can have the effect of lowering the ride height, increasing the spring rate, or both.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

not really, that's a false perception. Unlike a spring, the gas pressure force remains relatively constant during suspension movement while the magnitude of spring force changes greatly. Spring rate is force relative to travel, gas pressure applied to the area of the shock shaft is simply force.

fastmike

You can have 4 way adjustable shocks too.
Just need 2 tubes of epoxy to go with them.
FM

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

These guy dont agree with you, but what would they know:

http://www.monroe.com/tech_support/t...kabsorbers.asp

" An additional benefit of gas charging is that it creates a mild boost in spring rate to the vehicle. This does not mean that a gas charged shock would raise the vehicle up to correct ride height if the springs were sagging. It does help reduce body roll, sway, brake dive, and acceleration squat. "

Also when we were working with Penske on shocks for the vette they told us we could get around 15lbs of spring rate for every 100psi in the shocks.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

well it's just misrepresented wrong. It does add a static, fixed force, but again spring rate is a dynamic, changing force. Feel free to discuss it with Lee or Jay in the Koni truck at Nationals.

Even the experts make mistakes or generalities that aren't always what they seem.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I read it on the net is must be true.
I will agree that it does not add dynamic force. However it does add a static resistance which is a good bandaid for lack of spring rate in a stock class where springs cant be changed. It does still have the drawback of taller ride height.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

it's all a matter or magnitude/relativity, the relativty on a softly sprung Ford Escort is not the same as a Z06 Vette

the fact that it's not a rate means it has little impact on dive/squat as proposed, those rates are controlled by shock valving rather than gas force, it will effect the magnitude some, but the actual magnitude of those generalities are quite small, to the point of being inconsequential in competition driving.

it's not a good bandaid at all, but again I'm sure the real experts like the Motorsports guys from Koni can explain it better to you at Nationals than myself.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Come on, next your going to tell me my strut tower brace does not help. :p

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

a replacement one won't be of any noticeable benefit for Stock, if you somehow took that post to mean none at all doesn't matter you were mistaken, or have you simply resorted to egging me on because you can't respond technically?

fwiw, I used to believe the same thing, but I was taught otherwise by people in the damper industry

Imp

I wonder if Mark can actually make a post anywhere on the intarweb without putting someone down or thinking he's better than everyone out here knowledgwise.

I just don't think it is possible.

Mark... really. You're kinda rough around the edges... and it's those above statements from you that makes the n00bs scared to post questions.

Can you just keep things to facts without going out and attacking everyone that you happen to disagree with on any particular day?

--kC

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

well it started off that way, but then there was this

but I apologize for letting myself get egged on. Jaspon's a great driver, but his characterization of the gas pressure force was incorrect. That's all I originally intended to clarify on. I went back and cleaned up various snippets, I appreciate what you're saying Keith, thanks for the reminder.

pcimino

Great info...

Okay, so now B Stock states 2 adjustments allowed on a shock (I assume compression and rebound adjustments). But searching for upgrades I keep seeing things like 16 way or 40 way adjustable??? Are these just settings on the dial selector for the damper and they're just saying you can fine tune the stiffness? I see stuff like the dial selector adjusts both rebound and compression. Do I care? Or do I want truly dual adjustable?

The JIC Coilovers look great but are these B Stock legal. What else is available? Everyone talks about the Konis, my concern there is I don't want to remove them to adjust the rears. Does Tokico have a setup for the RX-8 yet?

What brands have kits for the Rx-8? Pros, cons? And remember I want to stay in B-Stock.

Thanks.

Imp

Yes. 16-way/40-way etc... are just increments of adjusting one value (like just rebound, just compression, or some shocks adjust both rebound & compression at the same time through one ****.. which still counts as one adjustment 'control'.) Here's the reference of the rule:Which means you can have up to 2 ways per shock to adjust your compression values and rebound. There are some triple adjustable shocks out there that control not only rebound(1), but also low speed(2) and high speed(3) compression.

If you know exactly what you are doing when you adjust things, and you need that extra tenth of a second on the national scale of competition... maybe. Having only one adjustment method means you'll screw up the adjustments one less way on race day.

No (unless you weld the spring perches and use the stock springs in their exact ride height according to the rules). Personal note: I would never buy JICs. Too many issues with them with EVOs/STis breaking, failing, etc.. but that's just me... others may have different opinions/

Neither do I, but one does what one can when needed to win. They're one of the best and only options for stock class right now. If they came out with a better way to adjust that didn't cost $texas, then I'd probaby have them. You could always get some custom setup (like clydes Double adjustables) but I feel the OTS konis are about 90% there for an RX8. (I'd change a few things after a few events on them, but they're damn good).

Dunno.

Again.. Koni is one of the best options out there now. It only takes about 30-45 min to adjust the rears. It's easy to do, just time consuming.

clyde

Your basic shock has no adjustments. Single adjustables generally work on low speed rebound. Double adjustables generally add a high speed bounce (compresion) adjustments. Triples will generally add another rebound or bounce adjusment. Four ways will usually add the other.

The multi way shocks that you're talking about offer XX number of fixed settings that probably affect both rebound and bounce simultaneously through a single adjustment. That's fine for the street ricer crowd, but not what you really want for autocrossing. IMO, you're better off with a single adjustable, like the Koni, than one of those mult ways becuase you'll only be able to make changes that you want to make. When something is fixed and you can't change it, you can't make it worse. Play with the rebound to your heart's content, but you won't screw it up through changing the bounce in a way that you shouldn't or don't want to just to get the rebound that you do want.

No.

Tokico makes the OE shock, so you already have their kit. Have heard that they have something coming, but who know when and whether it will be any good?

You can get Koni 28 series, which are a lot more money for what is probably very little improvement (aside from the convenience of having external adjustments for rebound and bounce on the bottom of the shock). And I think there's an uberexpensive Penske option as well.

The off the shelf single adjustable Koni Sports are pretty cheap and do a really good job. They can be converted so the rears are externally adjustable, but you still have to drop the shock down a bit to get to the adjustment tab and you can also add bump adjustments to them. By the time you do that, you'll probably have about doubled the cost of each shock. More importantly, though, just because you have adjustments available to you doesn't mean that you know how to use them effectively.

Until your driving gets to a level where you are very consistent and your feel has developed enough to tell the difference in what the settings are doing to the car, the extra adjustments probably aren't going to be very helpful for you (unless you stumble onto the perfect combination by accident...but even then, you'll probably change it). Having more adjustments available to you makes it really easy to go chasing settings when you should be focusing on your driving. The less you have to futz with, the easier it is to just drive, and that's where the biggest improvements to your times will come from.

For right now, I'd suggest single adjustable Konis and then ask us for baseline setting suggestions after September 16. Set them there and then don't worry about it for a long time.

(Imp wrote faster than I did. :p)

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

At our natls warm up on Sunday I drove the 28 series equiped RX8 and mine back to back..... Interesting results.

clyde

I wouldn't have paid extra for the doubles. Without a whole lot of detail, I was brand new to adjustable shocks last year. Um, most of that year I had the left side shocks set inversely to the right sides. And about 3 seconds after I realized that, I gave myself a nice burn on the wrist from the exhaust while changing one of the rear settings. I'm just going to stop there before I embarass myself even more except to say that there was even more to it. :o

Imp

By about an hour? Wow.. are you that slow on the course? (Yet another thread that Nationals smack talk filters into) :D

--kC

clyde

write a few words here, take a phone call, a few words there, chat with someone that drops by my office, a few more words...start all over again, repeat several times...it adds up.

But yes...I have been that slow lately which is why I took a Challenge school this weekend. I may not be any faster next time out, but I have a clearer idea of what I have to work on now. Oh, and FWIW, apparently Sammy is more scared of the RX-8s now after having driven mine.