Hi,

I checked around for any direct input on my question but it seems that there's little information on this topic.

I have zero experience using spacers & as the thread title states, I'm wondering if it will be safe to use 15mm spacers with studs at the track? I suppose if I removed the spacer studs & used them purely as spacers with extended hub studs, that would be a better alternative, correct? They're the Ichiba brand "ultra-light weight spacers made from high strength hard aluminum alloy."

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for looking!

 

There has been discussions on this topic and there are mixed opinions. Some swear that spacers are dangerous and others have no problem with them. I had them on my 8 for awhile and had no problems. I do not track my car, so I cannot comment on that aspect. If you do decide to get them just make sure they are hubcentric and that you torque them down correctly. Doesn't hurt to check them every once in awhile to make sure they are still torqued down. Just search google for reviews on spacers if you want to read more about them.

 

They are OK...not ideal...but OK

 

Not sure, but I do know the HKS Time Attack EVO that was destroying lap times everywhere around the world was running some pretty massive ones! From the photos I saw I would say they were running about 50mm.

 

If you use stock bolts then you will shorten the contact points. Hence the load is more on the rest of bolt.
You may or may not find out until they snap - hey I'm not going to die am I?

 

Obviously & I'm confused if you intended to have something valuable to add to this thread in regards to my question or just post a smart-*** remark?

This is a serious matter, so can we please keep all comments of that nature.

Thank you.

 

^^^ this statement did appear to have some value.

 

That's just common sense IMO.

Now is it me, or is everyone on here some sort of a wise guy? What does it say when you can hardly ever create a thread without this happening?

 

Whooooaaaa chill dude. He was referring to the spacers that just go straight on the hub and use the factory bolts and thats it. If you do get spacers, you are going to want the set that has an extra set of bolts built in so you can use the factory bolts to hold the spacer down and the bolts on the spacer to hold the wheel down. Sounds confusing, but check the pic.

 

That's it. Spacers have been used for years on old race cars, especially the old British MGB's, etc. and they are used a lot in the off roading world where they see some pretty hard use (probably see way more stress than they ever would on our car). But, properly sized wheels are ideal. I have been running spacers for a couple of years in one way or another and never had an issue.

But if you are running thin spacers then do your self a favor and get proper (ARP) extended studs. If you are running 25mm spacers then just get quality spacers with good hardware and good lug nuts. I have 10mm Project Kics spacers and Ichiba extended studs. I will be installing ARP extended studs soon before I hit the track this year.

I did a lot of research about spacers a couple of years back and found that most who bash them have never used them and the horror stories I did read about them were all do to a poor installation or improper use. But I can understand why some think they are dumb, tracking is expensive so it's best to get a proper set of track dedicated wheels.

 

First, you should clarify which type of spacer you are talking about. That will help prevent people from getting annoyed with each other because they're actually talking about different things.

Normal spacers are just a metal plate with holes that slide over the existing studs between the wheel and the hub, then you bolt the wheel on using the existing studs. When you use those, the lug nuts don't tighten down as far on the studs, so there are fewer threads in contact, and more force per thread. One guideline I think I remember is that you should have a minimum of six full turns of the nut onto the stud. If the nut doesn't tighten that far, then you need to replace the studs with longer ones if you want to safely use that spacer. 15mm is very likely to require longer studs.

Some spacers have their own studs, and bolt on to the existing studs. Those are generally used for really thick spacers or as bolt pattern adapters. They need to be thick enough to cover up the original studs, unless you're lucky enough to have holes in the wheel that are exactly in the right place for the original studs to go through when the mounting holes are lined up with the spacer studs. 15mm isn't thick enough to cover your stock studs, but you might be able to get shorter studs that are just long enough to get a nut on but short enough not to protrude. This type of spacer also needs to be rigid enough to not bend between the vehicle studs and the spacer studs. Generally not a problem when they are really thick, but I'd be a little nervous (based on my own intuition, not on calculations) about a 15mm spacer made of aluminum.

The normal solution for using 15mm spacers is to use a standard spacer (just holes no extra studs) and replace the vehicle studs with 15mm longer studs.

 

Personally I wouldn't use any spacer made of aluminum. Aluminum doesn't have a minimum amount of strain it can experience without weakening; you can tap on it with your finger and it will break eventually. Even spacers that don't have their own studs still have hub-centric lips for the wheels to center themselves on, and those support some amount of the car's weight. Steel and titanium do have a minimum strain threshold, and below that threshold there is no damage to the metal's crystal lattice no matter how many times the strain is applied. Given how fast wheels rotate when driving fast, the number of load cycles will add up really fast in a racing environment.

 

Yep, there are many opinions. Most by people who have never used them in a real world environment.

 

I have seen cars fail tech for not enough turns on the lug nuts. I think the minimum was 8 or 9. Some cars have a thicker bolt and coarser thread (BMW I think) so they can get by with 7 or so.

For the size you are looking at, you will likely need something like the ones in the picture above. But, 15 mm sounds like too little for the bolt on ones above, and does not sound like it will leave enough stud for the necessary number of turns to be safe.

What is driving the need for spacers? Can you do without them for the track or will stuff rub?

 

That's not correct. Once the lug nuts are tight, the car's weight is entirely supported by friction between the spacer face and the hub face.

If you're worried about simple aluminum spacers, you should be equally or more alarmed over aluminum wheels.

 

Thanks sooo much for the input everyone!

The Ichiba (version 2) spacers I have come with studs & from what I've read on their website the plate material is an "aluminum/ magnesium alloy."

And my wheels are forged.

 

"aluminum/magnesium alloy" = aluminum.

If you use those, be very sure that the wheel is not held off the surface of the spacer by the stock stud tips. If the wheel is resting on the stock studs instead of the spacer, some very bad things will happen. Also, it sounds like you need to periodically remove the wheels and check the torque on the lug nuts holding the spacers on.

 

Here's the skinny from my POV...if you buy the correct wheels you don't need them

If you need longer studs to correct using spacers with the wrong wheels you will end up spending more money for a setup that has the potential to break easier....what's the point?

 

Agreed. Properly sized wheels eliminates the hassle.

 

Yes, I also agree.

 

They can be used to affect the handling balance in a competitive situation, so to say they are not needed, prpoer wheels, etc. can be a misleading. Most people only consider the hubface or ball joint for motion ratio or wheel rate, but in reality it is the tire position that ultimately determines this. So long studs with spacers can be an effective tuning tool for surface grip differences between different track locations. Spacing the wheel outward results in a softer wheel rate and vice versa. A bit different than what the OP is asking, but people read this type of thread and get a general misperception of the actual facts. Just clarifying that point.

Generally speaking the driver is likely to be a bigger safety risk than wheel spacers ...

 

Here is some trivia for you the 10 Rear Wheel Studs/Bolts (B455-33-062) use on the RX-8 and Miata and many other Mazda's are also used on the front wheels of Mazda's T2000 2 ton truck, so they must be pretty weak, the exact same OE part?

 

Howdy,

I'm new here, but not new to motorsports in general.

The executive summary version is that pretty much any wheel spacer is fine, as long as you have enough thread engagement on the lug nuts / studs. "Enough" is perhaps up for debate, but certainly as long as you have 1 diameter of engagement (so, on a 12x1.5 stud, that would be eight turns) you'll be fine. I think in reality its lower than that, and you can research yourself if you want to push it. This looks like a pretty in depth analysis: http://www.ajaxfast.com.au/downloads...anythreads.pdf

As John mentioned, a properly mounted wheel is held in position by the friction forces on the hub face, NOT the hub centric mounting lip. The hub centric mounting lip is there to help ensure that the wheel is mounted up centered on the hub, not to take load when its properly mounted. Using spacers doesn't change any of this. A dead flat spacer is just as safe as a hub centric one. If you have the spacer material depth, making them hub centric makes stuff easier to install, not safer. Note here that you want to make sure your wheel spacer has at least as much friction area as your wheel & that its lined up with the wheel... This doesn't matter if its literally just a flat piece of AL or whatever with five holes drilled in it, but if your spacer has void areas, its worthwhile holding them up to the wheel to make sure the wheel will still have plenty of bearing area.

Studs integral to the spacer or not is more about packaging or whatever than anything else. Again, this shouldn't be a safety concern.

So to the OP... Use wheel spacers as you like. They're not inherently unsafe, or anything like that. You'll find them on cars at every level of competition.

Mark

 

I used to have spacers on my 8 before I started tracking (autocross) ..... i removed them and sold them though.

My decision was based on this: "Is this your first time tracking your car?"

For me it was : "Yes"

So if you were to follow the imaginary flowchart of logic the next spot one might land on is : "How about you remove the easily removable suspension 'mods' for a season or so, just to understand the dynamics of the car, then mod as you see fit"

 

"enough" thread length is generally defined as the diameter of the stud

I had someone giving me crap recently because I had spacers stacked up three deep to get the total amount needed. His argumment was that they would allow the wheel to move independent from the hub under acceleration/braking. If you think about it that doesn't make much sense when using a conical lugnut/wheel interface torqued to the proper spec.