to those who thinks HP don't make a difference
09-07-2007 | 04:41 PM
#26
Blue By You
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From: Milwaukee
You are misrepresenting your numbers by pulling a figure from just one or two points on the track.
A heavier car can lose more than one second PER CORNER to an RX-8. A heavier car, with a nose-heavy imbalance will corner slower than the RX-8, even if it does pull an advantage in time and speed down the straights. The more laps there are on the tires and the brakes, the closer the margin will be on the straights because the heavier car will get progressively slower in the corners, without gaining the ability to accelerate any harder down the straights. True speed (and time) is lost in the corners, not on the straights. With the exception of a very long straight, on a track, a car will spend MORE time in the corners and braking zones than on the straights. Period. The RX-8 rules the corners and the braking zones.
Speedsoure RX-8, ST-class, 3-time Champions, any questions? BTW, didn't Speedsource go to VIR and WIN a race one year? I forget...
An RX-8 with an improved suspension, lighter wheels, and better tires than stock will obliterate a stock Z (the stock Z comes with better and wider tires than the RX-8) on most tracks, while selling for less money even with the modifications! Sure you can upgrade the Z too, but still, if we're talking dollars-to-performance, the Z starts out in the hole. It isn't the fastest in its price-range, it isn't the best handling, but it is a solid start. Nissan aimed for the 911, and fell short. My Base 6MT was $25,800 before taxes, and before rebates. A 350Z starts around $28,000 before taxes, and doesn't have any rebates. That sort of difference buys a LOT of goodies.
A new Corvette IS a fancy fiberglass go-cart for the street, with a power-to-weight ratio to match! It's an unfair fight to say that a 5.7 liter, 400-HP car with perfect front/rear balance and very sticky/wide stock tires is faster than an RX-8. It's also faster than 95% of the other vehicles in the world, from any era. I can also drive a nice RX-8 and a new pickup truck for the cost of one Corvette! Again, for price-vs-performance, the RX-8 is a very good value.
A heavier car can lose more than one second PER CORNER to an RX-8. A heavier car, with a nose-heavy imbalance will corner slower than the RX-8, even if it does pull an advantage in time and speed down the straights. The more laps there are on the tires and the brakes, the closer the margin will be on the straights because the heavier car will get progressively slower in the corners, without gaining the ability to accelerate any harder down the straights. True speed (and time) is lost in the corners, not on the straights. With the exception of a very long straight, on a track, a car will spend MORE time in the corners and braking zones than on the straights. Period. The RX-8 rules the corners and the braking zones.
Speedsoure RX-8, ST-class, 3-time Champions, any questions? BTW, didn't Speedsource go to VIR and WIN a race one year? I forget...
An RX-8 with an improved suspension, lighter wheels, and better tires than stock will obliterate a stock Z (the stock Z comes with better and wider tires than the RX-8) on most tracks, while selling for less money even with the modifications! Sure you can upgrade the Z too, but still, if we're talking dollars-to-performance, the Z starts out in the hole. It isn't the fastest in its price-range, it isn't the best handling, but it is a solid start. Nissan aimed for the 911, and fell short. My Base 6MT was $25,800 before taxes, and before rebates. A 350Z starts around $28,000 before taxes, and doesn't have any rebates. That sort of difference buys a LOT of goodies.
A new Corvette IS a fancy fiberglass go-cart for the street, with a power-to-weight ratio to match! It's an unfair fight to say that a 5.7 liter, 400-HP car with perfect front/rear balance and very sticky/wide stock tires is faster than an RX-8. It's also faster than 95% of the other vehicles in the world, from any era. I can also drive a nice RX-8 and a new pickup truck for the cost of one Corvette! Again, for price-vs-performance, the RX-8 is a very good value.
09-07-2007 | 05:00 PM
#27
I have Traqmate GPS data from my RX-8 and a 997 Porshe at PIR in Seatle, he had stickier tires...mine were a bit wider all around. I think we are comparable drivers......He gained on me bad on the straights...was a dead even in the corners....and I out-braked his *** bad....we were less than 1/2 sec different in laptimes
Not bad for about 1/2 the price
Not bad for about 1/2 the price
09-07-2007 | 11:12 PM
#29
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There's only so much one can do with a high track out speed coming out of a type 1 turn. HP makes up for it at a certain point and that point isn't too hard to surpass. This is why a good exit speed out of a type 1 turn on to a long straight is essential in Spec. racing, where hp is "equal" amongst cars.
As far as the actual data, the exit speeds are nearly the same out of the slow corner. The sector times were set from the start of the acceleration point to right before the braking zone. It was a simple acceleration test to show the time difference, not to knock on anybody.
You can dive into the corner faster than other cars because you are down 10-20mph compare to other cars. Miatas barely have to use the brakes in a lot of big tracks, but they are also going 30-40mph slower!!!
You are comparing race cars to cars you drive on the street? Oh boy, that's like saying all street Peugoats are fast like the rally 206.
09-08-2007 | 09:30 PM
#31
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From: Seattle, WA
I have Traqmate GPS data from my RX-8 and a 997 Porshe at PIR in Seatle, he had stickier tires...mine were a bit wider all around. I think we are comparable drivers......He gained on me bad on the straights...was a dead even in the corners....and I out-braked his *** bad....we were less than 1/2 sec different in laptimes
Not bad for about 1/2 the price
Not bad for about 1/2 the price
09-09-2007 | 04:45 PM
#35
I was talking about the 997 earlier and F*&Ked upAnd I think I'm a better driver
09-09-2007 | 05:35 PM
#37
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On my favorite road that I know like the back of my hand with a stock Miata, I once beat a supercharged 993 driven by a guy who later co-drove to a Daytona 24 win and had never seen the road before. So HP doesn't matter, it turns out.
09-09-2007 | 05:42 PM
#39
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09-09-2007 | 07:12 PM
#41
good figures for that part of the track and it is interesting. good example of data collection. like a track mate etc. every car has weakness's and strengths. One thing is the Z and the vette dont have back doors or much of a trunk!
olddragger
olddragger
09-09-2007 | 08:44 PM
#42
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From: Northern Virginia
Excellent thread jack. Loved the elevation diagram you posted.
I used to go to the Glen, as a spectator, in the 1960s. From 1966 through 1970 I went to just about everything from SCCA regionals on up. That was the original 2.3 mile course, where the pits were on the short straight at the bottom. The last corner - "The 90" - was lots of fun to watch. It had quite a crown, so getting a little far outside could get spectacular. Last time I was there was for the 1971 USGP, the first year of the modified course with the pits moved and the back straight (now front, I guess) munged.
Watching in the esses, which I think are pretty much the same shape today, was great because power and torque really showed. Something cool was that the pavement changed slightly - just a break in the grading - at the top of the hill, in the transition at the exit of the lleft hander. Fun watching the better drivers anticipate how they'd hop sideways when they hit that, and work out a fast line.
Still have a vivid memory of Parnelli Jones, in a Trans-Am Mustang, threading his way past a gaggle of smaller cars in the "Fast Bend," deviating from his ideal line by an inch or two here and there to do it. And the look on a road race snob friend when he realized just what an Indy car driver was like.
Ken
I used to go to the Glen, as a spectator, in the 1960s. From 1966 through 1970 I went to just about everything from SCCA regionals on up. That was the original 2.3 mile course, where the pits were on the short straight at the bottom. The last corner - "The 90" - was lots of fun to watch. It had quite a crown, so getting a little far outside could get spectacular. Last time I was there was for the 1971 USGP, the first year of the modified course with the pits moved and the back straight (now front, I guess) munged.
Watching in the esses, which I think are pretty much the same shape today, was great because power and torque really showed. Something cool was that the pavement changed slightly - just a break in the grading - at the top of the hill, in the transition at the exit of the lleft hander. Fun watching the better drivers anticipate how they'd hop sideways when they hit that, and work out a fast line.
Still have a vivid memory of Parnelli Jones, in a Trans-Am Mustang, threading his way past a gaggle of smaller cars in the "Fast Bend," deviating from his ideal line by an inch or two here and there to do it. And the look on a road race snob friend when he realized just what an Indy car driver was like.
Ken
09-09-2007 | 08:56 PM
#43
He's as bad as Can
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,309
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From: Manchester, NJ
You should like the full session videos I also have from the Glen.
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/couple-laps-glenn-89534/
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/i-owned-formula-1-car-monday-vid-99279/
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/couple-laps-glenn-89534/
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/i-owned-formula-1-car-monday-vid-99279/
09-09-2007 | 11:56 PM
#44
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From: Northern Virginia
Those are great. As much as the track has changed, I can see some of the spots I used to watch from. Blocked off by Armco and chain link now, where it used to be just snow fence.
I like the one with the F1 car. Did you know that was in the group?
Ken
I like the one with the F1 car. Did you know that was in the group?
Ken
09-10-2007 | 12:35 AM
#45
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No, actually I switched cars and drove the Porsche back down the hill. Tires weren't as good as the Miata's. And I still knew the road a lot better.
I just felt left out and wanted to throw in my own inane bench racing thread jack. I like this one better than the time I blew the doors off a turbocharged E36 M3 on race tires with the same stock Miata at Streets of Willow. I still respect and like the Porsche guy. The BMW guy was just a tool.
I just felt left out and wanted to throw in my own inane bench racing thread jack. I like this one better than the time I blew the doors off a turbocharged E36 M3 on race tires with the same stock Miata at Streets of Willow. I still respect and like the Porsche guy. The BMW guy was just a tool.
Last edited by SolarYellow510; 09-10-2007 at 12:38 AM.
09-10-2007 | 09:42 PM
#46
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From: Home of the NIMBYs
IIRC if we want to consider a close sample set, the 8 does really well in the Rolex GT series hanging with the 911 GT3. The 350z being the typical porker are usually the back markers. Here look...
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=839
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=953
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=839
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=953
The Porsche 997's however, are actually Porsche 997's (some food for thought).
09-11-2007 | 10:17 PM
#48
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IIRC if we want to consider a close sample set, the 8 does really well in the Rolex GT series hanging with the 911 GT3. The 350z being the typical porker are usually the back markers. Here look...
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=839
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=953
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=839
http://grand-am.com/Events/SessionRe...?SessionID=953
