GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Tockico sells optional extension cables which allow you to adjust the rear dampers without disassembling the rear suspension. The cables (which can be seen on Racing Beat's site) appear to screw onto the top of the dampers, and can be fed into the trunk through a hole drilled in the trunk liner, thus allowing you to adjust the dampers without disassembling the rear suspension.

It appears that drilling the hole is legal (assuming it doesn't go through a steel body panel) but I'm wondering about the legality of the cables themselves. I'm assuming it would be difficult to remove them before runs, and I'd (obviously) prefer to leave them on so that adjustments can be made between runs.

Anybody know if these would be legal in stock class?

And yes, I'm well aware that most autocrossers would rather run Konis. I'd run Konis too if I could adjust the rears easily, but since you can't, I'm seriously considering the Tokicos. I ran Illuminas on my Miata and I think they are far better than most people realize.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

100% legal.

Sparky

I not aware of any info out there that indicates how the Tockico performs compared to the koni. Could be great. Guess we'll see.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

That would be because only street racers run crap like that.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Oooh! Ouch!

I recall showing Andy Hollis a dyno graph of my Illuminas at a Evo dial-in event, and he initially thought they were from a higher-end shock. Yes, once he looked at the numbers he realized the "knee" wasn't as far to the left as you would expect with custom Konis or Penskes, etc. But still, the Illuminas (on the Miata anyway) had some nice curves:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/292195/2

Yes, the Tokicos adjust the compression along with rebound, but not by much and whether that's a good thing or bad thing is probably more course dependent than anything else(although it's not good when used with stiffer springs).

Now, at the other end of the spectrum, I find myself thinking about Penskes. No, I'm probably not a good enough driver to capatalize on all the benefits of such a damper, and yes, it's a bit schitzophrenic to jump from Tokicos to Penskes, but hey I can't help it.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I can understand putting them on the rear so you can adjust..... You have no reason not to use Koni fronts.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Hah! Interesting idea.

I actually thought about buying a set of each, dynoing them, and selling the set I didn't want. Of course, that assumes I could pick a "winner" from a dyno graph, but something tells me it's not quite that easy.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Good luck with that.

Razz1

But is it really a good idea to run two different manufacturers for front and rear shocks?

They spend alot of research and design to complement their own shock. Not a different manufacturers.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

It might work, but as you say, it's probably not a good idea. I'd be most concerned about different compresion damping curves giving different grip levels. But, I suppose this would be one way to determine which is faster. With Koni fronts & Tokico rears, if the car oversteers, put the konis on the back. If it understeers, put the Tokicos on the front.

Probably much more reliable way to make a choice than looking at dyno curves.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

LOL

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

And why is that funny?

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Do you think your spring rates, wheel rates are near the same or for that matter each end of the car does the same job...

2003 ESP natl champ had Penske rears and Moton fronts. The next year he got a clue as to how much money he wasted and won FS on a set of off the shelf konis.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

No, of course the wheel rates are different front to rear. I'm not sure why this is relevant - I'm sure both Tokico and Koni valve their front and rear dampers to match the spring rates & masses of the front and rear suspension.

I'm still not sure what your point was, however. Mixing two brands of custom valved dampers isn't a good example in this case, as a good driver/tuner would know how to set the damping curves up so that they work well together. Throwing two brands together with off the shef valving seems more risky, but then you don't know until you try, I suppose.

Yes, if I'm not mistaken jackets have been won on stock Konis more than once. I've read the some of the debates over $$$ shocks. It's easy to get carried away with this stuff, and there is very little published data on how much of a difference it really makes (at least that I've been able to find). I suspect they are more valuable in SP and above classes, where you can start to tune out the compliance of the stock suspension bushings, but that's just a guess.

It would be interesting to ask Casey (the competitor you cite above) if he really felt the custom dampers were a waste of money in his ESP car.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

it's not worth the time required to explain, Grasshopper

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Ah, the classic TeamRX8 "I know more than you but I'm not going to prove it" response.

I'm not sure if your initial post was a jab and Andy or I, but Andy has gained the respect of many people in the autocross community, and his posts are generally thoughtful, informative, (normally) NOT condescending. You appear to have a lot to offer, but steadfastly refuse to do so. Why not try to bring the level of sophistication up on this board, instead of simply deriding it’s contributors?

Next I'm sure you will say it was a jab at me. Whatever.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Casey has not won ESP or FS.... That would be Dave Schotz.

Put whatever shock on your car that makes you happy.... Just don't look to the rest of us to make you feel warm and fuzzy about it.

What is it about the NW region that makes you guy race on the shock dyno, first Fast Mike and now you.... Not going to win anything on the shock dyno. So stop talking about how good those dyno curves are, put the shocks on and beat us down.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I am sure it has more to do with Andy than you.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Fair enough.

My interest in a shock dyno stems from the "black magic" aura surrounding dampers, particularly in autocross circles. I'm just trying to shed some objective criteria on shock choice - people swear by Konis but then it never gets taken much beyond that. I'd like to know why.

Further, if you really want to get those last tenths of a second, dampers are considered critical (by most people, anyway) and you need to know what makes a good setup for you, your car, and your courses.

I feel that the best way to do this is to obtain dyno curves of whatever damper you choose to start with as a baseline, and then, as you gain an understanding of the vehicle's dynamics, you can begin to refine those curves to make improvements. This assumes you can rebuild your dampers, which is where Penskes come in. Of course, you can also just call Koni and have them convert the dampers to DAs with autocross-specific valving, and that's a great start, but what if you want to go beyond their initial suggestion?

On his Miata, Mike went the Bilstein route (non adjustable) and I respect anyone who is willing to take a methodological approach to tuning their car. It's not easy but to do - you need lots of testing backed up by a good understanding on how to adjust the "*****" at your disposal. This is where the shock dyno comes in - it gives insight into how different valving strategies affect the performance of the car (when coupled with testing of course).

This is nothing new - it's common practice in road racing. I'm lucky enough to have an experienced racer/mechanical engineer/damper expert in my area and I plan to take advantage of these services.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Yeah those have worked great for him.... Did not even go to natls, I guess because getting whooped by Kevin and co every weekend showed him.

The 2005 SS champ reports that his $4k custom konis are about 3-4 tenths quicker than stock shocks. Granted the 04 Z06 shocks a very good, but I think you get the point.

So do you feel you are within a few tenths of the fast guys and should be going down this road? Please dont tell me how close you are to FM the few times he drove the 8, how close are you to Joe or Ron's BS times.

Cito

My question is whether it would be possible to devise a similar remote adjustment setup for the Konis. Since I suck as a driver anyway (i.e., I am going to lose more time because I can't drive than I would because the Tokicos are slower than the Konis), the ease of adjustability provided by the cables might be enough to swing it over to the Tokicos. But, if it were possible to devise a similar cable for the Konis, that certainly would be useful to all of us that don't have the jack to spend on custom Konis or Penskes.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

No, probably not right now. I don't have any false expectations that I have a realistic shot at a jacket my first time to Nats. I can't give you any concrete data, since I've not run in a class-competive car yet. But I do think if play my cards right this year I have a shot at a trophy.

So, Penskes would be an indulgence right now and I probably won't spend the money. But, whatever dampers I do start with, I'm going to have the dynoed so that I have a baseline - something to build off of for next year if I decide to continue. This is why I like the Tokicos - I can gain an understanding as to how both the front and the rear respond to damping changes.

If, at nats, I have my *** handed to me on a plate, then I'll probably go back to fiddling with my Miata in SM2 and just have fun locally. It's all good.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

I was wondering about this as well. I'm sure it's possible, but it would take a certain amount of fabrication, which, depending on your skills and resources, could either be cheap or expensive.

And, we don't know yet if the Tokicos are slower than the Konis. If custom Konis only get .3-.4 seconds over regular Konis (or good OEM dampers) then I have a hard time believing the difference between stock Konis and Tokicos is any more.

Imp

That was true for nationals ever since they ran at bumpy surfaces.

This year is something quite new... no high frequency bumps, new ashphalt.

Many people have had their shocks tuned so when they get to nationals, they can take the abuse of the many harsh bumps/ledges on the course. '06 is a whole new ballgame require much less sophistication in suspension since there should be little to no high frequency damping needed.

This year is going to be very interesting to watch car set-up wise.

I'm not advocating that a good spension is going to be worthless at nats.. but there's less guess work needed to control your car/suspension.

--kC

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

You wont have to wait that long.... See you in Packwood.
just kidding.

I just don't understand why you would want to waste the time and money when every RX8 at natls in the trophy spots was on konis..... Most of them on stock konis. Don't be a FM wannabe and try to find some secret weapon. You will waste all your time looking for that prefect part/car like he does and then get a beat down anyway. If he would have stopped fxxking around last year and just drove the RX8 he might have had a shot at something.