SolarYellow510

I found myself about to threadjack the SoCal Autocross thread, and that wouldn't be nice, so I started a new one.

I'm interested in reading some thoughts on track days/time trial vs. autocross. This is meant to be a friendly, philosophical discussion. Because people are way more interesting than cars, in the end, I'm curious what makes different people tick. Why do you do what you do? Is it what you want to do, or do you have economic reasons for not doing something else?

My hope is that we can avoid a flame war, but have people weigh in with their thoughts. Nobody is right or wrong (well, someone usually says something totally stupid eventually, but no need for this thread to cross that bridge until we get there). It's just to explore what's right for you.

Over in the SoCal Autocross thread, they were complaining about the ridiculous cost of seat time at an SCCA autocross. I said:

I appreciate the focus of autocross, and the fact that it becomes truly pointless if you aren't doing everything possible to get your time down. Way cooler than all the clueless douches who get in the way just driving poorly at many track days.

At the same time, I see my biggest adversary as my own tendency to suck. Until I believe I have overcome that, I don't see the point in measuring myself against others. I mean, what if they all suck, and I just suck a little less? I would still suck. And the best way to overcome it is focused seat time. Which makes cost-effective seat time a good thing. The focus isn't there waiting for me at the track, I have to bring it with me.

I haven't gotten into the area of time trials, which brings the competitive element to the track, with less chance of someone trying to divebomb a corner and late braking into your door.

Let's have some fun!

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

You need to change your title... A track day and time trial are not the same thing. A time trial is still a race with a winner, but just like an autocross it is not wheel to wheel like road racing.

mwood

I started with road racing (mostly vintage cars, some club), then did open track and started autocrossing in 2005. I will do a track day or vintage race once in a while, when I'm offered the chance (o.p.c. = other people's cars).

Vintage was a blast, with good competition, lots of track time and very cool cars and people. Autocross has been a blast, with heavy competition, little track time and very cool cars and people. Open track was fun, but no competition, almost too much track time (got bored..."man, we're going out again?") and very cool cars and people.

As far as costs go, autocross is the cheapest, both in terms of parts/tires and, more importantly, TIME. What really got me out of vintage racing was the amount of time I was spending working on the cars and then every event was at least a three day commitment.

Once my kids are in college, though, I plan on going club racing, either NASA or SCCA. The time trial events also sound interesting, but if I'm making that type of set up and time commitment, I'd prefer to race wheel to wheel again.

SolarYellow510

Not exactly the same, but NASA TT is essentially the highest level of HPDE run group. Which leads me to ask, have you done much with TT? If so, why do you prefer to focus on Solo?

I'm being really careful in planning mods to not do something stupid WRT NASA TT rules, but I haven't even looked up SoloII class rules. For me, it still comes back to the speeds, driving on a track versus driving around cones, and the seat time per dollar. Here in SoCal, I'm friends with guys like Gary Thomason and Ken Motonishi, but not from meeting them at autocrosses. Just because of my past, I have even more friends at any given NASA event.

There's also the fact that I have the machine building gene. I have a compulsion to build a more perfect machine (car, airplane, whatever), whether it's good for me or not. Running 285s on 8-in. wheels is incredibly inelegant to me.

I like the points system in TT rules, because so many combinations are possible. I'll have to really understand what matters, and maybe experiment and learn some things. Will 275 Hoosiers on my 10.5-in. wheels and anti-roll bars work with stock dampers, or would I be better off with less sticky tires that free up points to have a more thoroughly tuned suspension? Could it come down to a hair-splitting result that Hoosiers could be faster, but a better-balanced car is easier to drive quickly consistently, and more fun overall?

On tracks vs. autocross courses, I can also see the point that an autocross course is different every time, so you have to figure it out in just a few runs, whereas most tracks change only subtly if at all. There's a cognitive aspect there that's appealing.

SouthFL

First things first. Are you qualified to run in TT? If not, you have about a season and a half (or two) of HPDE 1,2,3/4 to get to race school.

SolarYellow510

I haven't run a lot with NASA, but I'm far from a noob. My plan isn't to debate experience and skill on the internet.

Spin9k

I agree with what everone else said. But for me, after my first 6 minute day of autocrossing combined with 6 hrs standing there in the sun 'working'... well I don't like sun that much.

In HPDE's I compete with my own Traqmate results through each and every corner from previous runs/days/yrs and enjoy the pursuit of (and hopeful improvement towards) perfection in both my own driving skill and tuning of the car to my driving pleasure and improved lap time....just the engineer/perfectionist thing in me.

Although as you say there is no official competition in an HPDE, being in upper groups means most peps are both competitive and car nonjudgemental. So usually I end up pairing up with a few kindred peps with similar car/driver track times and we have it out in our own personal 'race' lap after glorius lap. You can't get too tired of pushing the envelope that way, and it's great for between session and after track , , and unofficial ing!

But that's just me.

tomsn16

Running 285s on 8-in. wheels is incredibly inelegant to me.

Whoaa Nellie.....Mike and I have been called many things but "inelegant"!!!!!

SolarYellow510

I have done skidpad tests on another vehicle, where we over-tired a wheel. With 18x10.5 wheels, we tried 295/30-18 and 315/30-18. The tire temperatures were more even with the wider tires, but the lowest one was higher than the highest temperature with the 295s. With the wider tires, the tires were making more noise and the car was going slower. So even beyond saying you should have a wide enough wheel to support the rubber you're using, it may be that using a narrower tire on the wheel you have could actually be better.

My friend who used to work for Yokohama was pssd that he couldn't stop guys with EVOs from putting 255s on 8-in. stock wheels.

Have to test to know for sure, of course, and different models of tire may tolerate inadequate support from their wheels differently. In the GRM test a few months ago, once they got the BFG on the wheel, the sidewall was all wrinkly. Other tires seem to work OK.

SouthFL

I'm with Spin.

I tried AutoX and really didn't like the "working" and waiting aspect of it. I'm there to run my car, not pick up cones.

HPDE may not be competition versus other cars, but it is competitive in that you're always searching to improve your skill to make yourself faster.

TT, being non wheel to wheel, is still a step above HPDE, in that you're really pushing the car and yourself to its limits. I don't like seeing guys running TT in cars that aren't fully track prepped in terms of safety, but I see it all the time- guys running TT with only harness bars and such. I run HPDE 3 out of choice because my car is a street car and HPDE 4 is full of race cars. I'm eligible to run in 4 and TT, but I'm still only with a couple years of seat time, so I'm hanging back, learning as much as I can before stepping up. When I do, it will be with the proper equipment (I'll get around to fixing my 944 race car someday).

I've seen AutoX guys come to track days (for their first time) and run well due to their sense of car control. The skills transition from one to the other. Each is its own thing however.

Again, this argument is all moot (AutoX vs. TT), since everyone can go and participate in AutoX, but not everyone can go and run in TT, unless qualified.

imput1234

iTrader: (6)

I think that Track days are a lot better than autocross (except for the $$$). Autocross is great, but one thing I do not like is, only 5minutes of driving time, and 2hours of working in HOT sun.

Lily03

idk i've driven an 8 both on a autoX course and just on a straight road for some fun.

autoX (i drove my friends 8) and personally from my experience i think that the 8 is a lil too torquey in a autoX course and the horsepower lacks. **now maybe its just different pending on what your autoX course is set up like. but the my SCCA group, our courses are a work out. they are very tight and you've always gotta be ontop of your driving. now i've been at other courses that were more open, but because i don't own an 8 i couldn't drive one on a more open course to see if there was a difference.

and when i was on a straight road just playing around in my bf's 8 i felt the horsepower and by no means did it seem like the torque felt more apparent to me then the horsepower. and trust me i got on his 8 a few times, and i love the power don't get me wrong just not sure why there is such a difference.

is it just me or is that how the 8's really are on the two different tracks? jw.





i mean i autoX, quarter mile drag, and play on the streets (sometimes) with my OZ Rally and i've never really noticed torque or horsepower and vise versa.

Red Devil

Couldn't have written it any better.

Miatamoto

Not only do I like the ultra competitiveness of autocross, I love the challenge of seeing a course and only getting a few chances to be super fast.

When I do get to track days, which isn't often, I usually don't have a problem running just as fast as the people that have been there many times in the similar cars. I also tend to get bored by the end of the sessions, but I think switching to time trials vs. HPDEs would change that for me.

Autocross also allows you to push the car to the full 10/10ths the majority of the time. Trying to hang on to that knife edge of adhesion and stepping over it when you want to. If you're smart, you're not going to get too close to that during a HPDE.

Miatamoto

I guess another benefit is that we tend to have long, high-speed autocrosses in my area quite often. Triple digit speeds and 1.5 mile courses with 8 runs in a day.

Cooper47

I miss those days.......Now when I autocross it's only with SCCA and they're very limited with course design and you hardly ever get more then 3 runs. Still, it's real competition with set rules and a clear winner at the end of the day. That's pretty cool.....

To me, track days are either fairly boring or really scary. I haven't had many experiences in between but that could just be who I have been running them with.....It's amazing who'll they'll let out on those wide open tracks. There's no doubt the fact you get more seat time and you don't have to work part of the day is a major advantage to running at a real track. Still, the consequences can be fairly high for making a mistake and I just don't like thinking about that stuff when I'm trying to have fun.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

be serious, I never saw triple digit speeds for the two years I was there, the BMW group gets up into the high double digit speeds, that's about it

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

i've done plenty of both autox and track days/hpde's

for me, it came down to what's more meaningful to me, the thrill/pressure of competition, or being able to focus internally on myself and becoming a better all around driver, while still having fun.

i decided on the latter and figured getting more seat time per dollar to improve myself is more important than getting a little trophy and bragging rights at the end of an autox season.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

and no, i have no aspirations on going to TT's in the 8, at least not in my daily driver. If i want to go TT i would want a dedicated track only car...

Miatamoto

Fourth gear in my 97 M3 puts it right there.

Never happened in the little Miata though.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

my experience is that most people guess at their speed on the optimistic side, I'm guilty of it myself

you'd have to be WOT in 4th for quite a ways before hitting triple digit speeds in an E36 M3

mwood

And speedometers are just as optimistic, in many cases...last year at the AAS Larry Park Memorial event, I was hitting an indicated 109mph in the modified C6 I was given a drive in...real, GPS based speed was 101mph...on that same course, the fastest cars were hitting a real 112-114mph.

But, speed isn't the whole deal, obviously...nothing is more boring than going down the long straight at Thunderhill at 130...of course, when you have to start thinking about the very fast turn one, things do get more interesting...

Miatamoto

Well considering hitting the rev limiter in 3rd in that car puts you around 99 mph I think your pretty much there already.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I came up with 90 mph actual for a 96+ 3.2 (1.66:1 3rd gear, 3.23 R&P)

and that's assuming you don't lose anything in the shift or don't short shift

Razz1

I prefer HDPE over Autox due to the return on Investment.

6 minutes of track time over 8 hours and working 2 1/2 or more hours is not my thing.

Plus I like planning. You have time to think and plan ahead on a known course.

Compete, there are several ways to compete in HDPE. The best copetition is yourself. Compete for consistency is one way.

And it sure beats the hell out of getting a tickect fotr 80 in a 65 zone and paying 325 to 375 per ticket.

Much cheaper, safer and fun on the track.

So, go fast on street and get tickets or accidents or go to the track for less money.