MoodDude

I don't mean to argue with you TA2 - so you may be lucky with your set up and got close to 50-50 cross weights. But if you don't corner weight it properly - you will never know. So lets agree to disagree.

I think Silver's write up is right on, and the number one thing is if you are happy the way the car performes, I guess that is all that is important. I am just trying to give people some insite with modification and what it takes to make them work correctly.

I am just a little confussed - the number one reason to buy coilovers vs dampners and springs is so that you can get your weights right so you can get that incremental performance gain. Since in Silvers write up he could of got what he is looking for in performance with a lot less money.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

AInt it great to be in the family!
Mood--you are never a pest man--when you are in a family it is called a nag-----lol
I'm a nag also--about multiple things--proper gear ratios, wgt visosity of our oil, engine fluid temps, pre mix and so on. But that is what a family is for--so dont stop. You know family will not listen to it's members but they will listen to anything outside the family--and thats weird.
Corner weights are more important when they are really off from the factory. The 8 owners are lucky that we have a really well balanced chassies as oem. Suspension changes have to be taken seriously --you are obsolutely correct--it has to be a balanced setup. you certainly can have too stiff springs for the rollbars, too soft shocks for the springs to small rollbar for the springs etc etc etc.alignment specs, tire pressures and suspenion components all have to work together---and the optimal ones are differant for every track and driver! Heck if you have a right handed turn dominate track then the suspenison is tuned specific for that with the alignments and corner weight settings.
Hey Torque--you forgot one component----the driver! I wish i could "tune " my driver--maybe new glasses.
olddragger

SilverEIGHT

I don't dissagree one bit! I toyed with the alternative of less money but I understand the Tein is a better QUALITY alternative and as I stated in a post before I purchased them, I prefer to wait for better quality instead of the less expensive route. I was lucky to find a not quite so expensive/quality route and that is why I bought them.

TorqueAholic

To your Point Mood, we will find out. The reason I spent the extra money and bought the adjustable ride height lower control arms is precisely to allow me experimenting with corner weights.

Much like Silver, while I was into it and spending the money might as well spend a little bit more and get the stuff that will allow me to grow into it and perfect the setup further without replacing parts.

Much like Silver also, I reached my limit on how time / money I was willing to spend this year and I will save the rest of the cool stuff for next year.


All I am saying is don't take everything you hear / read for absolutes than repeat it as gospel. My comment on reading magazines for 30 + years was meant to say (between the lines): a lot of times they too are full of sh%t.

You have to do it for yourself and / or get a credible party measure it (Like I did) to separate the sh%t from reality.

MoodDude

I am telling you from my experience on my coilovers, and it agrees with all the write ups. I don't believe everything I read or hear, my Master degree in Mechanical Engineer helps me to see what could work and what is BS. But, I also don't believe in re-invinting the wheel. So arguing with my experience and the data seems pointless - so I am done.

TorqueAholic

Hey Mood, no offense intended. At the end of the day we 're really not that far apart.

This forum wouldn't be any fun if we did not have a lively discussion every once in a while..

SilverEIGHT

Yea and this just happens to be a good one!

MoodDude

Another good one from TA.

Stop&TurnFreak

Guys,

You all make some good and interesting points. I would agree with all that was said here, and I would add that until you get to advanced or higher in driving, you will not see the improvements (in CONSISTENT laptimes) until you are at this caliber. You may get flashes of brillance, but it takes a skilled hand to consistently extract those extra tenths.

Having done my Evo the same as you guys in a controlled approach, meaning I added suspension power, and brake all in stages, with the purpose of staying balanced, which is crucial to a car at the limit on a road course. Too much power without grip equals dirt, and same for too much power with no brake. Your cars, and my old car, are pretty much the best 'off showroom floor' for handling in this price range. Great balance, and poise, with strong brakes and little or no fade in any aspect of performance on track (to a point). My Evo went a 1:54 bone stock at CMP, you don't get much better than that out of the box. Jon K, mr evo, went a 1:53:60 in a stock Evo at One Lap two years ago. And I am not sure who it is, but there is some cat in a lightly modded RX8 running 1:48's at Road A. So, obviously, there is ALOT of performance to be wrung from these machines, stock.

Also, corner-weighting has two purposes, one, to match what came from the factory with regard to balance and stance, OR to setup the car for the track you are at. For instance, at Road Atlanta, I added a ton of cross weight to get the car through 12 as free as possible, which also helped in 6,7,1, and any other right handed corner. HOwever, it hurt the car through 5 (especially), and some through the downhill sections. However, overall, I was able to lap the car in the top 3 in Time Trials all day, without the extra 100whp the others had.

Also, TA2, with regard to artsy lines, 99% of the time you are dead on, flat straight and hard, is always better than 'artsy', however, there was a track I used to race on where this would hurt you. The example is this, the track had a set of S turns, with another hard left onto a long straight. The tendency was too shoot from the S's and drive straight to the left, and hook and hold. However, if you didn't float out, the suspension would be in such a bind, it wouldn't unload till 50ft past the left hander, which killed the straight-away speed. Also, this straight was the longest we had, so being 10mph slower would severely impair your ability to pass or hold off traffic.

So, in a few instances, swinging wide and allowing time for the suspension to unload and reload is a good thing.

However, again, all good points. Pretty soon you gys will be wishing your cars were stock, and you could forget about all this modding stuff and trying to figure how is this spring / shock going to work with this sway and those tires.

My next car is sitting at the dealership (if it isn't sold yet). TA2, welcome me back to the Mustang world. I ditched the Busa(yeah I soiled myself), and am talking aabout an 04 Cobra. No mods, just R compounds, venting on brakes, and a cage. We will see, I have asked James (CRMC) to tell me who there handles CRMC discount, and I am goign to see if I can swing it.

SilverEIGHT

I'll take one!

Marietta 8

I am gonna chime in here and say that the TEIN's are damn near right out of the box as far as corner weights go. I am not going to a lot of trouble to prove it any time soon but the next time I borrow the chassis scales I will weigh my car again and post the results.

Knowing the editor of ASSroots magazine, I don't hold a lot of stock in some of the stuff they put out. Read anything by Carroll Smith if you want good, honest, proven info on set up. Keep in mind that corner balancing must be done with the car in the condition it will be driven in and it is a compromise as the chassis will change as fuel is consumed and track conditions change.

Turkey's gone, switching to Ham.

Stop&TurnFreak

What he said.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

ok --I like pecan pie-----Yummmmmmm!

Just for a conversation----- here are my weights one time when i was at Roebling(Sept /05. This is without my smaller tires and rims--this is with the 18's on-remember I lost about 8lbs a corner when I swapped to my 17's. i forgot how much gas i had but this is with driver if i remember correctly. I did have the koni's/teins springs and rb bars. all non adjustable as far as height.
LF 857 RF 797
LR 771 RR 732
cross weights are:
1589 and 1568
cross weights off by 21 lbs----- 2 sacks of taters would take care of that.
total weight 2972
my car color is Red and everyone knows that is a lighter in weight.!
olddragger

SilverEIGHT

What do you guys use to keep records in. Is there a standard record book with specifice set-up fields, a computer program or single sheets? Sure would make it eaiser. I'd like to keep things like temps, tire pressure, track conditions, alignment, Tein settings, lap times etc.

Marietta 8

I have a whole bunch of forms and checklists that you can copy if you like or you can try and snag a copy of "Track Data" by Craig S. Pearce. I dont know if it is still in print but if not you can have a look through mine and copy the pages you like.

SilverEIGHT

Nice! Thanks Chaz

Maybe I'll put a package together with the GA RX-8 Club as a header and make it available to our group. I can make it a PDF and post it for everyone to print as they need.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

scraps of paper in my billfold.
OD

SilverEIGHT

I will have a Palm version since I always cary my PDA. I can make it a database, transferrable to the computer.... yea, that's tha ticket!

Marietta 8

Back on topic, check out Jim Daniels in-car lap record at Barber in a spec miata. It can be seen at www.specmiatavideos.com. Just damn!

MoodDude

OD - you made a great point - your car come stock from the factory with a great set up. If you change the set up, you need to make sure it is set up properly or else you risk on making your handling worse than factory.

S&TF has gone a step further and started to tune his car for a particular track.
In actual racing people will tune there cars to be able to go the fastest in the most likely place on track to pass someone and not nessaciarly to have the fastest lap, since in racing it is who finishes first - not who has the best lap time!
This is why I love this sport - there is so much science and engineering that can be applied and tested!

SilverEIGHT

Nice vids Charlie:
Jim Danials - Barber Lap Record
Todd Buras - Barber

SilverEIGHT

Can't seem to find the pub. I'd like to dig into yours sometime.

TorqueAholic

On this one I am 100% with you. That plus the fact that I am a certified Adrenaline junkie.

Amazing SM (Or is that S&M?!) videos, man that guy does not slow down much for the corners.

Keeping with the videos theme here is what I got:

The first one is a little more entertaining as it contains the more exciting moments where I get passed or pass and a few chases.

It gives you a glimpse of what's happening in my car and in my head as I circulate the track.

Barber Passes

This one is a little more academic as it contains my quicker laps with mostly clean track and few passes. You might notice that I was a bit conservative around the carousel and the hairpin and that was on purpose to save my tires and get a few more weekends out of them.

I think I might be able to dip into the 1:40's next time with a couple changes: perhaps a bit wider around the carousel (Turns 2-3) and perhaps a bit tighter around the hairpin (5, 5A, 5C) and a couple of tires be darned Banzai! laps..

Comments are welcome!

Here are the faster laps:

Barber Quicker Laps

Stop&TurnFreak

Torque, your car looks great on-track. I can't find anything I would do to improve it based on your inputs in-car. Wow, I am amazed, that has got to be one of the best handling stangs I have ever seen. Good input, good response, the suspension doesn't wash, it doesn't unsettle under-power, even with the gear, GREAT JOB!.

STF

SilverEIGHT

Ah Ha! So, the Elise is the one that tore up the grass at 13. Fun stuff TA2.