vette6autox

Just to make sure the stories are straight: David Leonard(Yellow ZO6) instructor of Doyal Marks(Black ZO6). David was riding in Doyal’s car when Doyal wrecked his own car. Doyal got 2 off before the kink and that aimed him wrong through the kink and then he wrecked. I really don’t know where the rumor started that the student was driving the instructor’s car?

About 14A
David Leonard takes the same line I do, and posted, not counting the Radicals, the 4th fastest time during the Enduro and he was in the 3rd slowest class. In other words he posted a faster lap time than just about everyone in the race even though he was 3 classes down driving a ZO6 with no ABS. David said he made several passes in 14A in the race because people might as well be going pit in and then deciding to stay on track. The guy in the gold mustang is a real piece of work! The cars he’s running up on are cars that were in MY way, ESPECIALLY the new black Porsche, she had a line of cars stacked up behind her at every turn, I went pit in twice when I came up behind her train. I don’t think anyone that watched that video would argue that the guy in the Silver ZO6 was driving like it was a cool down lap too, he was more off line through that entire section than gold mustang guy! Heck, David said Doyal made a textbook pass on someone going up in the middle of nowhere like that. Doyal didn’t even realize the guy was intending on staying on course, he thought he was going pit in, Doyal was so much faster through 14A that the other guy never even had to check up, Doyal went mid track, inside the guy, and right on through. Most schools teach that high line because it’s “safer”, you don’t have to know how to trail brake but my take is, if you’re going to practice a new technique on a track, do it where speeds are slower AND there is plenty of run off, both are available in 14A. I’m glad the guy in the gold mustang looks at a weekend rental barge as a benchmark for what’s fast through 14A taking the mid-line, but it’s tough not to notice that the Marcus starts pulling away from him right before the point by on the second part of the video with the Marcus. I don’t think a 180 rwhp barge is going to pull away because it’s got more power would it? Some clubs allow open passing in the instructor/solo groups and when the gold mustang guy gets into this situation/ INSERT ADVERTISEMENT FOR THE JUNE 30TH AND JULY 1ST ALSCCA PDX HERE/ he better keep an eye out turning back onto the track as everyone that takes the faster line goes right on around. To the gold mustang guy, watch some Grand Am and Rolex footage of 14A and then state your opinion. Comparing your video around people that aren’t sure where they should be on the track doesn’t prove much to me. To turn because momentum puts you there is one thing but, as is the case in 14A, to turn left to make a right hand turn just plain doesn’t make sense.

PS, you’re dangerously off line from ½ way through 11 until ½ between 14A and 15, I didn’t see any other parts of the track so I can’t comment there, but based on your run over the tunnel, if you were in a car with some power then you’d be picking up parts after you run off drivers left at the top of the tunnel and spin to hit on the drivers side facing backwards on the inside of the track. I’ve seen that a lot. Be careful gold mustang guy.


This was written by Silver's instructor Robert and this screen name is David Leonard's.

vette6autox

Oh yeah, the post above is referencing post #238.

Robert

TorqueAholic

About the Gearing for the 8 around Barber, I felt that 3rd and 4th worked fine in the 8. Although I don't have as much experience as you guys with the car 3rd gear did not feel like it was off the power band or sagging.

I was rather high on the tach turns 11 - 13 and TA beleives there perhaps time to be gained by staying in 4th.

As for the Golden Stallion, the new gearing is ideal for this track. I only have to use 3rd and 4th gears and I have enough ommph to kick the tail out in pretty much any corner. That means it's basically in the fat part of the power / torque band at all times.

vette6autox

Yeah, sounds fast.

David

SilverEIGHT

SilverEIGHT

This is from Rob Whitener of Roar Racing. My question to him was in reference to what line he takes in the 14 complex.

=============================================

"As for your question, I hate to say this, but the fastest line for you and
your car is the one where YOU are the quickest. Technically, that is a big
sweeping turn and generally speaking the larger the radius of the arc made
by your driving line will allow higher speeds. Therefore, momentum cars
like the RX-8 will be faster on the larger radius outside line. Having said
that you would get killed taking that line in a race, because you always
have to protect your position. So in racing you would be more to the
inside, but trying to keep the line along the widest arc without letting
anyone by.

As for the guys making it two turns and a small straight that works as well,
but is better suited for the higher horsepower and torque cars because the
last turn is the sharpest radius requiring more speed to be scrubbed off to
make the turn. The advantages to that line are the higher entry speed
thereby extending the previous straight away and the fact that the exit of
the turn is down hill for a short distance and then another turn.

All are good lines and in a race you may find yourself using anyone of them
plus others. What determines good in any turn is the one that yields the
highest exit speed. In a race or a DE you have to consider what your car's
strengths are versus the others around you. As you get better, and it
sounds as though you are, you will find that there IS a text book line, but
unless you are out there by yourself, you won't use it.

Rob Whitener"

REALTorque

What's ironic is you have exactly______ (fill in the blank please) sub 1:38 laps at Barber?


Showing a video of you running up on a bunch of slower cars/drivers proves nyet. I can take any line I want thru that turn and run all over that eyesore...so what?

Phlash

Very well stated...........

TrackAddict

Well, I don't want to be a part of a d!ck measuring contest (I may lose).

For me, it felt natural to widen the arc into 14. Thats all. With all this being said and watching the spec miata video, the next time I go to Barber (hopefully for the PDX) I will try out a tighter line. I know I felt more comfortable braking after I straightened out the car a bit. As for the gold mustang guy, he legitimately is quicker than most people in his run groups including many driving more powerful cars. I am sure there are people who do better but there are not many. This has been evidenced repeatedly over the past year. It certainly was true at Barber as well.

And on the d!ck measuring thing... for me, this is about having fun. I get to do something I have always wanted to do. I also get to hang out with good friends, and make new ones. Along the way, I will sharpen some skills, learn new stuff, and instruct people starting out while keeping them safe and wanting to come back out to do it again. I have done all three and will continue to do so. Discussions that are like the ones this is becoming do not contribute positively. I am out of this thread as I do not wish to be a part of it.

REALTorque

Trackaddict
If the dm thing is in reference to my post, you missed the point entirely. The point was that it is useless to compare the lines of entirely different cars/drivers. Many variables can explain why the cars in the video were slower thru the corners, not the least of which is the amount of grip and the skill of the drivers. My Mustang has wayyyy more grip than the gold one in the video, as evidenced by 10 second faster lap times. Therefore, it wouldn't matter which line I took, the trip thru 14/14A/15 will be quicker. Same for the gold Mustang vs the Marquis. If he had followed the Marcus thru there, he still would have been up his ***. It's not comparing d!cks any more than it's comparing lines. It's comparing cars and drivers, which is not fair.

We will use the traqmate to settle this once and for all next event (using same car and driver), and will report the findings here. Of course, this will only apply to THAT car and driver, YMMV.

MoodDude

One comment about 14A - I found that sacraficing the line for a great set up for 15 worked the best for me. Since 15 has a long straight after it, it was more important for me to get maximum exit speed out of 15 than what line I took on 14A. So what line you take here depends on a lot of factors, especially what line you want to take on 15.
Now is this right for everyone - no! That is why it is fun to sit in the passanger seat of a great driver and have a great driver sit in your passanger seat. They will see something you don't and you can test to see if it works for you. That is why we are in DE and not racing.

And who is measuring anything, we are in DE - not racing. That why I find it pointless to quote what my lap times where. All that is important to me is learning and having fun, and I was able to both of these at Barber! And I think TA2 was too - that is why I saw a big smile on his face in the paddock all the time.

vette6autox

[QUOTE=MoodDude

And who is measuring anything, we are in DE - not racing. That why I find it pointless to quote what my lap times where. All that is important to me is learning and having fun, and I was able to both of these at Barber! And I think TA2 was too - that is why I saw a big smile on his face in the paddock all the time.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. It is a D.E. But I will say this,that the more track time you do and the better driver you become, at some point times are important all around the track to see where you and your car is slower or faster so that a driver can compare notes to improve upon. David

SilverEIGHT

My friends, please don't bail on this discussion just because it is heated. You have to admit that when the statement was made "Simple physics my friends, lap times talk bullsh$t walks." that it opened a can of worms. I expected that statement to draw a response, and it did.

I do think that discussions like this one are good as it does bring out things that I otherwise would not have known. It also brings others into the discussion that we have never met online or at the track... yet! I suspect we may have another visitor or two before it's over with.

I changed my post above to reflect it as a quote from Rob Whitener of Roar Racing, with his permission.

996TTcab

For what its worth, the guy in the black 997 with the GT3 aero kit should have been in a novice or intermediate class. The guy in the silver Z06 should have also been in the novice or intermediate class. Both of them were MUCH slower than their cars capabilities. I would guess they were driving at about 7/10s max.

That is great about the suspension improvements. Definitely got your monies worth.

I generally agree that the wider line should be better. That corner is a compromise corner and the key is what ever gets you out of the next corner with a higher exit speed. So little time would be lost here provided you maximum your exit speed exiting the next corner.

I actually talked to a couple of pro racers at Laquna Seca this weekend about Barber, both of whom teach at Skip Barber. I heard different lines for both this corner and 2 or the carousel.

I ran both lines through here and my exit speed from 15 was the same from either line. I just trial brake the tighter line to the apex and I threshold, come off, settle and turn in on the wider line but I cannot fully accelerate from the apex off either line due to the compromise so I am not sure the wider arc is necessary. I actually think my average speed my be higher with the trial brake than with the threshold brake before settle and turn in.

To me, I think the jury is out on this one until I run through there with my data logger.

996TTcab

Awesome. Thanks alot.

996TTcab

Yikes. Did anyone say anything about you guys getting out of the car or was the session over. I have seen entire sessions black flagged when someone off the track gets out. A safety risk. Be careful.

TorqueAholic

I am sorry guys but that is the such a load

Hey Robert, you should be one to talk about being off-line: After seeing how you got Silver's car into a tank slapper out of the hairpin, and almost got into another one down the corkscrew, your "line" and performance as an instructor takes a lot away from your credibility my friend.

That lack of control behind the wheel of somebody else's daily driver is either poor judgement or it is a lack of talent / skills controlling the vehicle.

Either way that does nothing for your credibilty as an "Expert" on track.

Of course my car was far faster than the Marquis but you missed the point. The point was you had that thing all over the track and that is simply not the fast way around.

I did not blast by you on exit because :

1) I stayed in 4th gear the whole time , why bother down-shifting in 3rd with a boat like that in front of me?
2) I had to brake and postpone getting on the gas to avoid rear-ending you.

Here is what I saw on track: Most cars in my group were

1) Hundreds of lbs lighter than my car
2) Possessed the same or much more HP
3) Had a far more sophisticated chassis

I passed most of them.

If I was that far off line as Robert suggests somebody should have sucked my headlights off around those corners and that simply did not happen.

As for the line, I agree that in a race being wide could possibly open the door for somebody to slip in on the inside but HPDE is not a race.

I tried many lines and that one worked best because of the setup for the next corner. It is entirely possible that being closer in might work too, I just did not see it happen as shown on my video

SilverEIGHT

I got out to screw the tow hook in the rear. Which is a good point. Always put the tow hooks in place before you get on track. Yet another lesson learned.

EDIT:
Only after the tow truck pulled up!

MoodDude

[QUOTE=vette6autox]You are correct - but I don't need to tell everyone what my times where at a DE event to say "see me and my car are faster than you". That is what I was meaning. Times should be a learning tool for the driver and his car, and help to figure out how to reduce them.

L8APEX

TA2, you must remember, that just because a car is lighter, more powerful and has a better chassis, all that means squat when the guy behind the wheel doe snot know how to get everything out of the car that the car has to offer. Not everyone gets as competitive as you do in a DE event. So just keep that in mind. Trying to pass everyone out on the track can blind you to what you are really there for.

There are good things and good points in the previous posts, it makes no sense to me that you turn your back to that, and insist that your method is the best, theirs is wrong. Same goes for everyone else arguing about line. Is it a DE line or a race line, they are different, and there are a million ways around any one track, the best one is the one where there is not another car already, in a race. In a DE event, sometime the best line can be the safe line. We learned that at Roebling in September. So keep in mind what kind of event it is, and go from there.


That said, I am with Silver...

SilverEIGHT

Hey, don't hog the popcorn!

L8APEX

Free Refills!!

TorqueAholic

Actually most people made some good points and I do understand that there are many ways to get around the track. Part of the reason for the argument is to see what people are going to say

Things got a bit out of hand with the reponses ( including mine) .

As for the reasons for my going to those events, the real reasons are to be able to put my car and my driving through their paces and hang out with you guys. About the slower traffic, it is most of the time more a hindrance than a gratification. That's why I always try to get to grid early and be in the front: to get some clear track.

Of course, sometimes it's fun for me to pass much faster cars in a less capable car, if the faster car is not too badly driven, that's a pretty good indication that whatever I'm doing is actually working. That was precisely the point I and TA were making earlier.

The best times are when I am following somebody slighty faster when I can follow long enough to learn something

REALTorque

Have to agree with you on that one. I have chastised Robert on several occasions for the way he drives other peoples cars. I think he always thought I was just joking. However he's a successful business owner who I'm sure will pay for the damage he is inevitably going to do to someones car.

That said, lap times in the 1:50's are not going to impress too many people. They certainly don't indicate whether or not you have the fast line down.


However, you're line approaching the tunnel hill is definitely a problem. Not at the slooow speeds you're going thru there, but if you ever get fast right there, you'll see what I mean. If you're into the gas all the way up that hill like the fast guys, the car will become strangely unsettled as you crest that bump. Next thing you know, you're 2 (or more) off.

Hope this helps

Tom

SilverEIGHT

Pardon my ignorance... where is tunnel hill?