MoodDude

No - a RX7.

MoodDude

Here is a question I have always wondered - what determines a momentum car and a horsepower car?
Does the car have to be under a certain weight to qualify as a momentum car? Does a car have to be over a certain power before it is a horsepower car?
Or is it a wieght to power ratio?
That being said - is an Fomula One car a horsepower car or a momentum car? All I know is I want to drive one!

One thing I know for sure - is I like Torque more than anything - so my goal is to have a Torque Car!

Stop&TurnFreak

Wow, just wow......and still, it goes on.....

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

well the paries concerned failed the damn test. I figued the parties concerned could not recognize their own paticular type of humor. Got ya!
Now if yall want to really talk momentum driving vs hp driving ---OK
olddragger

REALTorque

Believe me, the thought occurred to me that it was tongue-in-cheek, but I was too fixated on the sheer stupidity of the statements.

BTW, spell checker be yore friend.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Dont have spell checker, dont want spell cecker(lol)--I hope you can muddle your way through--if you need help --sorry --you probably dont. No dis intended.
# 2 on my other post I intentionally did not say to see if vette 6 would take the bite. Thats all. I pretty sure you understand what I am trying to say but others --I dont know.
I guess some people use various threads for taylor made internet shudoko.
I don't usually speak like this but one of the weakness of this type of communication is that the only thing you have to go on is the words and the structure of same, the other person chooses to use. Communication is a tricky thing.
olddragger

Elara

Guys, kep it civil, please. We're starting to get complaints about this thread. Those of you visiting here from other forums- we don't tolerate our members trolling on other boards, and we expect the same courtesy from other forum's members as well.

SilverEIGHT

Guys, when Elara speaks, we listen. I'd like to keep this thread alive as it has some very interesting things going on. The wording of your post and thought in its presentation can make this a positive contribution thread. I don't know who complained and I don't care but let's keep alive.

L8APEX

not to get myself in trouble, but who other than the people reading and posting in this thread would complain about it. Just curious, if someone is not posting in this thread, and is not a part of it, and they have taken issue with it, then they should just stop reading it, rather than complain to someone, unless the person that has the problem is a mod.

Again, not trying to **** off a mod, I am just curious.

SilverEIGHT

Elara, I started the thread and I don't have a problem with it for what it's worth. It's actually been very entertaining. No threats are being made and no one is talking about other peoples mothers. There is an air of antagonistic tones that could be tempered and I think everyone here is capable of handling that... right guys? ... nod your head and say yes!

RSchoeni

Apologies if this offends the delicate sensibilities of the waxing nancy's. But folks who take tracking seriously are getting valuable driving tips in this thread, for free.

David L was my PBOC instructor at Barber this past Feb (or was it March??) Rainy, freezing cold, and I show up with an FFR Cobra (open cars can really suck). He showed me lines and techniques that utilize the speed my car can carry through corners, and it's acceleration out. I gotta say that a ride with David is an e-ticket experience

I'm still on my first season in the solo groups. You guys probably have forgotten more than I know. But I want to add a couple comments after watching the in-car vids (mainly from torque addict). I think I noticed him coasting or feathering the gas through T12, to prevent running out of room at the top of the tunnel hill. I try to stay more to the left , turn in later and that seems to let me get on the gas sooner. I subscribe to the shorter, inside line at T14, unless I'm behind another inside line guy. Then, I'll go a little wider just to get into his mirror and let him know I'm there.

At T2, I stay about 3/4 car width off the inside curb. At T3 turn-in I lift off the gas briefly to rotate the rear. Seems let me get on the gas sooner. I don't have lap times to back this up...I'm just a noob knucklehead

Regarding an instructor parking a student's car in the sandbox...damn. I can think of very few reasons for that. If I the student, allow you to drive my car for a lap or two, the purpose would be for you, the instructor to get comfortable with the vehicle's safety and for you to show me the course. I'd expect you to drive within the group level that I'm in, not at your 100/200 Red group level. If you want to show your mad skillz, offer me a ride in your car please. This should be taken as constructive criticism for future reference.

A final, postive note: I'd like to share a link I found. You RX8 guys will like this: D sport racer, TURBO'D RENESIS (mid-rear engine config) Hewland sequential gearbox !!

Right click, save as
http://www.diasio.com/D962R/d962rturbo.mov

See you guys on track!
___________________

Bob S

04 RX-8.....in the garage
FFR Cobra..on track
03 Ford SuperCrew &
20'Pace...just for haulin

SilverEIGHT

That would be a hoot to drive. I want a transmission like that in my 8.

996TTcab

That is abit confusing. Are you guys talking about Barber? Trail braking can be the quicker average speed in certain types of corners depending on the car. I woudl think that trail braking or constant level brake turning would be preferably on a decreasing radius turn, although this may not be true trail braking because you are not braking to the apex and getting back on the throttle prior to apex if done correctly.

I also believe that trail braking would be preferably in corners at the end of high speed straights. Trail braking may be preferable also where you have compromise corners where exit eped is not the prime consideration.

I do not believe trail braking preferable where you have a simple turn leading into a straight. Here the bias would be toward an earlier throttle application resulting from a threshold brake well prior to the turn in with a pause to settle prior to turn in and maintenance throttle at turn in until you can accellerate.

That being said, corners 1 (especially with light front ends like 911s), 5, and 14a are all good canidates for trial braking. Turns 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, and 15 are not really good turns for trial braking. I am actually on full throttle all the way through 6, 9, 10, 13 and 15 and have maintenance throttle or a bit higher through 7, 11, and 12.

SilverEIGHT

I think that all came from a comment I made about learning how to trail brake into turn 6 at Road Atlanta which brought a couple responses about that was not the proper way to take turn 6. OD responded then REALTorque came back with the reponse you quoted.

This is kinda how this stuff has been developing. So, to keep it the context of a learning experiance for me since I'm not as advanced as you guys. One of my instructors from Panoz (Road Atlanta) drives a Spec Miata. He told a group of us that he enters T6 somewhere in the 110 range and exits around 85 and trail brakes the entrance. I've always used my brakes in a straight line and powered up at the apex. Since I'm not an experianced driver I would just like to give it a try.

996TTcab, sounds to me that you would trail brake into T6 at RA?

vette6autox

RSchoeni,how have you been? This guy has a realy nice cobra,and yea that was some really bad weather. I had to buy a rain suit. My track buds thought I had lost my mind instructing him in the rain, but he paid good money to do the event and I wasn't going to let a little rain stop the fun. I have told many of my track friends and students that I get as much enjoyment out of instructing as I do driving. RS, did youget your problem fixed whith the tire rub? David P.S. I have a friend here in B'ham that has a factory GTP lights Mazda. He told me IIRC, that he has 1 of 2 factory cars. He said the car was clocked at 198mph! The car is being restored so he can participate in some HRS stuff.

996TTcab

Ah yeah, I was on the wrong track. Turns 6 and 10a at Road Atlanta are trail brake canidates. See my criteria above, except 6 is a high speed corner and has a fairly large radius with banking. I might not use trial brake at 6 if 7 was not as close. It also depends on the car, how much speed you carry into 6 and how much speed you need to scrub off in 6. If your car is slow and turns well (spec Miata), maybe you need only brush the brakes, use the banking and keep a fairly constant speed until setting up for 7.

If you do try and trail brake your car on 6, just be smooth with a gradual easing off the brakes as you approach apex to keep car settled. If a fast exit speed was the key on turn 6, I would probably threshold, settle the car before turn in, and use the banking to build up speed. Otherwise, trail braking in theory allows you to maintain a higher average speed through this turn and turn 7. Anyone have a data logger comparing the two methods on this turn.

vette6autox

996TT, were you at Babers last month? That is how I do it in my car in 6. I theshold brake as you said. The good thing about that turn is that it has super elevated (banked) on drivers left. David

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

appreciate your post 996T--Let me jump in and explain how I came by believing that trailbraking turn 6 is to our advantage. Our last NASA w/e at RA we had the pleasure of kinda being adopted by the owner of ROAR racing--absoulutely a great guy. He let us park in his designated area use his shelter during all that dang rain on Saturday---anyway you get the picture. On Saturday night we had a great time at a members RV staying on track and ROAR came and spent some time with us. Naturally things got around to running the RX at RA. This was after women , football, coupn pants etc, etc subjects were exhausted. Actually that didnt take long. He shared with us, as well as Billy--one of his drivers(uncle is the head of MazdaSpeed USA, 19 yrs old and really a great talent.) a lot of data acquisition(no spell check) they had obtained with their RX8 at this track. This is some of what I remember:
1- The Rx does not gain any ground by acclerating through turn 6. The RX8 has great brakes use them to trailbrake through this turn
A: to try and gain going into the turn by the late braking/trail braking and easy breathing off approaching turn 7(easier said than done)
B: this keeps the chassis better settled(no rapid on and off type chassis changes) and allows the approach for the more important turn 7 to be as good as you can get.
c: your downshift is done and you have eliminated one braking zone (the one used on turn 7 if you acclerate through turn 6, --yes I know the turn 6 braking zone is extended but is still shorter than the both would be and the total time on the brakes is longer if you brake for turn 6 and 7 than trailing braking 6.
Which brings us to turn 7. We all know that the sooner you can get on full throttle there the better off you will be--that one exit corner influences a lot of things at RA and for us torque challanged guys. it is much harder to recover from a poor exit there as the straight is not our friend.
And that was the story on how I came to learn more about turn 6 at RA.
AND he also said the same applies for turn 10A. The RX 8 will not gain anyground after midcorner of 10 A--(again too torque challanged--the steep hill) speeds much higher but if you have the talent you will gain a lot of ground by the braking late/ trailbraking 10A.

He also told us about a much earier braking zone for turn 1(works for me!) and a middle to inside approach in going under the bridge, a wider line(that I had been talking about already--ilearned SOMETHING) in exiting turn 1 . Really smart guy and really professional in his approach to running a track. I would be an idiot if i didnt listen.
My knowledge doesnt mean I am able to do it exactly right--but at least I have a goal.
Appreciate your post and what do you think?
Olddragger

SilverEIGHT

If you are talking to me... Yep, Robert was my instructor.

vette6autox

I thought I was talking to 996TTin post 443. Your are not one in the same ,are you?

Stop&TurnFreak

My only experience with this topic doesn't really apply. With the Evo, the only way to get the car to rotate mid-corner, was to trail-brake the car into the corner, and load the front with a ton of weight. It worked pretty well, but definitely wasn't the 'fastest' way to get around. After going to coil-overs, and upgrading the rest of the suspenion and frame with better components, I never really played much with it again.

Elara

And that's why it's still open . Thanks SilverEIGHT!

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

hey vette 6 --I think I remember seeing your car at RA--if it is the one I remember it did sound good coming down the straight and i could see that turn 12 (my nemasis) was not slowing you down at all.
Glad all the fussing----(?) is over. Now I will not have to ask my teenagers for more big words that I can use in my post. They love when I do that.
As far as the right line goes---just go where the car takes you--and it will with enough time and listening. Ok I quit now --beginning to sound like (Hey Blake--whats that word you use for a old fart, long bearded wise man?--Oh yea Sage--thanks)---- a Sage.
olddragger

RSchoeni

Vette6,
I'm doing good, thanks for asking. I still owe you a beer or three for taking me out in that weather (ankle-deep water sloshing around inside the cockpit and no wipers!!). I got the cobra from the painter the week of that DE and did a quick tune and front alignment . Guess I blew the ride height adjustment ,huh?.

Now, it's setup like a go cart, and is geared right for Barber. But it runs out of poop(hits the rev limiter) about 3/4 down the long straights at Sebring. Need a taller R/P ratio for the long courses.

BTW Thank you to the mods and forum regulars for letting us guests onboard.

See you all at the track,
Bob S

SilverEIGHT

My bad... sorry! Nope, not the same.