TrackAddict

I did try many variations in that part of the track starting with the left turn in and finishing with the apex on the right hand part of the kink. I settled on a relatively early apex in the left hander and a early/mid apex point in the right hander. I breathed off the gas for corner entry and then was able to stay flat for the rest of the complex. I let the car track out but could have pinched it if needed or carried more speed through the corners. I chose to not go any faster as I had seen so many people go wide there in the Grand Am races.

SilverEIGHT

L8 and I watched as several went wide in just a few minutes this weekend.

SilverEIGHT

VIDEO:
OK, against my better judgment I'm going to post this clip. I just can't keep it to myself. I may be sorry later.

Alright... talk amongst yourselves!

Warm Up Lap!!!

TorqueAholic

I went through the same process as TA by experimenting with all of the above and flirting with the grass in more than a few occasions. I finally settled on late apex for both based on stability / grip balance through the turn, capability for flooring it on the way out, and RPM's into the next braking zone.

It's interesting to see that we both ended-up with the "text book" strategy for our respective cars.

SilverEIGHT

TA, that is precisely what my instructor taught me. At first it seemed way too early but as I got used to it the transation was very smooth. I stayed off all concrete in that complex.

TrackAddict

I see 1 main reason you spun and 1 secondary reason.
Main reason - you were off line going into turn 14. You really need to track out toward the concrete edge near pit entry and get your braking done in a reasonably straight line. It is almost impossible and not practical to be going perfectly straight while braking before turn in on 14 but you really need to open up the steering and track out to maximize the radius for turn 14. The end result was you were going in too fast for this corner especially since you made it tighter than it needed to be. When trying to slow down more, the rear tires got unloaded and the car came around on you. Thank God for the gravel trap.
Secondary reason - this was your out lap on cold tires. If you could have gottten away with it in lap 4 or 5, you had much less grip on lap 1.

TorqueAholic

Saw the Vid: HOLLEE SH%T BOY, that was pretty darn close to the tire wall!

Just like TA said

Seems to me like it was a simple enough mistake though. You did not go wide enough (did not turn on or next to the cement strip on the far left of the track) and you got cought in the decreasing turn with too much speed and not enough grip.

I am surprised your instructor had not drilled that particular turn into your routine.
As for the tank slapper you did not unwind the steering wheel quickly enough after the initial correction and you then became a passenger..

I had a pretty spectacular tank slapper comming out of the turn 2 carousel earlier that day straight out of the pits on cold tires as well. For me however I somehow got lucky and saved it after a couple of tail wags. TA was right behind and saw the whole thing. In my case it simply cought me off guard as I was going so slow, I never thought the car would do that and I had a sloppy hand on the wheel.. Lesson learned.

L8APEX

best part of that video...

the first word out of his mouth...****.

silver, you were doing it again, playing with your shifter a lot. looked like you were in the desired gear a few times, and still fooled around with the shifter. only thing I saw, since I have no idea about driving the track.

TorqueAholic

I missed the shifter bit there is an IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP for this case: If you screwed-up the shift:

---> Drive the car with both hands on the wheel safely around the corner first
---> Fix the gear issue second !

It seems too simple to mention but my first instructor told me that one and said that a surprising number of folks actually crash because they screw-up the gear shift, focus on the stick and not the steering, then loose it.

SilverEIGHT

TA & TA2, now that you mention it, I remember TA2's video and you told me to track out and I even mentioned to you I could see you going straight just before pit in to get your braking done. This is a case where I had to follow my instructor’s line. Maybe he can join in and shed some light better than I can but I will try. I'm not saying this is the safest route but it is apparently the faster route. On every occasion that I was coming up on someone in turn 14a, we gained ground by driving mid track in 14. I have some footage I will show you that is very interesting that demonstrates this.

Now that I've been able to look at it frame by frame, the mistake it looks to me was as you say TA, being off line. In frame by frame you can see the grass coming in on the right side of the windshield. Looks like my *** end was moving too much at that point and I tried to correct. This move was not radically different than previous or even my last session which was pretty well controlled.

The approach to Turn 14 complex:
Starting from the top of the hill, stay straight for a very short distance, turn in just a tad late onto and using all of the concrete. Once past the concrete on the inside of the track you were basically committed to the rear of the car moving out and then modulating the gas for the turn into 14a. Tracking out to mid track and setting the car for the decelerating turn. It was one long curve with no abrupt braking at all.

If you think about it, it makes sense to make a turn instead of tracking out two car widths to the concrete and making a late turn. That scrubs your power but brakes your momentum.... I know you guys are 10 seconds faster than me and or Solo but try to see Robert's thinking for a moment. Also, you guys didn't crap your pants in the kitty litter like I did either. Any who, that's the best explanation I have of what I should have done but I think it is such a needle threading approach and I didn't have the fine tuning down, especially for a warm up lap as you said TA... stupid mistake but a great learning experience.

Now, I never did go outside to the concrete as you told me to do and your video showed TA2. So I have no clue what that line was like. Wish I could have tried it a couple times to get the feel. Guess that will be next trip.

Reminds me of the instruction I had from Road Atlanta that my required line for turn 1 was to stay left all the way up the hill to turn 2.

I’ve been thought to take the line your instructor tells you to take. That's what NASA teaches us to do even if it is different because we need to learn different lines. I'm not defending my actions, just pointing out what happened. If one of you guys had been my instructor, I would have been heading to the concrete in 14a.

I think this is a great tool for learning and discussing. I'm glad I posted. I'd like to see if anyone else approaches 14a the way my instructor does.

Thanks TA and TA2.

SilverEIGHT

Hummm, L8 & TA2, I didn't notice that. I will go back and see what you are talking about.

SilverEIGHT

Nope, I was in 3rd gear with no shifting going on. Both hands firmly on the steering wheel the hole time. I think L8 is referring to the hairpin when I was going slow and dicking around with it like a little kid that just found his peepee for the first time. No speed at that time.

TorqueAholic

The concrete patch to the left thing.. Trust me on this: it's definitely faster. Nobody could put daylight on me around there with the late turn. By nobody I mean full-on race cars, everything.. Especially the ones that did not go to the concrete, those I reeled in everytime.

Here is the reason: 14A is a classic compromise corner. That means the name of the game here is not maximizing speed through the corner, what you want is optimize placement coming out of 14A (meaning staying tight to the right) to max-out speed through for 15 which is one of the most important corner on the track since it leads to a long straight.

Here is how I did it:

1- Since I let the car track out I would actually floor it from the concrete patch on the apex of 13 all the way into moderate trail braking setting up for 14A. That move reeled-in a whole lot of cars.

2-Going wide and late sets me up nicely to stay tight coming out of 14A again with my foot on the floor (mostly). If you don't go wide you cannot carry speed, stay tight, and have your foot in it. I dont' care what you drive, simple physics.

Again, I reeled-in guys that did not go wide because while they are forced to balance gas and a handful of understeer / oversteer (or spin ..) I can casually floor it and fill their mirrors full of gold Mustang nose and blue headlights.

3- With the aformentionned setup by being tight inside coming out of 14A I am ideally positionned to the far right entering 15, carrying a ton of speed and gettin' ready to floor it early again to blast on to the straight and blow by un-suspecting Porsches, Corvettes, etc.

I tested that one during my 6 hours on track with MCA and the whole weekend with PBOC with very consistent results: Blue flag for the guy in front of me.

SilverEIGHT

Great breakdown of the complex. I want to go back and do it your way. The above statement is for real! it is definitely a balancing act.

SilverEIGHT

VIDEO:
This one is a couple laps around the track with my instructor driving a RX-8 for the first time.

I peed myself twice on this one! Robert driving SilverEIGHT'S car

SilverEIGHT

VIDEO:
A couple laps around the track and passing a Lotus Elise. My vids will be much slower and less exciting than TA and TA2's so I will not bore you with a bunch of slow laps but it will give you a good view of the track with a rock solid camera mount.

I'll just post all three of my vids here in case someone wants to look without fishing for them. This will be all the vids I post from this event.

A couple laps around Barber Motorsports Park

Robert (Instructor) driving SilverEIGHT'S car

Warm Up Lap!!!

SilverEIGHT

Here's an email from my instructor (posted with his permission) on the turn 14 complex. I think it makes for good/important discussion.

==============================================

... If they're going up to pit in,
easier/safer, but just plain slower. That has been proven OVER & OVER
again. The car doesn't need to go that far up the track to make a 90 degree
turn and if you modulate the throttle through there to stay on the mid track
line or if nec. touch the brakes to help the car rotate then you can pass at
least 1 sometimes 2 cars there. For some reason a lot of schools, therefore
instructors teach this line, for the less experienced its "safer" but my
view is if its virtually impossible for the car to get damaged there, why
not practice a technique you would be hard pressed to learn safely anywhere
else, at either BMP or RA. Trail braking is even difficult to master on an
autoX course because trail braking is tough to do unless you're going
"pretty" fast. The kitty litter incident became very obvious when we nearly
did it again during the next session. If the car is rotating towards the
apex already then there is no reason to hit the brakes. If the car is
rotating towards the apex then it is obviously going slow enough to not need
anymore brake. If not, then you have to trail brake some to point the car
that way. You were pointing the car very well without brakes and then hit
the brakes too. As far as being close to the tires we weren't, that's the
reason we were practicing there and in the carousel. Slower speeds in those
areas, steering with the throttle or the brakes is required, and the run off
is very good. If you remember we weren't even close to the tires. Some of
this can be tough to tell by watching a video, but your right rear was
barely in the gravel...which means we were a long way from the tires. If
the track didn't have a trap there then I would have a different approach to
practicing there. But, that is still a good place.

I hope this helps, feel free to copy and paste this. If any of your buddies
are "non-believers" then tell em to hop in the Marcus next time, I'll show
em the midtrack line.

Robert

L8APEX

I will have to watch your vids on Monday while I am laid up after surgery. For now, two more installments, on the only thing that worked out photography wise on Sunday.

SilverEIGHT...


MoodDude...


Ok, enjoy. I am off to Albany for the holiday, you fellas have a Happy Turkey day, spent with family and friends.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

i bet you have realized that you have learned a lot after you have had a chance to get over these occurances!!! The one in which your instructor was "drifting" made me "whoop" out loud!!!!LOLOLOL!! And he was right --he had to stay in the throttle!
Lessons that I see
1- car is a little more snappy with your new suspension! Evident on the 2nd recovery try on your spin
2- overcorrection is VERY easy to do--like your instructor says if she is a going to the apex and you have room- yeeeeehaaaaaa! Its drift time baby!
3- stiffer suspension +the 615's are differant than the stock shocks with 615's--maybe my imagination but i think your car handles differently than TA's

Barber looks like a hard track to run. The quick elavation changes would make me nervous.
Lots of gear changes it seems.
top speed about 100?
glad you got your spin in a safe run off area!
As far as line discussion--you have to learn to drive where you are at, no such thing as the correct line for all situations.
Just wait until you drive Roebling!
Yall had a LOT of open track!
olddragger

TorqueAholic

1- Actually, TA1 and I swapped cars car for a session and the "party" line seemed pretty good in the 8 as well.

2- Barber is not that hard, it's a lot of fun and to me not as intimidating as RA I push harder there than I do at RA

3- True, but some lines do work better than others. In any case, it makes for interesting discussions!

OD, you have to try Barber next time we go you'll like it.

996TTcab

Marco in the CRX was not running Hoosiers. He had a cheap set of used street tires (off brand like Hankook) he purchased off ebay. We were constantly kidding him about his tires.

Here is video showing the RX8 in the gravel being pulled out. You can from the video that he is pretty fall from the wall. A lot further from the wall than when my instructor spun my car 250 feet up the grass embankment stopping 5 to 10 feet from the wall off the second chicane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogwOmjkm1uY

L8APEX

where you the one drivign the blue Elise? I think I have a couple good picturs of you in the kink too. You were driving the daylights out of that little car. Looks like you had as much trouble with 14a as Silver did.

TorqueAholic

"when my instructor spun my car 250 feet up the grass embankment stopping 5 to 10 feet from the wall off the second chicane."


Hey 996TT, I was coming up on a dark blue Elise through the kink one session and as I was getting on the binders setting up for 11 I saw him loose it right before entering 12 then went up on the grass hill was that you guys ?

It looked pretty spectacular from my vintage point in the Mustang. I was really disapointed about the spin, I was looking forward to see if we could play for a few corners..

MoodDude

L8Apex - great pictures - I want a copy!!!!!

996TTcab

That was us. He was still on cold tires and trying to show me a different line. People not used to the Elise run into problems on several fronts. The tires take longer to heat up because of the lower starting pressures and the light weight of the car. People also get lulled into a false sense of security because the car feels so neutral at 9/10s and you feel like you can do anything. I had a PDE driver almost spin my car at Putnam three weeks ago and a PCA instructor did spin another guy's Elise that same day at Putnam on an easy part of the track. I told my buddies that I thought he would lose it. I just had no idea he would lose it as bad as he did.